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The Land of the Free? Not so Much!


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#316    eight bits

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:01 PM

preacherman

Quote

They just wanted to get paid. They didnt want to be recognized. They wanted to bully these people into paying them, or they wer going to shut them down.
This keeps coming up. An executive agency "fine" is ordinarily a negotiating tool. For any money to be collected requires either voluntary settlement or a court approval, which means a court finding in favor of the agency's position in an adversarial proceeding.

None of that happened here. The zoning administration is an executive agency, not a court.

A sure sign that the fine was "imposed" in order to be waived is that it would cost the municipality more than a few hundred dollars to collect a few hundred dollars.

Quote

Got what they sought?? They didnt get anything.
They sought and got the property owner to hire a lawyer to enter into negotiations to ensure that their church was lawfully operated. Persuading them to do that is the adminstrator's job.

Anybody can send anybody else a letter saying "You need to talk with me." If you add to your letter "You owe me $300," then there's some chance that the person will talk with you. Better yet, maybe they'll get a lawyer, and you'll save some time because you can talk with the lawyer instead of with the scofflaw, a real plus if what you want to talk about is complying with the laws.

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Things are exactly the same as if they never said a word. After the nation wide backlash, I highly doubt they will be bothering these people again.
Except for the former scofflaws now negotiating to comply with a law they used to be flaunting. Did I mention what the administrator's job is?

And, um, what nationwide backlash? Except for the God Squad, Americans here are generally accepting or supportive of the zoning adminsitrators.

Off the netz? Nobody's even heard of this. It's a local zoning beef, for Christ's sake. (Wanna bet whether 1 out of 10 Californians could place San Juan Capistrano on a map? How about New Yorkers? Texans? Nobody cares, dude.)

But I fully agree with you that if these people finally do comply with the law, then they will have no further bother from those whose job it is to administer and enforce the law.

And so we see yet again, the subtitle of this thread is a lie. Home Bibles studies are legal in the United States.

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#317    Jor-el

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 25 February 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

Well written and thought out post  .   You are 100% correct, questioning a persons belief system is far from oppression, in fact so many Christians like to question others beliefs too, we all do it to find out more and get other points of view...
You are also correct and you make sense when you say that the OP  is not some conspiracy by the government...  To say that it is,  would not add up,,  


   If the government wanted to put together a plan to rid those with religious beliefs and prevent them from having religious freedoms, then  targets a family  over a couple of fines  and then giving in to them is hardly a  top form goverment conspiracy...If it were they are not exactly putting much effort into it  are they?    

  
Discrimination, a term that is regularly used as and when it suits others.. more so with the religious from all over the world  ( not all but so many of them) ... that like to use the poor we us, we are discriminated over our religious beliefs.. They all would be great on that TV show  CSI... because each one of them are so good at playing the victim..


It happens over here in N.Ireland a lot ...You will hear  them say - You are singling me out because I am Catholic.. You are singling me out because I am protestant..  This is non stop... Each time  it is because they were caught doing wrong...  If they are breaking any law, it wont matter, the discrimination cards get played..  But in a court room, it never washes
The idiots that were supporting the guy,were too daft to see that.. and they too chanted - This is discrimination...  I mean how ignorant can so many people get?    It never ends ...But the religious discrimination cards are always in play..


Wait, are you saying that discrimination must be institutionalized for it to exist in government?

Because if you are, then it will already be too late to do anyhthing about it. To use the term, "conspiracy theory" does not mean that it has to be institutinalized, to exist, it is the active abuse of logical laws being applied where they are not to be applied. Only if you allow that to pass will it eventually become institutionalized. By combating these tendencies at their root, you are preventing them from reaching further and further as time goes on.

I remember a few years ago by way of an example, the crazy fashion that also started at the local level, of banning smokers from smoking indoors in public institutions. Perfectly logical and justifiable. Then it got banned in other areas. Then it was taken to a state level, now it is close to becoming a federal law, but the twist is that as each new step is taken, they also become more extreme. Banning people from smoking in their own homes, smoke free condominiums that can expel you from your own home if you smoke there. Smoking in the street is now the next battle and when you look, smoking will be as illegal as any drug, like Marijuana.

And all because, wow, it is a "justifiable", public health issue.

