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What is the state-of-the-evidence for psi


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#1    encouraged

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:11 AM

It is really neat that I could have put this in the Science and Technology catagory, too! I think there was some discussion a while back about evidences of of paranormal or such. Those people may find this interesting (bolding and color are mine.)

Quote

The Parapsychological Association is an international professional organization of scientists and scholars engaged in the study of psi (or 'psychic') experiences, such as telepathy, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, psychic healing, and precognition.  The primary objective of the PA is to achieve a scientific understanding of these experiences.

First established in 1957, the PA has been an affiliated organization of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) since 1969.  The PA is a non-profit, non-adjudicating organization that endorses no ideologies or beliefs other than the value of rigorous scientific and scholarly inquiry.
Registration to the site is free. Affiliate membership is $US85.

View: From

What is the state-of-the-evidence for psi?
Published by  Parapsychological Association on Friday, February 11, 2011

To be precise, when we say that "X exists," we mean that the presently available, cumulative statistical database for experiments studying X, provides strong, scientifically credible evidence for repeatable, anomalous, X-like effects.

With this in mind, ESP exists, presentiment (physical changes in skin reactivity, pupil size, heart rate, and other factors indicating precognition before a stimulus is applied) exists, telepathy (direct mind-mind communication) exists, and mind-matter interaction (previously known as psychokinesis or PK) exists. The survival of bodily death remains unproven, though there is suggestive evidence for this from the reincarnation research performed by Ian Stevenson and others. (Note that we are using the terms ESP, telepathy and MMI in the technical sense, not in the popular sense. See What do parapsychologists study?)

ESP is statistically robust, meaning it can be reliably demonstrated through repeated trials. However, it may vary it but it tends to be weak when simple geometric symbols are used as targets. Photographic or video targets often produce effects many times larger, and there is some evidence that ESP on natural locations (as opposed to photos of them), and in natural contexts may be stronger still. Also, a lot has been learned about what kinds of conditions (such as the partial sensory deprivation used in the Ganzfeld) can enhance psi.

Some mind-matter interaction (MMI) effects have also been shown to exist. When individuals focus their intention on mechanical or electronic devices that fluctuate randomly, the fluctuations change in ways that conform to their mental intention. Under control conditions, when individuals direct their attention elsewhere, the fluctuations are in accordance with chance.

It should be noted that an increasing number of parapsychologists are moving beyond proof-oriented research (feeling that psi has already been sufficiently proven for anyone willing to actually read and consider the experimental research) to process-oriented, qualitative research. These studies are looking at a variety of factors (such as the kind of target used) to better understand these phenomena.

Edited by encouraged, 29 February 2012 - 01:15 AM.


#2    Sakari

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 03:34 AM

This did not take long to find, and there are many, many, many of these....If it is to good to be true, it usually is :)


This greater willingness to study (alleged) psychic functioning of reported frauds was exemplified at the 1986 Parapsychological Association (PA) convention, where three papers presented work with persons previously reported to have engaged in fraudulent activity (Egely & Vertesy, 19863; Stewart, Roll, & Baumann, 19864; Warren & Don, 19865). This is not an isolated instance. As seen in the Table, every annual convention of the PA since 1980 has included papers reporting positive results from subjects who later admitted to or were reported as having used trickery at some point in their careers.


Much more at link below :

                                                                                                     


http://www.trickster...psychology.html




Edited by Sakari, 29 February 2012 - 03:37 AM.

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http://petsupports.com/a04/sakari.htm


#3    White Crane Feather

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:00 AM

View Postencouraged, on 29 February 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

It is really neat that I could have put this in the Science and Technology catagory, too! I think there was some discussion a while back about evidences of of paranormal or such. Those people may find this interesting (bolding and color are mine.)


Registration to the site is free. Affiliate membership is $US85.

View: From

What is the state-of-the-evidence for psi?
Published by  Parapsychological Association on Friday, February 11, 2011

To be precise, when we say that "X exists," we mean that the presently available, cumulative statistical database for experiments studying X, provides strong, scientifically credible evidence for repeatable, anomalous, X-like effects.

With this in mind, ESP exists, presentiment (physical changes in skin reactivity, pupil size, heart rate, and other factors indicating precognition before a stimulus is applied) exists, telepathy (direct mind-mind communication) exists, and mind-matter interaction (previously known as psychokinesis or PK) exists. The survival of bodily death remains unproven, though there is suggestive evidence for this from the reincarnation research performed by Ian Stevenson and others. (Note that we are using the terms ESP, telepathy and MMI in the technical sense, not in the popular sense. See What do parapsychologists study?)

