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The Land of the Free? Not so Much!


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#61    The Silver Thong

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:52 AM

It scares me a little to say that the United States will never become a "Nazi" nation as I truely can't see that but in the back of my mind hmmmmm  Is Canada going to be a toy to a nation that no longer believes in a democracy.

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#62    kaptn k

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 03:07 AM

Germany 1929 - 1933........'Communists' are blamed for 'attacks' that result in the nazi party seizing control of all power, and of all of the German people's lives. In every aspect.


America 2001 - to preseant day.......Replace communist with terrorist and the enactment of 'patriot' laws to 'stop' 'terrorists'. Only, these 'patriot' style 'laws' (so laughable that there are people that believe that these laws are designed to protect us).....anywhoz.......these 'laws' as it turns out........are only enforced on American citizens that have no ties to any 'terrorist' organizations. Nor have these citizens commited any crimes against our government.


Oh, but it has no similarities to Nazi Germany and those that choose to roll over will say this "I have nothing to hide so I don't care what liberties are taken away"


It seems, ignorance will be our downfall, I guess we can pass that info along to younger generations when they ask how America came to be a slaved nation.

We can say "many people chose the path of least resistance and didn't want to save our freedoms because some invisible 'terrorist' made threats and so we gave up our freedoms"  :(

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#63    The Silver Thong

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 04:17 AM

View Postkaptn k, on 21 February 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

Germany 1929 - 1933........'Communists' are blamed for 'attacks' that result in the nazi party seizing control of all power, and of all of the German people's lives. In every aspect.


America 2001 - to preseant day.......Replace communist with terrorist and the enactment of 'patriot' laws to 'stop' 'terrorists'. Only, these 'patriot' style 'laws' (so laughable that there are people that believe that these laws are designed to protect us).....anywhoz.......these 'laws' as it turns out........are only enforced on American citizens that have no ties to any 'terrorist' organizations. Nor have these citizens commited any crimes against our government.


Oh, but it has no similarities to Nazi Germany and those that choose to roll over will say this "I have nothing to hide so I don't care what liberties are taken away"


It seems, ignorance will be our downfall, I guess we can pass that info along to younger generations when they ask how America came to be a slaved nation.

We can say "many people chose the path of least resistance and didn't want to save our freedoms because some invisible 'terrorist' made threats and so we gave up our freedoms"  :(





I would say false flag as that does seem to be the Modus operandi of the US as of recent events. I recal reading something from Thomas Jefferson however being a Canadian I ma be wrong lol. To give up ones liberty for sequrity is a move to a state of oppression. I know I have that wrong but we all know what I mean.  Opps Benjamin Franklin.

The US is a slave nation and the joke that they are a democracy slaps those that understand that the US is corprate controlled and we, the rest of the free word suffer at the hands of the few that dictate policy.  The 2012 US election is nothing but a glorified halftime show.

I make mention of this only because religion comes into play when talking politics in the US. In Canada the mention of religion as part of your campaign would end it.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 21 February 2012 - 04:24 AM.

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#64    Jor-el

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:04 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 21 February 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

I agree but when one tries to impose and implement laws based on faith it becomes a gong show as to who gets there peresonal belief accepted.  Law in it's truest form can not have any god or belief envolved.  Freedom is about what we know and using that to create a society that has some sort of conformity.  If we form a society based on faith then anything is possible and allowing individuals to dictate based on faith  will end in a society that will accept anything including murder rape and genocide.


I think freedom of religion is a good thing. I do not think that freedom of religion gives one a free pass to impose on others. If you think religion is nothing more than a persoanl approach to your god so be it, that my take on it. I do not want a god telling people to tell me anything. Until god itself exposes itself god should just shut up and those speaking for him should do like wise.

If I were a god I would be so offended at all these puppets speaking for me I would use a fly swatter on them.  The most shamefull in my mind as far as god goes is trying to be his mouth piece.

Laws should never be imposed and implemented based on faith, laws have to be completely neutral and serve everybodies needs, whomever they may be or whatever faith they may hold. What this thread is about is that some laws actually serve to restrict ones faith, and those laws are not good for anybody.

The law regulates (or should regulate) objectively without stripping people of the ability to practice their faith. In this regard, even if the law did not intend to do so initially, it ended up as a mechanism that in fact stripped people of this ability.

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#65    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 03:54 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 20 February 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

It is truly amazing how the responses in this thread so accurately reflect the exact identical process which made this a news story in the first place.

I have to agree

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#66    Silverbane81

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 04:39 PM

Honestly even if this is true, and theres not more then meets the eye on this subject, All i gotta say is yes its not right,but Kharmas A !@%$!@!!. Yea i said that. See other religions and faith have taken a back seat in this country for over 6 hundred years long before it even was a country! People have been ridiculed,Judged,Condemed,Killed all over having a diferent faith. well now look what happens. You poor Christians start to get some small amount of the same thing. One thing happens to you and all the sudden its land of the free? not so much rofl! Look,I dont care what you choose to base your faith in as long as it harms none. But Dont go crying about your religion being attacked when you b******* have been doing it to countless others for hundreds of years!

