8 replies to this topic

[Karlis]

ieet.org said:

David Pearce, Hplusmagazine: ...  Posted: Feb 19, 2012 ... Reality is big. So our optimism must be confined to sentient beings in our forward light-cone.But I tentatively predict that the last experience below "hedonic zero" will be a precisely dateable event several hundred years hence. Read more...

  What are your thoughts? Please discuss your ideas.

[Leave Britney alone!]

It is another form of hyperreality which I do not consider ideal.

We want to live forever but need to learn to age gracefully. We want to be super human but have not even exploited/taken advantage of what it is just to be a regular human.

[3amfright]

Karlis, on 19 February 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

What are your thoughts? Please discuss your ideas.

Evolution. Mother nature. God. All of thee above or controlled chaos.

Whom ever you choose to be held responsible for life as we known it, they created a system that works in perfect yin & yang. The only creature among it all that believes it is above it is humanity & in our own egotistical beliefs we'll destroy what we still don't know or respect.

If there is no conflict then there is no growth & no respect & understanding of the value of life.

Altering ones pain threshold to ease their suffering (I myself suffer from chronic pain) could very well ruin what biology may be working on that we can't see yet.

Phasing out predators will teach us only lack of respect, fear, & how little we understand the necessity of a food change, the biological (natural) dying off of a species & the multitude of other species whose lives depend upon the progression & decline of the predators.

When will we learn that if we spend our time trying to 'fix' or 'control' everything 'our way' we're simply going to destroy it in the end? Isn't the road to hell paved with good deeds?

[psyche101]

Indeed 3amfright, what door would we be opening? If we are to do away with predators, that would also mean scavengers as well wouldn't it? Could that not open a pandoras box of epidemics? I noticed that the article has a link to Jeff McMahan’s article in the New York Times. I am not sure if it is "Landmark" Material, but in it, I see interesting questions posed like this:

But ought we to go further?  Suppose that we could arrange the gradual extinction of carnivorous species, replacing them with new herbivorous ones.  Or suppose that we could intervene genetically, so that currently carnivorous species would gradually evolve into herbivorous ones, thereby fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecy.  If we could bring about the end of predation by one or the other of these means at little cost to ourselves, ought we to do it?

LINK - The Meat Eaters By JEFF MCMAHAN

The Author says:

I concede, of course, that it would be unwise to attempt any such change given the current state of our scientific understanding.  Our ignorance of the potential ramifications of our interventions in the natural world remains profound.  Efforts to eliminate certain species and create new ones would have many unforeseeable and potentially catastrophic effects.

I think the picture is larger than that again.

[Verneph]

3amfright said it.

This is the most illogical thing I've ever seen in my life. The world works as it does for a reason, and pain exists for a reason. Let me just go through this step-by-step:

"We Shall Soon Be Able To Choose Our Own Level Of Pain-Sensitivity"

This would be okay in terms of pain-killers for the deathly ill, but for normal humans? Pain is necessary for us to know what is bad for our bodies. Just because you eliminate pain does not mean you eliminate the damage caused by injuries. Pain is how you know touching fire burns and hitting yourself in the head with a stone is bad.

"We Can Soon Choose How Rewarding We Want Our Daily Life To Be"

Oh, that's good. The current generation is already full of spoiled, rotten little brats with a ridiculous sense of entitlement. Let's just make everyone the freaking same. All happy little zombies who are genetically similar. Look, evolution and culture both absolutely thrive on genetic anomalies. Most of history's greatest minds could be called genetic deviants, perhaps suffering from autism or another disorder. To take control of genetic structure out of the hands of mother nature would be to halt the evolution of the human race, not speed it up.

"Steak Lovers and Vegans Alike Can Soon Eat Cruelty-Free Diets"

I have an idea: how about just let humans eat freaking meat like every other omnivorous species on the planet? Genetically modified plants already cause enough controversy as it is. Now we're growing meat? Yea, that's going to go over real well.

