165 replies to this topic

[Verneph]

Now I haven't had much time to really develop this theory as I quite literally just thought of it, but just hear me out on this.

Now the vast majority of religions talk about how God is an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise divine being but...what if It's not? That would explain one of the biggest arguments against the existence of God (namely, why does he let horrible things happen if he's so good and exists?). Maybe God literally can't intervene in everything. Maybe It (I call God "It", sue me) simply doesn't have the ability to intervene in everything. Perhaps It can only set things in motion, and we are expected to handle ourselves from there.

Now it's my personal belief that the latter is true in that God expects humans to help themselves rather than wait for It to give free handouts, but perhaps there's a bit more to it than that? Thoughts?

[Arbenol68]

If you mean there was an intelligent designer whose sole influence was to get things going (like winding up a clock-work frog and just watching what it does without intervening) - then I think that probably doesn't fit most people's definition of what a god is.

I think this scenario is more likely than there being a god that actively gets involved and actually cares (albeit, probably unlikely).

[questionmark]

Well, lets see this old Rabbi Dilemma: Can God create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?

The question is: How do you define all powerful?

[P4UL N0153]

You're trying to argue an Axiom, and that's not going to work. God, by definition, is all powerful. Therefore, if it isn't all powerful, then it isn't God. It's something else. It's like asking what if water wasn't a liquid? By definition, water is the liquid form of H₂O, so to try and go anywhere with that idea is kind of pointless.

[karmakazi]

 Mr. Scratch, on 22 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

You're trying to argue an Axiom, and that's not going to work. God, by definition, is all powerful. Therefore, if it isn't all powerful, then it isn't God. It's something else. It's like asking what if water wasn't a liquid? By definition, water is the liquid form of H₂O, so to try and go anywhere with that idea is kind of pointless.

There's a difference between the way we understand the term "god" today and what the beings described in ancient documents actually were.  It could be one and the same, but that does not seem to be the case.

The only way we know that the "gods" were all powerful is because the documents that talk about the gods being all powerful.  It cancels itself out because both the concept of "god" and of "all powerful" essentially come from the same place. We can't know if those documents were accurate, influenced, or as in the case of the old testament, the people writing the document were told by Jehovah that the reason he made things so difficult for them was so that he could do greater wonders and convince them of his greatness.  (Exodus 10:1-2)

It's how "history" was written but it doesn't mean it was true... and since those cultures ultimately begat our cultures, our concepts of the terms come from them... and thousands of years of interperetations and building upon the concepts.

We can't know what they meant or even if they understood what they were seeing...   if the stories have any truth at all.


So I guess for me, I don't think the god of the bible was all powerful... I think that he was a mortal being of some type and wanted the Israelites to think he was all powerful and revere him above all.  He didn't seem to have interest in having the world revere him... just the Israelites.  But I also don't think that he is the "father" of whom Jesus spoke.

[P4UL N0153]

 karmakazi, on 22 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

There's a difference between the way we understand the term "god" today and what the beings described in ancient documents actually were.  It could be one and the same, but that does not seem to be the case.

The only way we know that the "gods" were all powerful is because the documents that talk about the gods being all powerful.  It cancels itself out because both the concept of "god" and of "all powerful" essentially come from the same place. We can't know if those documents were accurate, influenced, or as in the case of the old testament, the people writing the document were told by Jehovah that the reason he made things so difficult for them was so that he could do greater wonders and convince them of his greatness.  (Exodus 10:1-2)

It's how "history" was written but it doesn't mean it was true... and since those cultures ultimately begat our cultures, our concepts of the terms come from them... and thousands of years of interperetations and building upon the concepts.

We can't know what they meant or even if they understood what they were seeing...   if the stories have any truth at all.


So I guess for me, I don't think the god of the bible was all powerful... I think that he was a mortal being of some type and wanted the Israelites to think he was all powerful and revere him above all.  He didn't seem to have interest in having the world revere him... just the Israelites.  But I also don't think that he is the "father" of whom Jesus spoke.