Then it became a world fashion adopted by other governments, now in Portugal, you can't smoke anywhere except in the street, and even then it must be at least 100m from a restaurant or cafe. If you give a little, alot will be taken when you are not looking.

Maybe religious people will become the next public health issue, after all they are already accusing us of being delusional and that there is something wrong with our brains.

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#318    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:31 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 25 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Here is one a example BM.

I read that, and all I can see is him saying  that he is sick of reading and hearing the same thing about discrimination and points out  that no one cares if it is about other groups..He is in a way  technically correct.. On here I have yet to see so many  including Christians get all upset and annoyed of they felt a muslim  or a pagan get trampled on  or discriminated against...    It is his way of saying - I am sick of hearing the same old chant about discrimination over and over..  To be honest, it is worn out...  I have even seen  a couple of Christians say the same when reading a story  about  a muslim  being in trouble and playing the victim card...  So it goes to show you, people in general will get tired of hearing it...  The only ones that make the claims are those who do not care to view it any other way... It is easy to be biased to suit one's self ... But looking at it on both ends, takes more thinking and a broader mind  in my view




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#319    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostJor-el, on 25 February 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Wait, are you saying that discrimination must be institutionalized for it to exist in government?

Because if you are, then it will already be too late to do anyhthing about it. To use the term, "conspiracy theory" does not mean that it has to be institutinalized, to exist, it is the active abuse of logical laws being applied where they are not to be applied. Only if you allow that to pass will it eventually become institutionalized. By combating these tendencies at their root, you are preventing them from reaching further and further as time goes on.



Yiou know something...see below

View Postaquatus1, on 25 February 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Like I said, do not waste my time asking me to repeat things that I have already explained in length simply because you are more concerned with winning an argument than discussing it.  

Do not respond to my posts without first reading them.  Not just the one sentence that you obsessively fixate on.  Everything.

I agree with what aquatus1  has said.. You are only focused on keeping an argument  going and not concerned in disguising anything...  The above  quote to me shows this. .all I can see is you nit picking over a simple opinion... You need to get over it .. The issue is long resolved  is resolved    dragging on for arguments sake is pointless.and tedious .  Heck the Fromm's  didn't go this far  lol .....This thread should be put to rest...  .    People have served  time in prison and can get out faster than  you will with ending a thread argument.. No joke !! It is not worth discussing further to be honest ..All it is now is a nit pick over points people make that does not suit you..  High time this all was put to rest.. as the issue is already resolved..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 25 February 2012 - 02:44 PM.

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#320    aquatus1

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:45 PM

View PostJor-el, on 25 February 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Bollywocks Aquatus,

The rest of your post was justifying that one line, it all centered on the logic of that line, do not assume I do not read what you post because I chose a different path to question the logic of your argument.

Your question was specifically and directly answered.  I had an entire exchange about it with Mr. Walker.  Either you did not read it, or you did and are choosing to ignore it.  I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you did not read it.  Go back, read what I said regarding families, and stop obsessing over one line while ignoring the rest of the entire argument, as you have been doing from the very beginning, in the exact same knee-jerk fashion that others did in order to make this utterly banal case of proper permits into a ridiculous accusation of constitutional infringement.

So, as before, stop wasting my time.  It will take you all of 30 seconds to go back and read the answer, and once you do so, try and take another 30 seconds to consider that maybe a miniscule effort in reading what is actually in front of your eyes, instead of just making a knee-jerk assumption that you are automatically right, will actually make you look a little more reasonable to all the people who did actually read the posts and see the very clear answer to the exact same question when it was asked before.


#321    _Only

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 06:59 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 25 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Here is one a example BM.

That didn't say anything about anyone deserving to be discriminated against for anything that happened in the past.

It was a complaint about how radical Christians have been known to make some ridiculous discrimination against others, then cry discrimination against them, when it isn't even the case.

