61 replies to this topic

[and then]

The bible says that will be the case with the mark of the beast.  Something in your right hand or forehead without which you can't buy or sell.

[Lilly]

Why bother...everyone already carries a cell phone, has a social security number, credit/debit cards. Essentially, no one is anonymous, at least in most developed countries.

[aquatus1]

I have a hard time seeing a system like that for single-party transactions.  In terms of necessity, I mean.

A chip or similar would be extremely useful, and I would definitely get one, in situations where intellectual security and multi-party transactions are used, such as in credit cards, insurance, or medical expenses.  It would be useful for simpler things, like grocery shopping, but hardly essential, in terms of security and exchange.  

Essentally, I can see a chip system being used for major purchases, and as an added value, to be able to use it for minor purchases.  I can't see anyone creating a chip solely for minor purchases, as would need to be done to claim that, without it, you would starve.  It just isn't a complex enough market.

[karmakazi]

No, I wouldn't take it.

[Kryso]

I can't see it myself. People don't want to feel spied on (to conspiracy theorist mainly). And a chip would mean constant surveillance of everyone. Even though that would be a good thing in many ways, because is someone is murdered, or something stolen, you would know who was where and when. S has its benefits and drawbacks.

Edited by Kryso, 19 February 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

Considering that I as a Bible-believing Christian take an A-millennialist approach to Revelation (Eschatology to be clearer) I see no problem in taking a chip.  I don't know whether such will ever happen in my life, but I don't see how computer tech = evil.  Even with the whole "mark of the Beast" issue I don't see any reason why such a mark must be a physical object that will stop us from engaging in commerce.  After all, consider an alternative - in the early years after Jesus those Jews who chose to follow Jesus were subjected to persecution.  At the start it was minor - something as simple as Jewish businesses charging them higher prices than other Jews.  And while I am not an expert enough to say for 100% certain I would probably guess that in extreme cases they were refused business period full stop.  So in terms of the "mark of the Beast" why not think of it in the 1st Century AD context of being charged higher prices (or refused service altogether) while the alternative option is to recant (take the mark of the Beast) and be able to engage in commerce quite normally.  

I'm not saying that this is the definitive interpretation of Revelation, I'm presenting one obvious alternative.  Even without this 1st Century context there is nothing in the text that demands a literal mark or implant that stops a person from engaging in commerce.

Just my thoughts

~ PA

[and then]

Lilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Why bother...everyone already carries a cell phone, has a social security number, credit/debit cards. Essentially, no one is anonymous, at least in most developed countries.

Yes but the question was whether you would allow the technology to be used on you if the consequences for not doing so meant you would cease to exist in the system...no buying, selling, working or eating.

[and then]

Paranoid Android, on 19 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Considering that I as a Bible-believing Christian take an A-millennialist approach to Revelation (Eschatology to be clearer) I see no problem in taking a chip.  I don't know whether such will ever happen in my life, but I don't see how computer tech = evil.  Even with the whole "mark of the Beast" issue I don't see any reason why such a mark must be a physical object that will stop us from engaging in commerce.  After all, consider an alternative - in the early years after Jesus those Jews who chose to follow Jesus were subjected to persecution.  At the start it was minor - something as simple as Jewish businesses charging them higher prices than other Jews.  And while I am not an expert enough to say for 100% certain I would probably guess that in extreme cases they were refused business period full stop.  So in terms of the "mark of the Beast" why not think of it in the 1st Century AD context of being charged higher prices (or refused service altogether) while the alternative option is to recant (take the mark of the Beast) and be able to engage in commerce quite normally.  

I'm not saying that this is the definitive interpretation of Revelation, I'm presenting one obvious alternative.  Even without this 1st Century context there is nothing in the text that demands a literal mark or implant that stops a person from engaging in commerce.

Just my thoughts

~ PA

PA I have no fear of the technology either.  It isn't inherently evil.  In fact it is already being put to very good use in this country in medical settings.  A chip with all your medical history can save lives if it's scanned by a trauma team when you come in unconscious.  I am no scholar but the way the scripture is worded I believe that the choice of receiving the mark will be what damns people.  It will be a conscious choice to serve the AC.  I think the instrument used to enforce that obedience could be a chip or a tat or some as yet unknown technology. It IS interesting that we are seeing such technologies in our lifetimes though. But it is the choice that will be the moment of truth for people over who they will serve.