ESP is statistically robust, meaning it can be reliably demonstrated through repeated trials. However, it may vary it but it tends to be weak when simple geometric symbols are used as targets. Photographic or video targets often produce effects many times larger, and there is some evidence that ESP on natural locations (as opposed to photos of them), and in natural contexts may be stronger still. Also, a lot has been learned about what kinds of conditions (such as the partial sensory deprivation used in the Ganzfeld) can enhance psi.

Some mind-matter interaction (MMI) effects have also been shown to exist. When individuals focus their intention on mechanical or electronic devices that fluctuate randomly, the fluctuations change in ways that conform to their mental intention. Under control conditions, when individuals direct their attention elsewhere, the fluctuations are in accordance with chance.

It should be noted that an increasing number of parapsychologists are moving beyond proof-oriented research (feeling that psi has already been sufficiently proven for anyone willing to actually read and consider the experimental research) to process-oriented, qualitative research. These studies are looking at a variety of factors (such as the kind of target used) to better understand these phenomena.
It dosnt matter what anyone finds or dosnt find my friend. The fact is that no matter how real or not real any of it is, people will continue to only accept explanations within their world view based on their own axioms. No matter how well the science is done Somone is always going to come up with a creative rebuttal... And materialist will jump on it as valed. I can give a wonderful creative explanation of why the sun actually rotates around the earth and if somone already believed it then it's truth. Of coure it cuts both ways. Those with command of rederik and charisma win the day.

All it takes is Somone to create plausable flaws in said experiments and a materialist will invalidate them instantly. Wether they are real results or not.

View PostSakari, on 29 February 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

This did not take long to find, and there are many, many, many of these....If it is to good to be true, it usually is :)


This greater willingness to study (alleged) psychic functioning of reported frauds was exemplified at the 1986 Parapsychological Association (PA) convention, where three papers presented work with persons previously reported to have engaged in fraudulent activity (Egely & Vertesy, 19863; Stewart, Roll, & Baumann, 19864; Warren & Don, 19865). This is not an isolated instance. As seen in the Table, every annual convention of the PA since 1980 has included papers reporting positive results from subjects who later admitted to or were reported as having used trickery at some point in their careers.


Much more at link below :

                                                                                                     


http://www.trickster...psychology.html


See.., told yu. Even with Sakaris usual diligence the newest source in his link is from 1988. Yup 24 years ago. We barely had care phones then. The level io error avoidance is obviously much more sophisticated now, and results are much harder to fake. Not to mention experiments must be repeatable to be valed.

Edited by Seeker79, 29 February 2012 - 08:22 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#4    encouraged

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:43 AM

The only reason I would post such a thing is because it is under the AAAS. Well, that and my own experiences. I went through heaps of readings on precognition of every theory and every type to find nothing like that which I experience. And then came across this research. I consider it authoritative.


#5    White Crane Feather

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 09:07 AM

View Postencouraged, on 29 February 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

The only reason I would post such a thing is because it is under the AAAS. Well, that and my own experiences. I went through heaps of readings on precognition of every theory and every type to find nothing like that which I experience. And then came across this research. I consider it authoritative.
Well yes. There are plenty of repeatable experiments out there That include locking people away from each other and scanning their brains. There are obviouse results. Now I must admit I have not followed through with researching the research. But I have not heard of any repetitions of the experiments with negative statistical results. Sounds like fun actually. I'll be back to this thread.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#6    aquatus1

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:48 PM

View Postencouraged, on 29 February 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

The only reason I would post such a thing is because it is under the AAAS. Well, that and my own experiences. I went through heaps of readings on precognition of every theory and every type to find nothing like that which I experience. And then came across this research. I consider it authoritative.

Well, let's not get too carried away.  That it is an affiliate of the AAAS is a fine thing, and that their membership has been challenged and was not revoked is a testament that they have kept to the guidelines of affiliation.  That said, there are over 260 affiliates with the AAAS, and as long as these affiliates can actually demonstrate that they are legitimately and sincerely pursuing scientific research, that is really all it take.  Being an affiliate of the AAAS does not automatically grant you the same credibility as the AAAS, nor does it mean the AAAS acknowledges (much less endorses) your findings.  

That said, the Parapsychological Association has shown itself to be an honest, scientific, body.  Yes, they have their problems and their rotten apples, but not really much more than any other academic field, and in all honesty, for a field like parapsychology, that's doing pretty darn good.  Their work has been published in AAAS's journal, Nature, one of (possible even "the") most pre-eminent scientific journals on the planet.  They are a respectable organization. and earned that respect in the same way all the others did: good science.


