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The Land of the Free? Not so Much!


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#301    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:48 AM

View Postsam12six, on 25 February 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

I consider it neither brave not an opinion. I consider it fact that governments hold life and death power over every citizen. You did not ask if I like oppressive laws. You asked if I really believe they had the power to make and enforce them - that's pretty much the definition of government.



I choose to surrender nothing. I choose to see reality, and the reality is that if you dislike your local laws, your options are: suck it up and deal, protest them, or break them. If I read a story about people who have a handful of friends over to study the bible and are protesting the law says they can't, I'll applaud them. If I read a forum post that people who have essentially built a church attached to their home, have twice a week services consisting of dozens of people, and have been asked to secure the permits their activities require are being persecuted because they're religious, I'll argue if I disagree.
My apologies . Your surrender has been to fatalism and acceptance. Nothing more.

No! Western governments do not have anything like the sort of powers you assume, not even now. Try living in stalinist russia or mao's china or in north korea.

I am still, basically, completely free, There are very very few practical restrictions on me or what I do, or  how i act .I am restricted mostly by my own ethics and moralities, far more than any form of govt control.

I dont have to go to war if it is against my beliefs. I dont even have to go to school in a formal sense, if i am a child. I can chose where i live, what i do, read eat or view, and with whom I associate (or not) In practical terms there are very few govt compulsions on me, and most can be side stepped by personal choices Eg i can avoid paying taxes by a variety of legal strategems if i chose to. I can avoid almost every govt control by living in a quiet country town without restrictive ordinances  Heck I went without even filing a tax return for 14 years, despite working for the govt, and when i did the govt paid me 5000 dollars for doing so. :innocent:

I can drive anywhere in australia, stop anywhere i like, and never have to show any form of identity. I have been asked for proof of  identity by the police 3 times in 40 years. EAch time after getting a speeding ticket, which i deserved in each case because i was inattentive ( I have no objection to laws which rightly punish physically dangerous  behaviour In fact i think there should be more of them)

No one else has ever asked me to prove my identity, other than when engaging in private financial transactions such as banking or getting a loan.
Come and live in Australia. :rofl:
Ps I am too old to  worry much about the future direction of my society, but i continue to fight the gradual erosion of the liberties I grew up with, and which my ancestors enjoyed for several generations. i chose a gandian form of civil disobedience or ev more sublte resistance Since we had to give a name when buying a mobile phone (In  about 2005) i gace up buying them for myself and give a false name when I bought one for my wife.
Since they  introduced  security checks such as body scans at major  airports, I stopped flying (better for the environment also, anyway) Until now most local and regional airports dont have such checks but it is coming. My opinon is that this is a form of surender to terrorism, and we would be beter off accpeting some casualities and retaining a free ability to travel.
Such restrictions do not really impact on me. I dont fly using aircraft and If i need to travel physically I prefer to drive. I tis quite normal for an austrlana to drive 500 miles or so in a day. Heck of a lot cheaper  alos. I can take four of us comfortably to our capital city  about 650 kilometers away in a little over 6 hours, for a total cost of about 60 dollars, without anyone knowing where we are going. To fly those people there  would cost  almost a thousand dollars,  involve a lot of invasive checks, and  still take a couple of hours getting from one destination to the other.  A round trip for us all, is 120 dollars  plus a meal or two, compared to nearly 2000 dollars. Economics is  often the greatest influence on freedom in a western democracy. With money you are free, without it you lose many freedoms of choice.

Edited by Mr Walker, 25 February 2012 - 02:06 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#302    sam12six

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:05 AM

View PostCassea, on 25 February 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Funny how there doesn't seem to be any political correctness when it comes to religion.  Lately you can trash and vilify religion in ways that you could never do to other ethnic groups. It's interesting how that shift seems to happen.  I remember it being the otherway when I was a child.  But generalizations and insults directed at "delusional" Christians. Seems to be happening more and more. Sigh. :blush:

You're right. I believe it's exactly like race in the US. For a long time, white men held all the power in the country and now it's OK to make fun of them but not for them to make fun of other races (or women). How many black comedians have you heard start a joke with something like, "Black people beat they kids, don't they?"? If a white, male comedian tried that, he get lynched by the press even if he managed to escape being lynched by the audience.

Similarly, religion (Christianity in the US) has held a commanding seat of power in most of the world for several hundred years. As more power is gained by non-Christians, there's a similar taboo where it's OK to make fun of Christians, but they're bullies if they make fun of anyone else.

