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The Land of the Free? Not so Much!


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#31    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:04 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 19 February 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Are you saying you guys are above the law?

So lets apply the law, no more barbecues over three people, no more poker nights, no more watching football with your buddies in the living room on a regular basis, after all what applies to the goose should also apply to the gander... its only fair after all.

Oh I can include no more garage sales, and of course, no more sleepovers for the youngsters.

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#32    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostJerry Only, on 20 February 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

No, this is a clear cut case of shooting opinions on a news story, without having all of the facts available.

I think we have enough facts available to form an opinion, and it ain't nice where freedom of religion is concerned.

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#33    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:08 PM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 20 February 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

I live in a suburb and I KNOW that it can be really annoying if someone in the neighbor holds a weekly bible study meeting with thirty cars parked outside the street. Since Jor-El lives outside the US he doesn't seem to know the street situations in the US. We don't have any convenient public transportation leading deep into suburbs, period. It's not like people can take a bus and walk to the study meeting place from the bus stop. It doesn't work that way in America. If you want to criticize then do the homework first.

And if one reads the links I posted you will note that all the cars parked inside the property in question without causing congestion in the street.

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#34    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:10 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 February 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

It's so terrible. I responded to MW with a huge list of rediculouse fees, taxes, and regulations then I messed up and erased it all. But land of the free this is no longer,  and we killed all the braves. We are slowly bein  constricted in to a police state that taxes and herasses it citizens so that the only thing we are capable of doing is consuming.

Thst's about become my view after reading these cases... and guess what, it won't stop there and people will clap and praise while its being done.

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#35    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:36 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 20 February 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

That is pretty much what this is.  There are some people, who could be described as having a bias or an agenda, who are promoting the idea that this is a religious issue.  They don't seem to wonder why the local churches are not joining in the protest.  The local churches which, incidentally, follow the local zoning laws and have all their permits.

The links state that the local group does have a church that is in the area and that is appropriately zoned. What is astounding is that a local group of people cannot meet in a private hime that is large enough for the purpose without needing a permit to do so... if anything this is micro-management.

Another aspect is that this ruling only affects people who in fact have a complaint drawn out against them from anothr neighbour. As such the authorities neeed to investigate the occurence, this was not done, not even a phone call. They simply recieved a fine to pay.

Now what exactly did the neighbour complain about?

It wasn't parking, it wasn't jamming the streets, it wasn't inordinate noise, it was because there was a church next door... even if there wasn't actually one. If there were no bias, this would not have gotten to the stage its gotten.

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#36    The Silver Thong

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:46 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 February 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

So lets apply the law, no more barbecues over three people, no more poker nights, no more watching football with your buddies in the living room on a regular basis, after all what applies to the goose should also apply to the gander... its only fair after all.

Oh I can include no more garage sales, and of course, no more sleepovers for the youngsters.


That would be so true if religion was the government.  Oh wait it`s not.

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#37    eight bits

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:17 PM

Here's what the couple's lawyers say on their website:

http://www.pacificju...-study-shutdown

Quote

City: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Date: 11/22/2011
The Southern California city that issued citations against homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, for holding Bible studies in their home, has reversed course after attorneys for Pacific Justice Institute took the case to court. The city recently dropped its action against the couple and refunded the fines they had paid. However, the city has not yet changed its laws that led to the controversy.

In a letter to the couple, Karen P. Brust, San Juan Capistrano City Manager, who had been working with the Fromms, also stated, “City staff will commence the discussion with the Planning Commission…about the issue of the need to clarify the Land Use Code with respect to places of public assembly and gatherings at single family residences.”
So, as is so often the case, "Fundamentalist Christian" truth turns out to be markedly different than factual truth. I took the trouble to confirm the real facts from a second source,

http://sanjuancapist...change-city-law

It was a zoning dispute, and it will be settled by ordinary, lawful and democratic procedures, consistent with the state and federal constitutions.

And the fact is the OP knew, or ought to have known, that the matter had been settled months ago.

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#38    The Silver Thong

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:33 PM

View Posteight bits, on 20 February 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Here's what the couple's lawyers say on their website:

http://www.pacificju...-study-shutdown


So, as is so often the case, "Fundamentalist Christian" truth turns out to be markedly different than factual truth. I took the trouble to confirm the real facts from a second source,

http://sanjuancapist...change-city-law

It was a zoning dispute, and it will be settled by ordinary, lawful and democratic procedures, consistent with the state and federal constitutions.

And the fact is the OP knew, or ought to have known, that the matter had been settled months ago.


This was a poor me religion is being attacked thing. If the OP was in fact what they intended it would have brought in the first ammendment and case solved.

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#39    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:02 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 20 February 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

That would be so true if religion was the government.  Oh wait it`s not.

Yet that is what you are agreeing to when you say yeah, to this issue, because if they intrude in one area be prepared for them to intrude in all areas...

One day, you'll be applying for a permit just so you can have a few friends over to watch a game...