"I think there may be "ghost phenomenon" that may be still not fully understood or dismissed, but that doesn't make it spirits of the dead, anymore than "UFO" means "spaceship" or even "UFO" or "spaceship" is directly related to aliens, or anything else. There is way too much assumption and a baseless reliance on anecdotal lore, like when people assert this or that about the spirit world or the astral plane or Ouija board demons, or religion. I say 'says WHO?'" - Paranormalcy

#322    Jor-el

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 01:59 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 25 February 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Your question was specifically and directly answered.  I had an entire exchange about it with Mr. Walker.  Either you did not read it, or you did and are choosing to ignore it.  I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you did not read it.  Go back, read what I said regarding families, and stop obsessing over one line while ignoring the rest of the entire argument, as you have been doing from the very beginning, in the exact same knee-jerk fashion that others did in order to make this utterly banal case of proper permits into a ridiculous accusation of constitutional infringement.

So, as before, stop wasting my time.  It will take you all of 30 seconds to go back and read the answer, and once you do so, try and take another 30 seconds to consider that maybe a miniscule effort in reading what is actually in front of your eyes, instead of just making a knee-jerk assumption that you are automatically right, will actually make you look a little more reasonable to all the people who did actually read the posts and see the very clear answer to the exact same question when it was asked before.

Well, Aquatus, I did as you suggested and went back to check on what you wrote, and yes you had mentioned the situation of a family before to Mr. Walker...

The following is an extract of your post to him:

Like I mentioned before, it is a bit more complicated than that. As much time as we are spending on the definition of "church" in this county, keep in mind that...all it is is the definition of "church" in this county. It is just one tiny part of the entire business law system.

Heck, you wouldn't even need a business lawyer. You could just go to the judge and show that everyone there is a member of your family, and you do have a family tradition of getting together and praying every day. Chances are pretty good the judge will believe you. They will probably also note that you went above and beyond in your efforts to avoid inconveniencing your neighbors by building a tiny parking lot on your property.

Would you still be classified as a church? Yes. Would the law apply to you? No. You convinced the judge you aren't running it as a business. It's just a family thing.

People have a habit of thinking of the law as some immovable line carved in stone. It isn't. It's more like a string laid on the ground. There is plenty of wiggle room on either side, as long as you are willing to be reasonable about it.


My question is withdrawn, but another comes up, since when do I need to defend my right to practice my faith in my own home?

You lay it out very reasonably, thinking that the judge would be a reasonable person who would give an exception to a law in effect, but that means that your faith in the system could be blindsided, if the judge decides to maintain the law, no exceptions, even if it goes against the constitution of the US.

The simple fact is that it should never even get to a judge, plain and simple, it should never have become an issue, the law should never have gotten involved.

As it was demonstrated, this was not a church. That they needed to defend themselves to get the city to finally see it their way, should never have happened.

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#323    aquatus1

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:39 AM

View PostJor-el, on 26 February 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

My question is withdrawn, but another comes up, since when do I need to defend my right to practice my faith in my own home?

You never have, and likely never will, need to.

Quote

You lay it out very reasonably, thinking that the judge would be a reasonable person who would give an exception to a law in effect, but that means that your faith in the system could be blindsided, if the judge decides to maintain the law, no exceptions, even if it goes against the constitution of the US.

*sigh*

Go back and read.

Quote

The simple fact is that it should never even get to a judge, plain and simple, it should never have become an issue, the law should never have gotten involved.

I agree.  Getting a permit is a fairly easy, straightforward, process, which involves about an hour of going to the City Permit building and filling out a few forms.  Even if for some inexplicable reason building thousands of dollars worth of additions to the house and a parking lot didn't twig anyone on to wondering if maybe this was a bit over the top for a home bible study, the warning from the city made it very clear, and later on the fine for refusing to heed the warning should have emphasized it.  

This did not come out of left field.  This was a slow build-up, with plenty of warnings, and a single, ridiculously simple, outcome.  You are quite correct that this was never, and should never, have been an issue.

What made it an issue was people willing to believe before they knew.  People who did not bother to listen to what other people say, but instead chose to believe they know what other people would say.

Quote

As it was demonstrated, this was not a church. That they needed to defend themselves to get the city to finally see it their way, should never have happened.

Actually, it was demonstrated that it was a church.  Should the county choose to change their definition of a church, that is up to them.  I personally do not think that is going to be likely, since that definition does a pretty good job defending all the churches that do actually follow the rules in their practice.

Edited by aquatus1, 27 February 2012 - 08:52 AM.