Mr Walker,

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm happy you live in a state of what you consider freedom. I also do pretty much what I want without running afoul of regulation. That doesn't change the fact that all "rights" we have are rights the government can take away. I'm not saying that's good or inevitable. I'm saying that's the definition of government - to force people to act within certain guidelines. Those guidelines can become draconian (and I believe they are) but even a complete replacement of the government will simply replace them with other guidelines. I don't see how you interpret my recognizing this as a surrender to anything.


#303    Cassea

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:10 AM

The solution to inequity or oppression is not to turn around. And start oppressing the descendants of those who had power.  That kind of power shift creates situations like Rwanda.  The solution to oppression is to learn and to move forward.  Not to try to get evens.  Not try to make innocent people pay. For the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.

Edited by Cassea, 25 February 2012 - 02:11 AM.

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#304    _Only

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:11 AM

View PostCassea, on 25 February 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Funny how there doesn't seem to be any political correctness when it comes to religion.  Lately you can trash and vilify religion in ways that you could never do to other ethnic groups. It's interesting how that shift seems to happen.  I remember it being the otherway when I was a child.  But generalizations and insults directed at "delusional" Christians. Seems to be happening more and more. Sigh. :blush:

Society is evolving.

Years and years and years of "anything we do is right and justified, in the name of our religion" has dropped like a bomb all throughout history. This can only happen so many times before society takes notice and changes their stance.

Edited by Jerry Only, 25 February 2012 - 02:13 AM.

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#305    aquatus1

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:19 AM

View PostJor-el, on 24 February 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

You stated:

Now answer my questrion...

If my family consists of 4 to 6 people, then am I suddenly a church when I pray with them?

Like I said, do not waste my time asking me to repeat things that I have already explained in length simply because you are more concerned with winning an argument than discussing it.  

Do not respond to my posts without first reading them.  Not just the one sentence that you obsessively fixate on.  Everything.


#306    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 04:25 AM

View PostJerry Only, on 25 February 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

Society is evolving.

Years and years and years of "anything we do is right and justified, in the name of our religion" has dropped like a bomb all throughout history. This can only happen so many times before society takes notice and changes their stance.

Irreversible damage has been done.

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#307    _Only

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 05:22 AM

View PostCassea, on 25 February 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

The solution to inequity or oppression is not to turn around. And start oppressing the descendants of those who had power.  That kind of power shift creates situations like Rwanda.  The solution to oppression is to learn and to move forward.  Not to try to get evens.  Not try to make innocent people pay. For the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.

Questioning a persons faith/belief system is far from oppression. We are lucky that we live in a society today that is allowed to do this. No one is attempting to "get even" by pointing out some logical/rational deficiencies of some peoples belief. In the end it's just people arguing over their stances; not oppression.

If by oppression, you were instead referring to the OPs claim that there is a conspiracy being ran by the U.S. government, and local city/state governments, to stop practicing religious people from gathering, well, erm...

Posted Image

But try not to use it as a factual argument, as it is a conspiracy theory.

Edited by Jerry Only, 25 February 2012 - 05:27 AM.

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#308    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:22 AM

View Postsam12six, on 25 February 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

Mr Walker,

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm happy you live in a state of what you consider freedom. I also do pretty much what I want without running afoul of regulation. That doesn't change the fact that all "rights" we have are rights the government can take away. I'm not saying that's good or inevitable. I'm saying that's the definition of government - to force people to act within certain guidelines. Those guidelines can become draconian (and I believe they are) but even a complete replacement of the government will simply replace them with other guidelines. I don't see how you interpret my recognizing this as a surrender to anything.
I dont see governace as you do. But then i studied it for 3 years at university, doing poitics, and I am a bit more sympathetic to it. Governments cant really take away from people any rights we do not surrender to them. Governments are only representatives of people.  We can change them  via a vote in a democracy or a revolution in a non democracy. It is not govts who have any power ove rus it is how much we are prepared to surrender to a govt. In democracies it is more about the power and pressure of a society, than a govt. The mores/ways of a people are very powerful.  They can pressure, but they cannot compel, a person in a free society. It seems to me thatm in believing govt is powerful, you surrender power and authoority to it and make it so. If you do not believe it is powerful, you weaken its powers/authority, and make it less so.

Enmasse the more power we give a govt, the more powerful it becomes. The less power we give it, the less powerful it becomes. No one should ever really surrender personal power/authority to a govt, or allow it to increase its power/authority as a state, over its own people We tend to do this when we are frightened and insecure, but it a dangerous trade off to surrender our rights for the protection of a state. Sometimes it is necessarly but really very rarely.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#309    Rlyeh

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:49 AM

View PostCassea, on 25 February 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Funny how there doesn't seem to be any political correctness when it comes to religion.  Lately you can trash and vilify religion in ways that you could never do to other ethnic groups. It's interesting how that shift seems to happen.  I remember it being the otherway when I was a child.  But generalizations and insults directed at "delusional" Christians. Seems to be happening more and more. Sigh. :blush:
Yeah especially when it comes to radical christians, pro-choicers are baby murderers, homosexuals should be jailed or worse, non-believers are devil worshippers.