"Carnivorous Nonhuman Predators Can Be Phased Out Too"

Are you insane? No, really, how...what? "Phasing out" entire species? I presume that means eliminating, which implies killing, which would be insanely hypocritical I might add considering this whole "compassionate ecosystem" thing we're talking about. Look, evolution and life itself demands some form of predation. It needs to happen, and you cannot change that unless you plan on halting all evolutionary progress. Then you have to find some way to control herbivore populations (good luck with "compassionately" doing that) and what about the plants, hm? Where are their rights? They're living things too, you know.

Look, with the sole exception of most plants, all life continues to live by consuming other life. That's how it works.

"We May Be On The Eve Of An “Intelligence Explosion”"

Define intelligence please because judging from these five suggestions I must have a very different definition of the word "intelligence". Don't throw around transhumanism like those that follow it are on some kind of moral and intellectual hierarchy. You're not, and in my personal opinion transhumanism is a concept disillusioned with the workings of the actual world. You can't end suffering. It is a fact of life. Compassion is a wonderful thing to have, but not at the cost of more realistic understandings of how life works.

Edited by Verneph, 21 February 2012 - 07:17 PM.

[3amfright]

Verneph, on 21 February 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

3amfright said it.

This is the most illogical thing I've ever seen in my life. The world works as it does for a reason, and pain exists for a reason. Let me just go through this step-by-step:

"We Shall Soon Be Able To Choose Our Own Level Of Pain-Sensitivity"

This would be okay in terms of pain-killers for the deathly ill, but for normal humans? Pain is necessary for us to know what is bad for our bodies. Just because you eliminate pain does not mean you eliminate the damage caused by injuries. Pain is how you know touching fire burns and hitting yourself in the head with a stone is bad.

"We Can Soon Choose How Rewarding We Want Our Daily Life To Be"

Oh, that's good. The current generation is already full of spoiled, rotten little brats with a ridiculous sense of entitlement. Let's just make everyone the freaking same. All happy little zombies who are genetically similar. Look, evolution and culture both absolutely thrive on genetic anomalies. Most of history's greatest minds could be called genetic deviants, perhaps suffering from autism or another disorder. To take control of genetic structure out of the hands of mother nature would be to halt the evolution of the human race, not speed it up.

"Steak Lovers and Vegans Alike Can Soon Eat Cruelty-Free Diets"

I have an idea: how about just let humans eat freaking meat like every other omnivorous species on the planet? Genetically modified plants already cause enough controversy as it is. Now we're growing meat? Yea, that's going to go over real well.

"Carnivorous Nonhuman Predators Can Be Phased Out Too"

Are you insane? No, really, how...what? "Phasing out" entire species? I presume that means eliminating, which implies killing, which would be insanely hypocritical I might add considering this whole "compassionate ecosystem" thing we're talking about. Look, evolution and life itself demands some form of predation. It needs to happen, and you cannot change that unless you plan on halting all evolutionary progress. Then you have to find some way to control herbivore populations (good luck with "compassionately" doing that) and what about the plants, hm? Where are their rights? They're living things too, you know.

Look, with the sole exception of most plants, all life continues to live by consuming other life. That's how it works.

"We May Be On The Eve Of An “Intelligence Explosion”"

Define intelligence please because judging from these five suggestions I must have a very different definition of the word "intelligence". Don't throw around transhumanism like those that follow it are on some kind of moral and intellectual hierarchy. You're not, and in my personal opinion transhumanism is a concept disillusioned with the workings of the actual world. You can't end suffering. It is a fact of life. Compassion is a wonderful thing to have, but not at the cost of more realistic understandings of how life works.

Agreed. Pure idiocy.Are we not already proving to ourselves how destructive our "lets be perfect" nature is with antibacterial soaps & avoidance of every day contaminants by attempting to remove them from our environments? We've been having a small but deadly outbreak of a strand of flue for the last seven years killing not only the elderly but strong young adults who shouldn't be so affected. I wont deny I fully believe we're responsible for the virus. We keep poking & prodding & creating antibiotics based off of known strands but over sanitizing hasn't eliminated the dangers. In fact we've only given the bacteria more deadly factors to adapt to & integrate with that we have left generations vulnerable.

