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Who do you believe on global warming?


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#1    Little Fish

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:23 AM

By Dr David M.W. Evans

"We check the main predictions of the climate models against the best and latest data. Fortunately the climate models got all their major predictions wrong. Why? Every serious skeptical scientist has been consistently saying essentially the same thing for over 20 years, yet most people have never heard the message here it is, put simply enough for any lay reader willing to pay attention....."

http://wattsupwithth...-skeptics-case/


#2    godnodog

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:56 AM

I believe in data, but I also believe that simulation models for future climate are grossly incomplete, they dont take in consideration the sun, cosmic radiation etc.

I also think that global warming is real, or should I say weather pattern changing, but not for the reasons currently mainstream, for the reasons I stated before.

But Im also in favor with cutting emissions of greenhouse gases only if to prevent further damage to our ecosystem.


#3    Flibbertigibbet

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:57 AM

Why is an earth that is hotter and wetter a bad thing? Those are precisely the two conditions conducive to life.


#4    BFB

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:13 PM

View Postgodnodog, on 27 February 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I believe in data, but I also believe that simulation models for future climate are grossly incomplete, they dont take in consideration the sun, cosmic radiation etc.

I also think that global warming is real, or should I say weather pattern changing, but not for the reasons currently mainstream, for the reasons I stated before.

But Im also in favor with cutting emissions of greenhouse gases only if to prevent further damage to our ecosystem..

Well said. Our current prediction models are laughable.

"Its not true, until my brain says so" - BFB

#5    Doug1o29

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:46 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 27 February 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

By Dr David M.W. Evans

"We check the main predictions of the climate models against the best and latest data. Fortunately the climate models got all their major predictions wrong. Why? Every serious skeptical scientist has been consistently saying essentially the same thing for over 20 years, yet most people have never heard the message here it is, put simply enough for any lay reader willing to pay attention....."
Nobody ever said climate models were perfect.

If your watch doesn't work, it will be "right" twice a day, but if it gains two minutes a day, it will be "right" only once every 360 days.  Which would you rather have?
That's the situation with climate models.  They aren't exact and they never will be, but they are close enough for some purposes.  Are they close enough for yours?  And how close is that?
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#6    Little Fish

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:16 AM

View PostDoug1o29, on 28 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Nobody ever said climate models were perfect.

If your watch doesn't work, it will be "right" twice a day, but if it gains two minutes a day, it will be "right" only once every 360 days.  Which would you rather have?
That's the situation with climate models.  They aren't exact and they never will be, but they are close enough for some purposes.  Are they close enough for yours?  And how close is that?
Doug
read the WHOLE article, it explains why global warming is not an issue.
why did you cut out the link from my quote?
http://wattsupwithth...-skeptics-case/

here's another by richard Lindzen. it also explains why global warming is not an issue.
http://i.telegraph.c...ns_2148505a.pdf

Edited by Little Fish, 29 February 2012 - 01:30 AM.


#7    BFB

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:53 AM

View PostDoug1o29, on 28 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

That's the situation with climate models.  They aren't exact and they never will be, but they are close enough for some purposes.


Which are?

View PostDoug1o29, on 28 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Are they close enough for yours?

There so many problems with our current models but if we could overcome the below problems i would believe we would be able to get closer to a better level of predictions.

1. Current uncertainties in the TSI and aerosol forcings are huge, even Hansen agress with this.
2. Data used for climate models only goes back to 1850.
3. Most of our climate models are done in Fortran!

Btw climate models are full of fudge factors so they agree with the observed data, so there is no reason to believe they would indicate the correct behavior in a world with different chemistry.

View PostDoug1o29, on 28 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

And how close is that?

A level of accuracy around 60-90% would be perfect. Its funny that atmospheric scientists has to be able to predict weather with high level of accuracy, but when comes to climatologist predicting future climate at an extremly low accuracy is okay in the eyes of the public. Why the **** dont they use some of their HUGE funding to overcome this problem. A first step would be not to use Fortran!

"Its not true, until my brain says so" - BFB

#8    lightly

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:39 PM

Two obvious indicators of a currently warming earth, at least portions and altitudes of,  are the facts that Arctic sea ice is retreating, and Glaciers are melting  all over the earth at accelerating rates.   Glaciers are now melting much faster than they are being replenished. Glacier melt is troubling because many of the earth's major rivers, and the people whose well being depend on those rivers,  rely on glacier melt, and mountain snows which are also diminishing,  as their main sources of water.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#9    Doug1o29

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 29 February 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

why did you cut out the link from my quote?
I wasn't replying to your link.  No point in wasting space.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#10    Doug1o29

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:24 PM

View PostBFB, on 29 February 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Which are?
Whether a model is accurate enough depends on the person who is proposing to use it.  I spend my time looking at past climates, mostly the 20th century.  I have little need for climate models.

Quote

There so many problems with our current models but if we could overcome the below problems i would believe we would be able to get closer to a better level of predictions.

1. Current uncertainties in the TSI and aerosol forcings are huge, even Hansen agress with this.
2. Data used for climate models only goes back to 1850.
3. Most of our climate models are done in Fortran!

