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The Land of the Free? Not so Much!


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#181    Mobhitmusicman

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:52 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 23 February 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Its not as easy as all that eight. The amendment says congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exorcise thereof. It is established as a right, a freedom according to the bill of rights,  is not to be infringed. The state has no power to side step the constitution. Heck the federal government exorcises powers over the state NOT directly supported by the constitution (which of course is unconstitutional). Just look at Pot laws. States have made smoking pot legal in some cases. But that doesnt stop the federal government from raiding folks who grow, and sell for the state. And that isnt even specificaly granted to the fed. Freedom to gather for religious purposes very much is. In fact it was top priority, being the very first amendment.

Anyone who knows me here knows I am all for state rights. But in the case of religious freedom, it is strictly a federal matter. Cali knows this, and thats why they backed off. They knew they had no case.


And the title of this thread isnt off at all. There very much was a attempt to make home bible studies illegal. Just listen to what they directly said.

The assembly activities associated with the church, including Bible studies, church leadership meetings and church fellowship activities are not permitted,” wrote Mike Milillo, the city’s senior planner.

This statment doesnt even try to make a argument regarding the number of people allowed, parking, traffice, noise ect ect. You could take this to mean you couldnt have a single person over your privatly owned home for a bible study.

No One Is trampling on Freedoms, More to the Story then meets the eye. Jeez no one can do anything slightly "off" in this country without it being an Attack on Christianity. Get over yourselves!!! You have it made!! No one stands up for Pagans when someone discriminates them. Christians wanna stop the building of the Mosque near ground zero, Christians want to ban Gay Marriage, Christians want to stop the rights of women to have abortions. But one little move against 40 Christians  and It's a war on Christianity. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES, PAGANS and JEWS were here long before Christianity, and No one NO ONE stands up for our RIGHTS!!

I Don't mean to offend, but I am seriously tired of people and these crusades saying they have every right in the world, screw everyone else because we Believe in this and they believe in something different so they are wrong. Yeesh!! this is why I don't come into this section of the boards!

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#182    eight bits

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 01:39 PM

Quote

Its not as easy as all that eight.
Nobody said it was easy, preacherman. Zoning is tricky stuff.

Two points: First, my example of the Iraq War Veterans biweekly bash wasn't casually chosen. That Constitution, one line of which you have clearly mastered, has many other lines as well. Look no further than the rest of the paragraph:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A social club, like the IWV, has as much right as a church to come together in a residential zone. Whatever is done in the one case must be done in the other. The church group cannot be favored ahead of the social club because it is a church group, nor treated worse, either.

It is perfectly obvious that the state can regulate the activities of the IWV. It follows that the state has the same powers with respect to this church. And the members of the social club have the same rights as the members of the church. Identical rights and identical powers all around.

Everything is the same. Which brings us to:

Second, the lie that the zoning administrators "lost" simply extends the original lie that the zoning administrators tried to shut down the church in the first place. The zoning administrators, the ones in the real world, wanted only that the property owner recognize the claims of the law on the non-habitation uses of their property, which is located in a residential zone. And yes, the scope of the administrators' concern is all non-habitation uses of the property. Duh.

When the administrators got what they actually sought, they did what they would do for the IWV. They dropped the token fine, stopped the liability escalation clock, and arranged to pursue an orderly resolution of the problem, which is ongoing (a situation likely to persist, too; zoning wrangles can be interminable, but even a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, in this case, the church admitting that it needs to conform with the law just like everyone else).

In any case, home bible studies are legal in the United States. The subtitle of the thread says otherwise. Its author knows that the truth is otherwise. The subtitle of this thread is a lie.

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#183    HerNibs

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:26 PM

View Posteight bits, on 23 February 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Nobody said it was easy, preacherman. Zoning is tricky stuff.

Two points: First, my example of the Iraq War Veterans biweekly bash wasn't casually chosen. That Constitution, one line of which you have clearly mastered, has many other lines as well. Look no further than the rest of the paragraph:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A social club, like the IWV, has as much right as a church to come together in a residential zone. Whatever is done in the one case must be done in the other. The church group cannot be favored ahead of the social club because it is a church group, nor treated worse, either.

It is perfectly obvious that the state can regulate the activities of the IWV. It follows that the state has the same powers with respect to this church. And the members of the social club have the same rights as the members of the church. Identical rights and identical powers all around.

Everything is the same. Which brings us to:

Second, the lie that the zoning administrators "lost" simply extends the original lie that the zoning administrators tried to shut down the church in the first place. The zoning administrators, the ones in the real world, wanted only that the property owner recognize the claims of the law on the non-habitation uses of their property, which is located in a residential zone. And yes, the scope of the administrators' concern is all non-habitation uses of the property. Duh.