Now, like any other set of scientists, one has to be careful of what they are crediting to what.  The OP is not, after all, a scientific argument.  It is barely an association's postulate.  It is not intended to, nor would any serious scientist consider it as, a definitive statement regarding the position of the Parapsychological Association.  Yes, their mission statement is remarkably close, but let's not confuse what someone presents as a formal scientific study and what someone said on their FAQ.


#7    Emma_Acid

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 03:25 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 29 February 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

It dosnt matter what anyone finds or dosnt find my friend. The fact is that no matter how real or not real any of it is, people will continue to only accept explanations within their world view based on their own axioms.

Again, this simply isn't true. Science doesn't go by what people want to be true or not. If something is real, and there is evidence for it, and experimentation supports this, and predictions can be made and theories formed, then it will become at accepted part of science.

Many prominent physicists at the beginning of the 20th century didn't want quantum physics to be real, as it was so completely unintuitive and so different to what was the accepted view of reality at the time.

And yet the predictions and experiments bore out the observations, and quantum physics has become the most accurate area of any science in terms of measurement, prediction and experiment.

This has never happened in the case of "psi". There is simply no evidence to build on.

View PostSeeker79, on 29 February 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

No matter how well the science is done Somone is always going to come up with a creative rebuttal...

We've established before - and you're proving again - that you don't know how science works. Observation, measurement, prediction, theory. That is how it works, and if a phenomena exists, and you can measure it, then you can build a theory around it, and anyone who doesn't like it can make as many "creative rebuttals" as they want and it doesn't matter - if the science is strong enough it won't go away - it will become established and accepted.

This hasn't happened with "psi" because there is no evidence to measure.

View PostSeeker79, on 29 February 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

And materialist will jump on it as valed.

I'm getting really bored of this "materialist" argument, saying that there are "materialist scientists" who refuse to look at the evidence for psi. There is no such thing as a "materialist scientist". You're either a scientist or not a scientist.

A proper scientist won't take here-say, anecdotes or youtube videos as evidence.  When people argue against "material science", they're essentially just upset that there simply isn't evidence for things they want to be true, so have to turn to pseudo-science.

View PostSeeker79, on 29 February 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

I can give a wonderful creative explanation of why the sun actually rotates around the earth and if somone already believed it then it's truth. Of coure it cuts both ways. Those with command of rederik and charisma win the day.

Again. Science simply does not work that way. At all.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#8    White Crane Feather

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 29 February 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Again. Science simply does not work that way. At all.
it's not supposed to work that way is a more acurate statement. The nominal is quite different than the real. The proof is in your statement.

Edited by Seeker79, 29 February 2012 - 04:38 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#9    Emma_Acid

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:05 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 29 February 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

it's not supposed to work that way is a more acurate statement. The nominal is quite different than the real. The proof is in your statement.

No, it doesn't. Simply making up an explanation and having someone believe it is not science. Things become accepted in science because they have evidence, they can be used to make predictions, they are falsifiable, and are enforced by experimental data - and crucially this can be repeated by anyone with the right equipment.

You are making up your own definition of science and then saying "this is what science is and why I don't trust it".

Edited by Emma_Acid, 29 February 2012 - 05:09 PM.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#10    White Crane Feather

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 29 February 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

No, it doesn't. Simply making up an explanation and having someone believe it is not science. Things become accepted in science because they have evidence, they can be used to make predictions, they are falsifiable, and are enforced by experimental data - and crucially this can be repeated by anyone with the right equipment.

You are making up your own definition of science and then saying "this is what science is and why I don't trust it".
You still fail to see the bigger picture... It's not science that is the problem it's the people that apply it. It's precisely why science is as stringent as it is. Unfortunately people can be very subversive. It's a plesent fiction that Memes, dogmas, and bias do not develop amoung scientific institutions. You said it yourself. Proponents of quantum physics had to fight through all of this to get their theories recognized as valed. It's a shame that that lesson was not really learned.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#11    Emma_Acid

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:10 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 29 February 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

You still fail to see the bigger picture... It's not science that is the problem it's the people that apply it. It's precisely why science is as stringent as it is. Unfortunately people can be very subversive. It's a plesent fiction that Memes, dogmas, and bias do not develop amoung scientific institutions. You said it yourself. Proponents of quantum physics had to fight through all of this to get their theories recognized as valed. It's a shame that that lesson was not really learned.