Edited by Silverbane81, 21 February 2012 - 04:42 PM.

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#67    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 04:41 PM

In general. like I mentioned before ......My mothers church buddies who hold bible meetings, all have clubbed together and paid for a building rental.. They have  their permit and  a car park outside... They do it all legally and disrupt no one...  Which means  no one can compliant..  Well no one cares to either

So  many Christians like the group my mother belongs to,  all do it the legal way...I feel if the Christians who do in fact pay for permits and follow the law  not causing any trouble or enough to raise complaints... Then why on earth should  the Christians in the OP be any different?

You may as well cry out -   It is ok for other Christians who like to attend their own bible meeting and do it all  above board and cause no complaints... But that  doesn't matter because  this other Chrisitan group  shouldn't have to... Tough on the rest of the Christians that do it legally and more considerate to others....

If you hold regular meetings in your home each week with up to 30 - 50 odd people attending and you have no permit and  cars parked all over blocking other traffic  and you are not insured etc.. then it does not matter what your meetings are about.. The next meting you face will be likely to be set in a court room .

.And chanting  this is unfair I am singled out because I am this or that, will not wash either.. For I am sure every person that breaks the law  will cry  I am being singled out because I am white, black, Muslim, Christian, Jewish  and so on..  Don't matter who or what you are, the law is the law

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 21 February 2012 - 04:44 PM.

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#68    Michelle

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 21 February 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:


If you hold regular meetings in your home each week with up to 30 - 50 odd people attending and you have no permit and  cars parked all over blocking other traffic

"They say visitors who attended the meetings never had trouble finding a place to park on the property, which is large enough to accommodate a corral, barn, and pool."


The parking portion can be put to rest....they were parking on private property, not on the streets.


#69    White Crane Feather

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:05 PM

Permits, fees, fines, regulations for every tiny thing. It's not always as clears as the locals voting it in. Many times local authorities slip things in unnoticed to generate revenue. I know police officers. They are sometimes told to give more tickets to keep their jobs. It's not about religion, or business, nor protecting people from a little trafic problem once a week. It's about control, revenue, and using every opportunity to increase the power of governments.  Governments especially in California have become parasitic

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#70    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:09 PM

View PostMichelle, on 21 February 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:


"They say visitors who attended the meetings never had trouble finding a place to park on the property, which is large enough to accommodate a corral, barn, and pool."


The parking portion can be put to rest....they were parking on private property, not on the streets.

You are talking about  40 + people all arriving in their cars...... For them to park and not disrupt anyone else living around them...  That house would need to be on large grounds  with a lot of room, like almost   the size of a football field to manoeuvre
in and out..
I am sure entering  and all leaving together once it was over, was still driving but and holding everyone else up waiting to drive by....  Unless they all had hover cars  lol ....     But if you are happy to put that one part of it to rest, then  the rest still remains...  If other Christians  have to do it all legally, so should they

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#71    Michelle

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 21 February 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

You are talking about  40 + people all arriving in their cars...... For them to park and not disrupt anyone else living around them...  That house would need to be on large grounds  with a lot of room, like almost   the size of a football field to manoeuvre
in and out..
I am sure entering  and all leaving together once it was over, was still driving but and holding everyone else up waiting to drive by....  Unless they all had hover cars  lol ....     But if you are happy to put that one part of it to rest, then  the rest still remains...  If other Christians  have to do it all legally, so should they

.

Not to be nick-picky, but you can easily park over 100 cars in an acre. We have friends that have a party every year with a couple of hundred people and they only designate one acre out of 40 for parking and another acre for campers. There is three acres surrounding the house. The rest is horse pasture and they don't want people opening the gates and risk the horses getting loose.

"They say visitors who attended the meetings never had trouble finding a place to park on the property, which is large enough to accommodate a corral, barn, and pool."

If they have a barn and a corral it can be reasoned they have horses and enough pasture land for them.

Edited by Michelle, 21 February 2012 - 05:46 PM.


#72    Cassea

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:33 PM

View Postand then, on 18 February 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

Nah...Christians aren't being singled out or treated unfairly.  How could anyone think that? :wacko:


This made me smile.  It is so true.  

View PostlibstaK, on 18 February 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

My guess is neighbours who feel inconvenienced by the cars blocking the street on the bible study night - 30 people if, as in my meditation group 2/3 travel there alone, is up to 20 cars blocking the street.

Some people will not be tolerant of this in front of their homes if it is a regular occurrence and complain persistently to authorities-this could have the authorities looking for the means to curb the traffic issues and bingo you have this sad state of affairs.