When the administrators got what they actually sought, they did what they would do for the IWV. They dropped the token fine, stopped the liability escalation clock, and arranged to pursue an orderly resolution of the problem, which is ongoing (a situation likely to persist, too; zoning wrangles can be interminable, but even a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, in this case, the church admitting that it needs to conform with the law just like everyone else).

In any case, home bible studies are legal in the United States. The subtitle of the thread says otherwise. Its author knows that the truth is otherwise. The subtitle of this thread is a lie.


Excellent.  :)

Christians being targeted and harassed by the government?  Let's see who else feels the same way?

FBI Teaches Agents "Mainstream" Muslims are Violent; Radical

FDLS Being Unfairly Targeted

Jews

Scientologists feel persecuted, heck just about every religious group feels targeted these days.

Muslims targeting Christians, Christians targeting Muslims, atheists targeting all religions.

It's paranoia being fed by the media.  Nothing more.

I stand by my statement that the incident is NOT religiously biased.  It's greed.

Like my example in my neighborhood, it was a nuisance complaint.  The bible study each week increased noise and traffic.  More than what was considered "normal" in a residential area.

Can ANYONE give me the exact citation the Fromm's received?  So far the quoted code is far too broad in definitions.  

This isn't a constitutional violation, it isn't a religious attack, it's a cash strapped community government that screwed up and now has to publicly eat it's own words.

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#184    preacherman76

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:30 PM

View PostHerNibs, on 23 February 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Excellent.  :)

Christians being targeted and harassed by the government?  Let's see who else feels the same way?

FBI Teaches Agents "Mainstream" Muslims are Violent; Radical

FDLS Being Unfairly Targeted

Jews

Scientologists feel persecuted, heck just about every religious group feels targeted these days.

Muslims targeting Christians, Christians targeting Muslims, atheists targeting all religions.

It's paranoia being fed by the media.  Nothing more.

I dont understand how you can call it paranoia nibs. In each of those articles it showed that religious persecution was going on. Especialy the one about the jews on the subject of nazi Germany.



Quote

I stand by my statement that the incident is NOT religiously biased.  It's greed.

Like my example in my neighborhood, it was a nuisance complaint.  The bible study each week increased noise and traffic.  More than what was considered "normal" in a residential area.

Can ANYONE give me the exact citation the Fromm's received?  So far the quoted code is far too broad in definitions.  

This isn't a constitutional violation, it isn't a religious attack, it's a cash strapped community government that screwed up and now has to publicly eat it's own words.

Nibs
I dont know exactly what the citation was. From what I understand it was holding a church service in a residencial neighborhood without a permit. Im nearly certain it said nothing  about noise or traffic. They werent having a concert. I just read comments like,

“The assembly activities associated with the church, including Bible studies, church leadership meetings and church fellowship activities are not permitted,” wrote Mike Milillo, the city’s senior planner.

And I have to believe there is at least the possibility there was intentional descrimination.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#185    preacherman76

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:40 PM

I gotta get back to you later 8. That post is gonna take some disecting ;)

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#186    HerNibs

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:53 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 23 February 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I dont understand how you can call it paranoia nibs. In each of those articles it showed that religious persecution was going on. Especialy the one about the jews on the subject of nazi Germany.




I dont know exactly what the citation was. From what I understand it was holding a church service in a residencial neighborhood without a permit. Im nearly certain it said nothing  about noise or traffic. They werent having a concert. I just read comments like,

“The assembly activities associated with the church, including Bible studies, church leadership meetings and church fellowship activities are not permitted,” wrote Mike Milillo, the city’s senior planner.

And I have to believe there is at least the possibility there was intentional descrimination.


:)  My point was that there isn't a concentrated attack on ONLY christians.  All religions are feeling and many sects are claiming unfair targeting.  (I think I linked the wrong thing on the Jewish groups.  The article I found referred to recent targeting.)

I read the codes that have been quoted and they don't really say anything like what Mr. Milillo said so I'm not sure.

View Postpreacherman76, on 23 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

I gotta get back to you later 8. That post is gonna take some disecting ;)

:)  No worries!  

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#187    Jor-el

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:13 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 22 February 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

It is a general definition that I have looked up  .  and a religious definition... And if it is just a religious definition, then this Christian group would have known that ...Funny how people like to pick out what suits  when they face trouble...    Also  Lest say it is not  any of those..  It was still a matter of a large gathering  done twice a week   with no permit  and so on...