Right...that's what I said. You are trying to define something other than God. If this mortal being that was pretty powerful, but not all powerful, who was trying to convince an ancient tribal people that it was allpowerful, then what your are describing needs a definition, be it a more advanced humanoid like the theory of Atlantis advocates, or an Alien that wanted to rule humans or something. No matter what, it's not God your talking about, it's something else.

[and then]

 Verneph, on 22 February 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Now I haven't had much time to really develop this theory as I quite literally just thought of it, but just hear me out on this.

Now the vast majority of religions talk about how God is an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise divine being but...what if It's not? That would explain one of the biggest arguments against the existence of God (namely, why does he let horrible things happen if he's so good and exists?). Maybe God literally can't intervene in everything. Maybe It (I call God "It", sue me) simply doesn't have the ability to intervene in everything. Perhaps It can only set things in motion, and we are expected to handle ourselves from there.

Now it's my personal belief that the latter is true in that God expects humans to help themselves rather than wait for It to give free handouts, but perhaps there's a bit more to it than that? Thoughts?

Provided you believe in the God of the Bible, you overlook the many miracles of Christ as a man and those He performed for the Israelites in the desert wanderings.  He can intervene.  Why He chooses not to is a mystery to me but it doesn't stop me from believing. I also believe that this existence is a test for us as we proceed to the next.  The bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God"  I think that the test of faith itself is somehow profound for Him when he see us.

[questionmark]

 Mr. Scratch, on 22 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

You're trying to argue an Axiom, and that's not going to work. God, by definition, is all powerful. Therefore, if it isn't all powerful, then it isn't God. It's something else. It's like asking what if water wasn't a liquid? By definition, water is the liquid form of H₂O, so to try and go anywhere with that idea is kind of pointless.

No, the point is that either He is all powerful or He is not. And that simple far fetched rabbinic example illustrates the point perfectly: Nothing, and that includes God, is so powerful that it can neutralize its power. That is, if there is a God He (SHE, IT) does not have the power to cease being a God, and therefore not all powerful. Even Gods have to stick to rules, maybe a few less than the simple mortal but they have rules. Rules make you less powerful, if you are less powerful you are not omnipotent.

[HavocWing]

What about a delusional arrogant madman who thought he could conquer and control the world, and failed miserably.

[I Am Not Resisting]

 HavocWing, on 23 February 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

What about a delusional arrogant madman who thought he could conquer and control the world, and failed miserably.

Napoleon?

[Habitat]

 I Am Not Resisting, on 23 February 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

Napoleon?

Don't be silly, he's talking about Hitler. I think ?  

[and then]

 HavocWing, on 23 February 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

What about a delusional arrogant madman who thought he could conquer and control the world, and failed miserably.

HW I'm curious.  Is it that you really hate the concept of God or do you just get off on trying to offend believers?  Your schtick got boring for me after the first dozen rants.  You have a right to say anything you want and it doesn't harm believers but I just don't understand the need to intentionally offend strangers as an M.O. for life.  Just curious, guy.

[I Am Not Resisting]

 Habitat, on 23 February 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Don't be silly, he's talking about Hitler. I think ?  

Oh...well that makes just as much sense.

[HavocWing]

 and then, on 23 February 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

HW I'm curious.  Is it that you really hate the concept of God or do you just get off on trying to offend believers?  Your schtick got boring for me after the first dozen rants.  You have a right to say anything you want and it doesn't harm believers but I just don't understand the need to intentionally offend strangers as an M.O. for life.  Just curious, guy.

The post is about what if god isn't all powerful, I gave a reasonable answer.  Why take offense to it??  You could never imagine the harm the influence of "god" has been on me and my family.  He's not the nice you guy's portray him to be.

My answer is very logical.

Edited by HavocWing, 23 February 2012 - 02:04 AM.

[Hawkins]

The all powerfulness is measured (perhaps defined) by deception. 0 deception = all powerful. It is because deception is tooling for the not-all-powerful to get what he wants. So if Satan is all powerful, he doesn't need deception, he just gets what he wants as he wishes. Satan needs deception simply because he's not all powerful.

On the other hand, God hates deception, (because) He can get what He wants without that tooling.

As for the definition. All powerful = you can get whatever you will wants to get!