[The Silver Thong]

and then, on 19 February 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

PA I have no fear of the technology either.  It isn't inherently evil.  In fact it is already being put to very good use in this country in medical settings.  A chip with all your medical history can save lives if it's scanned by a trauma team when you come in unconscious.  I am no scholar but the way the scripture is worded I believe that the choice of receiving the mark will be what damns people.  It will be a conscious choice to serve the AC.  I think the instrument used to enforce that obedience could be a chip or a tat or some as yet unknown technology. It IS interesting that we are seeing such technologies in our lifetimes though. But it is the choice that will be the moment of truth for people over who they will serve.

Would this mean that one would have to choose between starvation and salvation. I think most would choose to take the chip.

[and then]

The Silver Thong, on 19 February 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Would this mean that one would have to choose between starvation and salvation. I think most would choose to take the chip.

According to the bible you are correct.

[Ron Jeremy]

and then, on 19 February 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Yes but the question was whether you would allow the technology to be used on you if the consequences for not doing so meant you would cease to exist in the system...no buying, selling, working or eating.

Pushing such idea will make the regime extremely unpopular. And unlike the Revelation says, I can't see how this will be implemented globally. Since I agree with Jonathan Kirsch on the nature of the Book of Revelation, my opinion on John of Patmos is less than kind.

Maybe Isle of Patmos was a some kind of asylum/gulag for nutjobs back then.

[Paranoid Android]

and then, on 19 February 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

PA I have no fear of the technology either.  It isn't inherently evil.  In fact it is already being put to very good use in this country in medical settings.  A chip with all your medical history can save lives if it's scanned by a trauma team when you come in unconscious.  I am no scholar but the way the scripture is worded I believe that the choice of receiving the mark will be what damns people.  It will be a conscious choice to serve the AC.  I think the instrument used to enforce that obedience could be a chip or a tat or some as yet unknown technology. It IS interesting that we are seeing such technologies in our lifetimes though. But it is the choice that will be the moment of truth for people over who they will serve.

As I said, the book of Revelation is filled with imagery and symbolism.  I do not think that choosing a computer chip is going to decide whether we follow the anti-Christ or not.

[psyche101]

Has such a system not been trialed already in Switzerland or some neutral place?

Or was that just an urban myth?

[Seeker79]

and then, on 19 February 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

The bible says that will be the case with the mark of the beast.  Something in your right hand or forehead without which you can't buy or sell.

It's ready happened. Your SSN is tied to everything you own. And you memorize it, so in a way it is branded in our heads. Ever loose your Wallet? You are cometely helpless with out everything tied to your SSN.

In the new testament, Jhon ( I think) was discussing Nero and what he would evenchually do if given enough time. It's the ultimate idea of governments to survive and control it's people. It's pure evolution at work. The only governments that will suvive into the future are the ones that control people, not people controlling it. It becomes an entity and a beast all it's own. I believe these were the visions received in revelations.

[and then]

Seeker79, on 20 February 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

It's ready happened. Your SSN is tied to everything you own. And you memorize it, so in a way it is branded in our heads. Ever loose your Wallet? You are cometely helpless with out everything tied to your SSN.

In the new testament, Jhon ( I think) was discussing Nero and what he would evenchually do if given enough time. It's the ultimate idea of governments to survive and control it's people. It's pure evolution at work. The only governments that will suvive into the future are the ones that control people, not people controlling it. It becomes an entity and a beast all it's own. I believe these were the visions received in revelations.

So, Seeker you believe that the SSN is the mark?  I think numbering systems for identification are a forerunner to the mark but not the mark itself.  For one thing it is to be global and not all countries use such a system.  But with technology today it is now possible to assign a unique and secure biometric id for every person on the planet.  India is in the middle of digitally photographing and fingerprinting 1.2 billion citizens.  China is embarked on a similar scheme.  I think the technology will have good acceptable uses but that it will be turned against persons of faith in Christ in the last days.  And I think it cannot be a case of being mistaken by the believer.  It will have to be a clear choice that is made with foreknowledge.  It will be a choice to accept the AC as God.