Oh wait..


#310    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 11:34 AM

View PostJerry Only, on 25 February 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

Questioning a persons faith/belief system is far from oppression. We are lucky that we live in a society today that is allowed to do this. No one is attempting to "get even" by pointing out some logical/rational deficiencies of some peoples belief. In the end it's just people arguing over their stances; not oppression.

If by oppression, you were instead referring to the OPs claim that there is a conspiracy being ran by the U.S. government, and local city/state governments, to stop practicing religious people from gathering, well, erm...

Posted Image

But try not to use it as a factual argument, as it is a conspiracy theory.

Well written and thought out post  .   You are 100% correct, questioning a persons belief system is far from oppression, in fact so many Christians like to question others beliefs too, we all do it to find out more and get other points of view...
You are also correct and you make sense when you say that the OP  is not some conspiracy by the government...  To say that it is,  would not add up,,  


   If the government wanted to put together a plan to rid those with religious beliefs and prevent them from having religious freedoms, then  targets a family  over a couple of fines  and then giving in to them is hardly a  top form goverment conspiracy...If it were they are not exactly putting much effort into it  are they?    

  
Discrimination, a term that is regularly used as and when it suits others.. more so with the religious from all over the world  ( not all but so many of them) ... that like to use the poor we us, we are discriminated over our religious beliefs.. They all would be great on that TV show  CSI... because each one of them are so good at playing the victim..


It happens over here in N.Ireland a lot ...You will hear  them say - You are singling me out because I am Catholic.. You are singling me out because I am protestant..  This is non stop... Each time  it is because they were caught doing wrong...  If they are breaking any law, it wont matter, the discrimination cards get played..  But in a court room, it never washes
The idiots that were supporting the guy,were too daft to see that.. and they too chanted - This is discrimination...  I mean how ignorant can so many people get?    It never ends ...But the religious discrimination cards are always in play..


Edited by Beckys_Mom, 25 February 2012 - 12:14 PM.

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#311    preacherman76

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:46 PM

I think his comment had less to do with having being questioned about faith, and more to do with comments made in this thread telling christians they deserve to be discriminated against cause of things that happened long before any of us were born.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#312    preacherman76

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:51 PM

View Postsam12six, on 25 February 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:


Yes, a state should be able to regulate all social gatherings in an individual's house.
:blink:  :huh:  :hmm:  :mellow:

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#313    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:03 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 25 February 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

I think his comment had less to do with having being questioned about faith, and more to do with comments made in this thread telling christians they deserve to be discriminated against cause of things that happened long before any of us were born.

Well  that's a new one.. Where do you get that from his post?  I have seen people say they were discriminated against.. and others say no they do not think so.. But I cannot see what you have now just added...?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 25 February 2012 - 01:06 PM.

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#314    preacherman76

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:07 PM

View PostMobhitmusicman, on 23 February 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

No One Is trampling on Freedoms, More to the Story then meets the eye. Jeez no one can do anything slightly "off" in this country without it being an Attack on Christianity. Get over yourselves!!! You have it made!! No one stands up for Pagans when someone discriminates them. Christians wanna stop the building of the Mosque near ground zero, Christians want to ban Gay Marriage, Christians want to stop the rights of women to have abortions. But one little move against 40 Christians  and It's a war on Christianity. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES, PAGANS and JEWS were here long before Christianity, and No one NO ONE stands up for our RIGHTS!!

I Don't mean to offend, but I am seriously tired of people and these crusades saying they have every right in the world, screw everyone else because we Believe in this and they believe in something different so they are wrong. Yeesh!! this is why I don't come into this section of the boards!


Here is one a example BM.

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#315    Jor-el

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:59 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 25 February 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Like I said, do not waste my time asking me to repeat things that I have already explained in length simply because you are more concerned with winning an argument than discussing it.  

Do not respond to my posts without first reading them.  Not just the one sentence that you obsessively fixate on.  Everything.

Bollywocks Aquatus,

The rest of your post was justifying that one line, it all centered on the logic of that line, do not assume I do not read what you post because I chose a different path to question the logic of your argument.

Edited by Jor-el, 25 February 2012 - 02:24 PM.

Posted Image


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