Btw climate models are full of fudge factors so they agree with the observed data, so there is no reason to believe they would indicate the correct behavior in a world with different chemistry.

A level of accuracy around 60-90% would be perfect. Its funny that atmospheric scientists has to be able to predict weather with high level of accuracy, but when comes to climatologist predicting future climate at an extremly low accuracy is okay in the eyes of the public. Why the **** dont they use some of their HUGE funding to overcome this problem. A first step would be not to use Fortran!
Climate modeling is very much a developing art/science.  It has a ways to go.  I note that models now in use don't give the same extreme forecasts as those in use in the early 1990s.

I expect it will be another ten years before models get good enough to actually be useful outside of the science, itself, before they are good enough to make reasonable forecasts at a local level.

Most of my work produces accuracies around 30 to 50%.  I did get an 86% yesterday on whether droughts and ice storms are correlated.  I'm wondering whether that's good enough to publish.  BTW:  the number of ice storms in the central US took a nosedive in 1997.  It's about half of what it was in the 1980s.  There were a lot of ice storms from 1963-1970, matching up with a slump in global temps.  And there were a lot in the 1930s, same time-frame as the Dust Bowl.  So the climate is changing, but at least in regard to ice storms, I'm not sure exactly how it is changing.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#11    questionmark

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:51 PM

Believing is for religion. In science only the data is relevant.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
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#12    Little Fish

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 06:04 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 29 February 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Believing is for religion. In science only the data is relevant.
the line "who are you going to believe" is the subtitle of the article.
http://jonova.s3.ama...eptics-case.pdf

the data does not support what the government climate scientists say.
the data supports what the skeptics say.
so who do you believe on global warming? the skeptics or the government paid climate scientists?

Edited by Little Fish, 29 February 2012 - 06:05 PM.


#13    questionmark

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 06:39 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 29 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

the line "who are you going to believe" is the subtitle of the article.
http://jonova.s3.ama...eptics-case.pdf

the data does not support what the government climate scientists say.
the data supports what the skeptics say.
so who do you believe on global warming? the skeptics or the government paid climate scientists?

The data does not support some of their predictions, which is why they are called that. But the data confirms that this planet bis heating up, lately with an accelerated tendency.

No wonder you have problems understanding this if you don';t know the difference between a measurement and a trend predicted based on those figures.

We don't know exactly how it will end because we never had the chance before to be out in the numbers we are causing changes to the atmosphere and the micro climate in the extend we do now.

And, besides a few sectarians, there is not a single climatologist (even those hired by Exxon defected) who will say that the data does not support that the planet is warming and that the peak is not yet reached.

But, I can say that the skeptics predictions (i.e. the hottest year was 2004 and after that it would cool off, etc.) have been met much less than the predictions of where we could be now, as in 2006, 2007 2008, and 2010 the temperatures of 2004 were matched or surpassed. The biggest joke so far in all this is the Monkton Mission where he was sent into the world with a partial data compilation to prove that the temperature increase had peaked off, just to be beaten the next year.

If there is somebody working on believe and hope it is the so-called skeptics because once you check their "assertions" you always find the three articles of believe instead of hard data. And anybody filtering out a subset of data of a complex to prove his point (which is exactly the skeptic's modus operandi) has as much chance of being right as winning the lotto jackpot. Where skeptics is certainly not the right adjective. Ghost hunter sounds more adequate.

What I wonder is what type of following they have, because so far they have been proven wrong many more times than the climatologists and more times than that they have been picking on something totally irrelevant to discuss the problem away (indicating that their field of expertise is politics, not climate).

So, I'll stick with the temperature records and the simple fact that if all other can be discarded as cause (geothermia, sun activity and whathaveyou) the remaining ones, no matter how improbable is it. And that points to human activity and overpopulation.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
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#14    Doug1o29

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 06:49 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 29 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

the line "who are you going to believe" is the subtitle of the article.
http://jonova.s3.ama...eptics-case.pdf

the data does not support what the government climate scientists say.
the data supports what the skeptics say.
so who do you believe on global warming? the skeptics or the government paid climate scientists?
I believe the data.  But then, I AM a government paid climate scientist.

Actually, I don't need to use those temperature profiles constructed by Hansen et al.  I can look at my own data.  I haven't checked for changing temps yet, but that's coming.  I can see climate changes in such things as decreased numbers of ice storms since 1997 and increasing precip since about that same time.  That's from data I collected.  Something is changing the climate.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#15    Little Fish

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:06 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 29 February 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

besides a few sectarians, there is not a single climatologist (even those hired by Exxon defected) who will say that the data does not support that the planet is warming and that the peak is not yet reached.

the following points are not controversial among serious climate scientists. None of the points implies alarm. Indeed the actual warming is consistent with less than 1C warming for a doubling.

1. Carbon Dioxide has been increasing
2. There is a greenhouse effect
3. There has been a doubling of equivalent CO2 over the past 150 years
4. There has very probably been about 0.8 C warming in the past 150 years
5. Increasing CO2 alone should cause some warming (about 1C for each doubling)


http://i.telegraph.c...ns_2148505a.pdf





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