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#40    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:14 PM

View Posteight bits, on 20 February 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Here's what the couple's lawyers say on their website:

http://www.pacificju...-study-shutdown


So, as is so often the case, "Fundamentalist Christian" truth turns out to be markedly different than factual truth. I took the trouble to confirm the real facts from a second source,

http://sanjuancapist...change-city-law

It was a zoning dispute, and it will be settled by ordinary, lawful and democratic procedures, consistent with the state and federal constitutions.

And the fact is the OP knew, or ought to have known, that the matter had been settled months ago.

What?... they said exactly the same thing, the fines were repaid and the laws are going to be reviewed. Which means they effectively won the case... which is good news, and thanks for telling us, it seems a number of us did not know, not just me, but thank goodness you are there inform us of the latest events.

There was no markedly different view. It was not a simple zoning dispute and that is what made the authorities backtrack on their position, that is why they are in fact going to review that law. If it were a simple zoning dispute the law would have been on the side of the authorities and the fines would not have been refunded and they would have been forced to stop meeting at that house.

Maybe it was the hundreds of thousands of emails the city council recieved from all over the world that changed their minds...

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#41    The Silver Thong

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:25 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 February 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Yet that is what you are agreeing to when you say yeah, to this issue, because if they intrude in one area be prepared for them to intrude in all areas...

One day, you'll be applying for a permit just so you can have a few friends over to watch a game...



So you are falling for the poor me thing twice.  It was over parking not religion.  I always tell my Jedi Knights to take the bus.

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#42    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:35 PM

From the news article  I looked up on  line...

In Orange County, California, it is illegal to hold a religious meeting in your home.

This is what Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, discovered when they were fined $300 earlier this month for holding a Bible study class on their property.

Officialdom in the county said the couple were singled out because it is considered illegal to hold "a regular gathering of more than three people" on private property. Officials stated that the Fromms require a license to hold meetings in their home.

San Juan Capistrano authorities claim home Bible study is not allowed because it is a "church," and churches require a Conditional Use Permit (CUP) in residential areas.  http://blog.alexande...le-study-69211/

So I agree it should  be singled out  if this is the case...   I see no point in being so biased

If other Christians who attend bible meetings, and go to the bother of renting out property, / buildings .. like the Christian group my mother belongs to... They have to pay for their building rental... They have a car park  and they also have a permit for their Christian bible meetings... So they do it legally and they do not disrupt  anyone.. No complaints can ever be made about  how they do it....... I know many small Christian groups all do the same  in that respect...

So why should  these Christians get treated differently?    They have no permit , they are told to get one..  It is unfair for other Christian groups who attend these same kind of meetings and have to pay for permits and rent out buildings   that do not disrupt  anyone else...Yet  a number of other Christians want to avoid all that ...  Well if they get fined again that is their own problem...  

I remember a family like that years ago.. Rodgers they were by name... They used to have  about 30 odd Christians come pilling into our street  to attend their own private bible meetings every Friday and sometimes on Wednesdays..
  It blocked our street up with cars.. even parking them on the pavements.. No one could get in or out until their meetings were over.. .If you knocked on their door, they hardly would answer.. Most likely knew it was going to be a\ complaint.. So the police  had to get involved..  it was unfair to others.. They were ordered to stop...I cannot say what else happened.. All I can say is.. they never did  it again...  Thank goodness..

It is easy to play the poor wee us we Christians never get a break.. But remember the moment you do, you are only being biased, and you forget that other Christian groups have to do it the legal way...  I say if other Christians are doing it the legal way, then they should too ....I see no point in acting like a victim and being biased..



Edited by Beckys_Mom, 20 February 2012 - 10:36 PM.

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#43    Jor-el

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 20 February 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

So you are falling for the poor me thing twice.  It was over parking not religion.  I always tell my Jedi Knights to take the bus.

Excuse me, for asking this, but where exactly did you determine that it was over parking?

From what I read, all the cars parked within the property in question.

The Fromms say the non-denominational meetings are well-suited to their home, located on a sizable acreage similar to surrounding homes, and they say they have been careful to maintain low noise levels both inside the house and on the patio. They say visitors who attended the meetings never had trouble finding a place to park on the property, which is large enough to accommodate a corral, barn, and pool.

Section 9-3.301 of the San Juan Capistrano code prohibits “religious, fraternal, or nonprofit organizations” in residential neighbourhoods without a Conditional Use Permit. This prohibition applies to “churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations.” San Juan Capistrano has a reactive code enforcement policy, meaning that officers only respond to complaints.

The Fromms object that the meetings neither serve an organized church nor aim to become one, but are simply a gathering of believers of all stripes.


California homeowner fined for hosting Bible study in his house

There we go... it wasn't about parking.

Edited by Jor-el, 20 February 2012 - 10:52 PM.

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#44    The Silver Thong

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:53 PM

Land use issues.

You might not believe this but I'm in favor of this and have no personal issue with it (the meetings).  I think the law is pretty stupid in this regaurd.  The couple that have there friends over should be able to but is it an organized meeting that requires a permit.

Someone had to make a complaint or this would be a non story.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 20 February 2012 - 11:04 PM.

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#45    _Only

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:55 PM

From reading those articles, it is a zoning/city code issue, but that doesn't explain the backstory, namely the how and why the issue came up. If you want to say it was religious discrimination, that's your opinion, but it doesn't sound like the most realistic one.

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