#324    Cassea

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:06 PM

I am curious why people want so badly to ignore the truth.  If this was a meeting of people who got together to read Richard Dawkins books every week.  You can bet that people would suddenly see the harassment.  Then it would be clear.  But since most people hate Christians, then we're just whining.

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#325    _Only

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:09 PM

View PostCassea, on 27 February 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I am curious why people want so badly to ignore the truth.  If this was a meeting of people who got together to read Richard Dawkins books every week.  You can bet that people would suddenly see the harassment.  Then it would be clear.  But since most people hate Christians, then we're just whining.

Ignorant and unfair assessment of the discussion here.

What you believe is "the truth" is a completely subjective opinion. That all here who don't agree with you about this, "hate Christians".

Tsk, tsk.

City/state governments worship the almighty dollar. They were simply practicing their religion in attempting to ticket this meeting of people. This is what I think. I'm not going to get high and mighty and say it's "the truth" and you all are blind for not seeing it, but it is far more likely than a paranoid theory that this city hated religious people, or in your quoted post, Christians. Doesn't add up.

Edited by Jerry Only, 27 February 2012 - 06:12 PM.

"I think there may be "ghost phenomenon" that may be still not fully understood or dismissed, but that doesn't make it spirits of the dead, anymore than "UFO" means "spaceship" or even "UFO" or "spaceship" is directly related to aliens, or anything else. There is way too much assumption and a baseless reliance on anecdotal lore, like when people assert this or that about the spirit world or the astral plane or Ouija board demons, or religion. I say 'says WHO?'" - Paranormalcy

#326    HerNibs

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostCassea, on 27 February 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I am curious why people want so badly to ignore the truth.  If this was a meeting of people who got together to read Richard Dawkins books every week.  You can bet that people would suddenly see the harassment.  Then it would be clear.  But since most people hate Christians, then we're just whining.


I really don't think the town of San Juan Capistrano is anti-Christian --

Quote

Religion statistics for San Juan Capistrano:
Percentage of population affiliated with a religious congregations: 44.78%

Adherents
Catholic Church (61%)Mainline Protestant Denominations (9%)Evangelical Denominations (18%)Other (12%)


Read more: http://www.city-data...l#ixzz1nbuHJ88U

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#327    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:09 PM

View PostJerry Only, on 27 February 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Ignorant and unfair assessment of the discussion here.

What you believe is "the truth" is a completely subjective opinion. That all here who don't agree with you about this, "hate Christians".

Wow you are correct, that is an ignorant assessment  towards all of us that have a disagreement...  Not a nice thing to say..  Just because someone may disagree with a Christian, it sure doesn't mean  they hate  the Christian..    I never could understand that sort of assumption   It does not make any sense ...We all have loved ones, family and friends who are Christian.. we do not hate them..  


People regardless who they are  will have some sort of disagreement...hate doesn't have to fall into it ..

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#328    Jor-el

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:59 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 27 February 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

You never have, and likely never will, need to.

We can only Hope. I sincerely hope for all our sakes that you are correct.

Quote

I agree.  Getting a permit is a fairly easy, straightforward, process, which involves about an hour of going to the City Permit building and filling out a few forms.  Even if for some inexplicable reason building thousands of dollars worth of additions to the house and a parking lot didn't twig anyone on to wondering if maybe this was a bit over the top for a home bible study, the warning from the city made it very clear, and later on the fine for refusing to heed the warning should have emphasized it.  

This did not come out of left field.  This was a slow build-up, with plenty of warnings, and a single, ridiculously simple, outcome.  You are quite correct that this was never, and should never, have been an issue.

What made it an issue was people willing to believe before they knew.  People who did not bother to listen to what other people say, but instead chose to believe they know what other people would say.

That sort of contradicts everything that has been established.

Let's take it by points...

1. You say that getting a permit is a fairly easy, straightforward, process, which involves about an hour of going to the City Permit building and filling out a few forms.

Rather it it takes 4 to 8 months depending on the complexity of the case, and it will cost a few thousand dollars. See Here for details

2. You say that even if for some inexplicable reason building thousands of dollars worth of additions to the house and a parking lot didn't twig anyone on to wondering if maybe this was a bit over the top for a home bible study, the warning from the city made it very clear, and later on the fine for refusing to heed the warning should have emphasized it.