"Here is the church. Here is the steeple. Look inside and see all the people…" Church is one of those words that, I think, generates a lot of tension with its usage. On one hand, the Church is a group of people. This is made clear in passages such as 1 Peter where the Church is referred to as the 'living stones' or in 1 Corinthians as 'the body of Christ'. Scripture also uses other relational metaphors such as referring to the Church as the Bride of Christ for which Jesus returns in Revelation. The Church is a collection of people who in a variety of ways worship, have faith, and ascribe to the Christian belief system.
However, the church is also a building. The church may or may not have a spire, pews, an altar, or stained glass. The church may be old or new   ...........   http://www.transposi...andor-building/

You seem very keen on picking out what you want to tag on to , like  what the legal system says in ref to Church.... ...But other things the legal system may say if it doesn't suit you ..you take a different attitude ....

Fact remains... any group meetings with more than X amount of people regularly  is still  not legal...    More so up to 50 or more done twice a week like they did...  Anyone can complain  and protest the issue   ( which you have done  hence the reason for the OP) ,  but your arguments so far have not been strong enough...... All I can see is someone not wanting to look at other views and the bigger picture .. You have demonstrated this from the moment you posted this OP  to be fair and honest.........But  the laws apply to all... This entire thing is in no way an act of any religious discrimination........

When a law, does not allow you to practice your faith in your own home, no matter the motive given it is religious descrimination. If you are not harming anybody, if you are not annoying your neighbours with singing, shouting or just a ruckus due to the number of people, then it becomes religious descrimination when the authorities fine you and shut you down, especiaaly if the next door neighbour has a troop of scouts over in his backyard ever weekend for a barbecue and the police do NOT act in the same fashion toward them.

As you well know, when one is speaking of religion, one uses the term church to apply to the whole body of believers, it is the church of christ. When we are dealing with legal issues, it is the legal definition that will apply, what exactly are we dealing with here BM, a legal issue or a religious issue?

So please sit down and think about what you are writing...

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#188    Jor-el

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:19 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 22 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

They wouldn't keep happening  if people did it all above board....   And it is not just the US that will act upon it.. I have seen it done over ere a couple of times or more...

Actually  the Christian family I spoke about  earlier in  this thread   ( The Rogers ).. they were doing the same thing...   In my old street,  filled with Christians ..  It was the Christian neighbors that rang in the complaints and  made themselves known.. . .  So it goes to show you, that Christians will in fact make complaints about other Christians ...This is a fact of life..  

It is funny the sec  someone complains about a Christian , it must have been from an anti Christian as voiced by so many biased people...  Singled out  . The same ole line over and over .... When in fact  many Christians will complain about their fellow Christians if they feel they need to.. and that includes for holding  illegal group meetings  regularly in their homes ....

The point is that it was above board and they were fined for it. That the fine was withdrawn later, demonstrates that it was above board. I have never heard of a city council withdrawing a fine if it had a legal standing to proceed...

It is amazing that people don't see this, or they do but it isn't within them to accept the evidence.

Since when does a government authority back down from a battle it can win? Even when they can't, they still proceed in the hope that they can outmaneuver the complainants...

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#189    Jor-el

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:24 PM

View Postsam12six, on 23 February 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

I know, right?!? The opinion that responsible citizens should either settle for or attempt to change a law as opposed to simply breaking it is pretty out there. What can I say? I'm a wild-eyed radical...




I agree with that statement. Do you not agree with the statement that someone who ignores the ramifications of breaking a law should pay the penalties laid down in that law?



When people ignore a law, it's choosing to break the law. Fighting for their freedom would have been speaking out at city council meetings, circulating petitions, trying to change the law. These are local codes we're talking about (as has already been pointed out). Just like the people of the town might pass a law that an elephant can't be tied up in your front yard, they have passed a law that you cannot have a church in your house and defined what they mean by a church.

A person tying an elephant up in his front yard in the face of these laws shouldn't be able to cry martyrdom and anti-elephant haters, a person building a church attached to his house shouldn't be able to cry martyrdom and anti-Christian persecution. (Well, they should be able to do it, the rest of the world should just laugh at them for being stupid).

And the US should not have revolted against the King of England, as laid down by law... wouldn't you say that some things are more important than the laws that govern us?

They should really have remained a loyal colony... or shouldn't they?

The right to freedom, the right to have a bible study in your own home with your family and friends...

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#190    Jor-el

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostCopasetic, on 23 February 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

Jor-el, your posts on this topic seem to indicate you view all American government as the same entity--Its not, you need to get over that if you believe so.

These were, as others have pointed out, local laws put into place by local members of the community.

When people don't like local laws in the states, know what they do? Get elected to their local government to change them. Or propose at city meetings, new legislation to be enacted. If that is too complicated for you, maybe staying out of American government (or in deed, America even) is a good idea for you.