How is getting the permit going to solve this problem? If they get the permit they will still have the cars there.   Personally I think that people in general shouldn't have lots of loud parties at their home for whatever reason.  However the football season just passed and there were many "tailgate" type parties throughout the country.  I'm sure parking was an issue for them as well.


View Postaquatus1, on 19 February 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

I find it interesting that every article on this I find sourced to a religious website focuses on people being prosecuted for studying the bible, where every article I find sourced to a general news source focuses more on how the regular meetings of up to 50 people in what was once a residential neighborhood.

In other words, it is not against the law for anyone to hold a regular gathering of more than 3 people for religious reasons.  That is simply the legal definition of a church.  They are not being fined for doing that.

What they are being fined for is for holding regular Thursday gatherings of up 30 people, and regular Sunday gatherings of up to 50 people.  In a house that had an addition built on it to include a large gathering area with a raised stage, pulpit, and rows of seats.  In a residential area.

I can see why the city would reasonably conclude that this a church, and should therefore be subject to the same rules that all churches are subject to.

I cannot see how one can reasonably claim that home bible studies are illegal in California, or that this group was unfairly singled out.

How is it a church?  If you have a bunch of people show up to your house every weekend for a barbeque, is your home now a restaurant and should have to get a liquor licence?   This doesn't make sense to me. :no:


View PostJor-el, on 21 February 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Laws should never be imposed and implemented based on faith, laws have to be completely neutral and serve everybodies needs, whomever they may be or whatever faith they may hold. What this thread is about is that some laws actually serve to restrict ones faith, and those laws are not good for anybody.

The law regulates (or should regulate) objectively without stripping people of the ability to practice their faith. In this regard, even if the law did not intend to do so initially, it ended up as a mechanism that in fact stripped people of this ability.

I agree with this.  It is obvious why they were targeted.

View PostSilverbane81, on 21 February 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Dont go crying about your religion being attacked when you b******* have been doing it to countless others for hundreds of years!

Who have I hurt?  Or anyone I know?  Why am I a b******?   Why are my Christian friends b******* when we try to help others and be kind and compassion?   So you say that we should expect to be treated badly because of history?   Is there anyone in history who hasn't treated others, at least one others, badly?   Should we say this for everyone?  Don't complain because your historical associations treated  others badly?   This is a strange response that I don't understand.

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#73    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostMichelle, on 21 February 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Not to be nick-picky, but you can easily park over 100 cars in an acre. We have friends that have a party every year with a couple of hundred people and they only designate one acre out of 40 for parking and another acre for campers. There is three acres surrounding the house. The rest is horse pasture and they don't want people opening the gates and risk the horses getting loose.

If they have a barn it can be reasoned they have large animals of some sort with enough property for them to roam.
Anyhoo  be as it may.lol......My point of it all is.. . If my mothers Christian group and other Christians have to have a permit and do have, and they do it legally, then so should others. in fact they move around after so long to bigger buildings... they like to raise money to keep their premises going.. fair play to them,  They are still doing it right, hence why no one ever complains
I say it is unfair to the Christians  that do it within the law...  I do not think   this is  because they are a Christian group, I think it is because of the meetings held in large groups in a home with no permit  and so on...

I think that law  applies to anyone  not just the religious..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 21 February 2012 - 05:50 PM.

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#74    zenfahr

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:05 PM

sorry I did not read all the comments.... but Im guessing just by the photographs, that they are holding church services there weekly with between thrity to fifty people in attendance....

If I was thier neighbor I would have called in a report.  Not that im against religious services, but I would not want all those cars and people in my hood every weekend.  I can see that happening if it was a bbq or a party, or even the occasional bible study.  No I dont think they are being singled out because of religious concerns, but rather zoning concerns.

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#75    zenfahr

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:13 PM

View PostCassea, on 21 February 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

This made me smile.  It is so true.  




How is it a church?  If you have a bunch of people show up to your house every weekend for a barbeque, is your home now a restaurant and should have to get a liquor licence?   This doesn't make sense to me. :no:

What they are being fined for is for holding regular Thursday gatherings of up 30 people, and regular Sunday gatherings of up to 50 people. In a house that had an addition built on it to include a large gathering area with a raised stage, pulpit, and rows of seats. In a residential area.

And yes, if you had a huge party with liquor you would indeed have to get a permit, or else you would be raided by the cops.  Also if you have a large group and you are serving alcohol, you would not be able to charge anyone, unless you had a liquior licence or an event permit.  

In the case of bbqing everyweekend.... After awhile you would get a complant by your neighbors and yes the police would come and break it up.  These people were only singled out because they were breaking the law. period.  Just because its a religious reason does not exclude you.  Why do christians always seem to think the law does not pertain to them? Its always the same...

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