What you seem to have missed is that they did not alter their land one bit, they added no additions to their house, they did not build a parking lot. This can be proved from sattelite imagery available earlier on in this thread. Did that simply pass you by?

The land used as a parking lot was beaten dirt in an area normally used to ride horses, you can actually see that from that sattelite image. The supposed addition to their home is their backyard patio. And I am surprised you didn'y see this because it was mentioned at least 3 times.

Posted Image


3. The Special use permit applies to 3 distinct types of entity:

1 Religious organizations, like churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship.
2. Non-Profit Organizations that are non-religious.
3. Fraternal Orgainizations that are non-religious.

Examples of such fraternal and non-profit organizations in the general area are:

Big Brothers of Orange County
YMCA of Orange County
San Juan Capistrano Historical Society
CARE FOUNDATION - Humane Treatment for Animals
California Heart Connection
Mission Montessori Academy
International Chili Society
Lake Mission Viejo Association
Laura's House - Against Domestic Violence Association
HBIC - Help for Brain Injured Children


If the law was being objectively applied where are the violations by these organizations, most of them have regular meetings in private homes, thius we know from their very character. They must certainly have over 20 members attending, yet we do not have on record any such violation.

This is clearly referred to by a number of sites:

It seems to me that regulating any regular gathering of “more than three people” has the potential to reach far too deeply into private lives. It could impact anything from a morning coffee klatch to a fantasy football league to a book club. For that matter, most families themselves have more than three people in them — will the city start fining families for meeting each night for dinner? There’s no indication that the city has come down on anything other than this home church. The question is why?

Outside the Beltway

So there is no record of anybody getting treated in the same way as this couple in this city, even when doing exactly the same thing.

4. This might lead people to believe that it was a neighbour who complained to the authorities, but again even that does not seem to be the case. The neighbours themselves wrote to the city council in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings.

See: CBS Los Angeles

Quote

Actually, it was demonstrated that it was a church.  Should the county choose to change their definition of a church, that is up to them.  I personally do not think that is going to be likely, since that definition does a pretty good job defending all the churches that do actually follow the rules in their practice.

Nope I can prove it by the city councils own lawyers admitting to it.

So Aquatus, this is where I leave off, I have said what needed to be said, I have demonstrated it with information that can be researched... I leave it up to our readers to make their choice of whom to believe, either way I won't be posting again on this thread. If I do I'll be repeating myself, and just like you, I too get tired of doing that with those who do not read my posts.

Edited by Jor-el, 27 February 2012 - 08:00 PM.

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#329    Sherapy

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:25 PM

View PostJor-el, on 24 February 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Exactly where in his post did you get all of that?

Or is that simply your logic working?

So was theirs, and they got fined.

My OP was quite clear, I couldn't get any clearer, unless you just happened along and didn't bother even seeing the video or some such thing... Eightbits was the one who informed me and others of the resolution of the situation, I had no information on that issue. That it was resolved is irrelevant, the post was about the fact that it actually happened... as the Title of this thread clearly states.

The Land of the Free? Not so Much! Home Bible Studies illegal in America  

That is was resolved is the  relevant aspect, Jo rel!.

I have an example; Say you have a house hold rule ( Law) that states all members under 18 have to be in by midnight. If the rule is  broken the fine is  a loss of all freedoms for a month.

Say you find out the next day that one of your sons came in at  12:30 the night before.  So you notify  him that he has lost all freedoms for a month.( In essence you cite him with a verbal ticket, a opportunity to plead his case .) He argues his case (gives you an explanation) and it turns out his brother looked at the clock wrong  because the brother didn't have his glasses on.

So what matters Jor el, that the mistake happened at all or that it was resolved?
Do you as the parent have the right to ask questions and make mistakes?

In America we have a system in place to allow for mistakes and to ask questions. Its not perfect but we muddle through. :w00t:



IMO you are beating a dead horse here.


#330    Doug1o29

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostJor-el, on 18 February 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

It was once the land of the free, now, not so much...
How true.  Here in Oklahoma, we have the highest incarceration rate for women IN THE WORLD.  No state or nation imprisons a higher proportion of its women than we do.  Something isn't working in "the reddest of the red states."
Doug

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The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott




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