Sometimes things just need to be let be or all our precious snowflakes we coddle into conformity are going to disappear just as quickly as snow does when the sun comes up.

Ever see the movie "The Sound of Thunder" ? I recommend it to those who haven't. Says it all quite devastatingly perfect.

[3amfright]

psyche101, on 21 February 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Indeed 3amfright, what door would we be opening? If we are to do away with predators, that would also mean scavengers as well wouldn't it? Could that not open a pandoras box of epidemics? I noticed that the article has a link to Jeff McMahan’s article in the New York Times. I am not sure if it is "Landmark" Material, but in it, I see interesting questions posed like this:

But ought we to go further?  Suppose that we could arrange the gradual extinction of carnivorous species, replacing them with new herbivorous ones.  Or suppose that we could intervene genetically, so that currently carnivorous species would gradually evolve into herbivorous ones, thereby fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecy.  If we could bring about the end of predation by one or the other of these means at little cost to ourselves, ought we to do it?

LINK - The Meat Eaters By JEFF MCMAHAN

The Author says:

I concede, of course, that it would be unwise to attempt any such change given the current state of our scientific understanding.  Our ignorance of the potential ramifications of our interventions in the natural world remains profound.  Efforts to eliminate certain species and create new ones would have many unforeseeable and potentially catastrophic effects.

I think the picture is larger than that again.

If we are to follow the guidance of all prophets than should we just not prepare for oblivion? Do not most prophets value the higher self beyond the physical body? Isn't that just finding glory in death? What good is there in reaching a higher level of self if one has reached no level of understanding or respect for the physical self now?

Maybe I'm just a deviant but I like my physical self, pain & misery & predators & all. There is much life in living with all of these. Altering anything would be worse than Pandora's box....or perhaps we have yet to accept that the human ego is one of the disease freed from the box. It is, after all, one of the most deadliest to exist out of all.

[psyche101]

3amfright, on 22 February 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

If we are to follow the guidance of all prophets than should we just not prepare for oblivion? Do not most prophets value the higher self beyond the physical body? Isn't that just finding glory in death? What good is there in reaching a higher level of self if one has reached no level of understanding or respect for the physical self now?

Maybe I'm just a deviant but I like my physical self, pain & misery & predators & all. There is much life in living with all of these. Altering anything would be worse than Pandora's box....or perhaps we have yet to accept that the human ego is one of the disease freed from the box. It is, after all, one of the most deadliest to exist out of all.

I do like the way you think! I have to agree with everything you have said up there, particularly about the physical self here and now. That is so very well phrased. Not sure I am with you on liking pain (LOL, I know what you mean) , but all the same I would not give it away either, as you say, that stab of fear, the rush of adrenaline, all the factors of the chase and the hunt in all aspects of being, every now and then reminds one that one is human, and a kick in the complacency from time to time is a good way of remembering what we have around us, and why we should cherish it for this somewhat brief existence. Yes indeed, lets leave tofu eating Lions out of the picture that already exists. If we did not have pain and suffering, I think many normals aspects of life that we take for granted now would be much harder to deal with on a daily basis.

I am not sure that heaven sounds all that heavenly with any of the salesmen trying to sell tickets to it anyway. Lions that eat grass? 72 virgins? Not to die for IMHO.

[Cassea]

As someone who struggled with a great deal of pain for some time.  I do think the idea of pain relief is very important.  There were days when the pain was so excruciating all I could do was vomit and retch. I couldn't believe the level of pain.  And it was all encompassing.   It felt as if I wanted to crawl out of my skin.  If someone had offered to just shoot me then I probably would have begged for it, if meds weren't available.   Thinking of how meds mess up your mind so you have a problem with feeling alive.  So an alternative for that will make enormous changes in the world.  It will be good to know we don't have to cause pain to animals as well.