Thank you Copasetic for taking time to inform me of the obvious, it sort of works that way in most of the western world.

It doesn't change the facts that both at the federal, state and the local city level, this "overzealous" attitude by authorities is becoming more evident by the day but only in regards to religious groups, the boy scouts can still meet regularly in the backyard to have a barbecue, you can still meet regularly for your weekly poker night... out on the patio.

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#191    Jor-el

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 February 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

It's polatics copa. The votes go to the most crismatic story, not necesserily to greatest good for freedom. people should be able to do whatever they want with their own property. If it does not directly infringe up on another's, then so be it. There is a price for freedom. If I don't like the neibours junk yard on his front lawn, I can move. There is a slippery slope and it has sliped in California. There certainly needs to be lines, but those lines should be set at protecting freedoms not preferences. I rather like wild plants. Most of them are edible and I consider them beautiful, but in my town if I let my lawn go wild I'll be harassed and evenchally fined. I'm not hurting anyone, or doing anything bad, I just like wild plants instead of useless pretty little flowers and cookie cutter grass.  It's maddening. Can I move... Yes... But so can they. But they would evenchually force me to if I didnt conform. If something is a fire hazard... Ok then.

In absolute agreement...

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#192    Jor-el

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:34 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 23 February 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Yeah, that's one of those "Truth is stranger than fiction" type of things. :P



Mr. Walker...a church is not defined as "any place where people meet to worship" in this county.  The county has a very specific definition of a church:

A church is defined as a location which regularly hosts gatherings of a religious nature of 3 or more people.

It has to host gatherings.  It has to be on a regular basis.  They have to be religious.  They have to consist of three or more people.

That is the legal, working, definition of a church in this county.  Notice that the only mention of location is that there actually has to be one (To be perfectly frank, it is something generally assumed.  Few business entities are metaphorical in nature.)  

You can't just strip away 75% of the requirements, emphasize the one thing that is not defined, and still argue the same point as if you had the same definition.  Legal definitions don't define things for the heck of it; everything they talk about is important (if it is not defined, it is referred to as a "loophole", which is a general word for finding a cheat code out of a particular legal responsibility because someone forgot to define it).

If a definition states the frequency, the nature, and the quantity, it means that these are important to the definition.  If it does not state any requirement regarding the location (beyond y'know...existing), then one cannot assume that there is any requirement for the location.



Tone it back a little, Copa.  ;)

If my family consists of 4 to 6 people, then am I suddenly a church when I pray with them?

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#193    Jor-el

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:42 PM

View PostMobhitmusicman, on 23 February 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

No One Is trampling on Freedoms, More to the Story then meets the eye. Jeez no one can do anything slightly "off" in this country without it being an Attack on Christianity. Get over yourselves!!! You have it made!! No one stands up for Pagans when someone discriminates them. Christians wanna stop the building of the Mosque near ground zero, Christians want to ban Gay Marriage, Christians want to stop the rights of women to have abortions. But one little move against 40 Christians  and It's a war on Christianity. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES, PAGANS and JEWS were here long before Christianity, and No one NO ONE stands up for our RIGHTS!!

I Don't mean to offend, but I am seriously tired of people and these crusades saying they have every right in the world, screw everyone else because we Believe in this and they believe in something different so they are wrong. Yeesh!! this is why I don't come into this section of the boards!

It is not an attack on christianity, that is what people think, but they are mistaken, it is an attack on the freedom of religion..., in this case it just happened to be with christians, but it could just as easily been muslims, Jews or anyone else.

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#194    HerNibs

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:47 PM

In Colorado, most boyscout/girlscout meetings take place at schools or churches.  It was the same in Maine and Pennsylvania.

When my daughter was in girlscouts we used to rotate which parent hosted the special events at their home.

So I don't think it is a good comparison.

I believe this is just a situation that was blown out of proportion.  The city/county/state over reacted and then retracted.  The individuals targeted are using this as a preaching platform as far as I am concerned.  There are means and ways (outlined in the municodes) on how to properly challenge this.

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#195    _Only

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostJor-el, on 23 February 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

When a law, does not allow you to practice your faith in your own home, no matter the motive given it is religious discrimination.

False. That is way off base.

"I think there may be "ghost phenomenon" that may be still not fully understood or dismissed, but that doesn't make it spirits of the dead, anymore than "UFO" means "spaceship" or even "UFO" or "spaceship" is directly related to aliens, or anything else. There is way too much assumption and a baseless reliance on anecdotal lore, like when people assert this or that about the spirit world or the astral plane or Ouija board demons, or religion. I say 'says WHO?'" - Paranormalcy




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