I'm afraid it is very much you who doesn't see it!

There is a reason why you have to battle to get new ideas accepted, why theories and hypotheses are torn apart to look for weaknesses, and why they're still torn apart, questioned, probed and doubted even after being generally accepted.

It's because that is science's main strength. It is constantly checking itself, constantly testing what is accepted as real.

The idea of "psi" is arguably as controversial as the idea of quantum physics was a hundred years ago. But the evidence was there, from many many different sources, experiments were done that agreed with observation, and very slowly - the way that science always works - the theory was built up, through constant testing and refinement.

There should be no special pleading. Every area of science has had to go through the same process, why should "psi" be treated any differently?

That is where this "materialist scientist" argument comes from. From people who believe in something that there simply is no evidence for, and has no grounding experimentally. So they invent different types of science, to try and convince themselves that normal, rational, "materialist" science is doing it wrong, a reason for why it is turning up no evidence for something they want to be true.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#12    karmakazi

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:43 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 29 February 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Things become accepted in science because they have evidence, they can be used to make predictions, they are falsifiable, and are enforced by experimental data - and crucially this can be repeated by anyone with the right equipment.

And therein lies the problem.

How many people can afford or have access to equipment that can test whether photons really exhibit wave-particle duality?  How many people get to actually see the structure of DNA for themselves?  How many people can be there when the LHC is in operation and see the results for themselves?

The rest of us who do not have direct access to such equipment in order to test theories for ourselves are left with two choices.  We can either believe what is claimed as evidence by such testing or we can consider that those results are being relayed to us by human beings.  Human beings, a species whose members have proven time and time again to be after their own individual agendas whether those agendas drive them to be honest or dishonest.

I am no more likely to blindly believe what is published in scientific journals than what is written in the bible.  I understand that unless I see it for my own eyes, I can't know that something is true.  From my position of not having access to test or see them for myself, atoms, quarks and bosons are as unreal as ghosts or psi and without handing me the equipment to verify or disprove the existence of any of these things, you'll never prove or disprove to me that any of the above exists.

I'm not suggesting that all scientific findings are untrue, but that they are accepted by people as true without having performed the testing for themselves.


If psi is a real phenomenon, it is one that would by its own nature be difficult to test for.  Not only is it described as fleeting and difficult to repeat, but seems more likely to occur in non-clinical situations.  (being considered an underdeveloped human ability and possibly a phenomenon influenced by emotional states)  It would take a lot of work and money to develop a system to even establish that it is worth looking into.  Scientists won't put the time in because it appears to be an unfounded belief in something that does not exist.  How hard would it be to get a grant for such a thing? I'm not sure but I could imagine someone who writes for such a grant getting laughed right out of the scientific community.  Humans have egos and unless they lack rationality would not go after such a thing... and of course those that lack rationality ARE laughed at for being crazy enough to go after such fleeting concepts.  I think this is what Seeker means, that because it has been so elusive it seems unlikely to exist; so why would the time be put into it, when they can get a nice solid paycheck by researching and furthering studies on well known or strongly hypothesized phenomena.

I have never witnessed anything resembling psi phenomenon so I have no opinion about its existence or lack thereof, but I would be curious in testing to see if it is a genuine phenomenon.

Edited by karmakazi, 01 March 2012 - 02:48 PM.

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#13    Emma_Acid

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:48 PM

View Postkarmakazi, on 01 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

And therein lies the problem.

How many people can afford or have access to equipment that can test whether photons really exhibit wave-particle duality?  How many people get to actually see the structure of DNA for themselves?  How many people can be there when the LHC is in operation and see the results for themselves?

I am no more likely to blindly believe what is published in scientific journals than what is written in the bible.
I'm not suggesting that all scientific findings are untrue, but that they are accepted by people as true without having performed the testing for themselves.

To be blunt - this is a problem that lies with you, not with science.

Firstly, how many people have access to such equipment? Lots. There are such a vast amount of people working in an area like physics that if something wasn't true, we'd know about it. Unless you're suggesting that every single person who works in physics today is in on some form of conspiracy?

Science is not a fascistic monolithic institution. Dissent is scrutinised, not crushed. You cannot be seriously entertaining the idea that every single physicist it either lying or ignorant about wave-particle duality. There's are tens of thousands of people working in the field of particle physics. If it wasn't a true reflection of reality, this would simply not be possible.

How do we know that physicists aren't lying or deluded? Because we see evidence of it in every day technology. If quantum physics didn't work, neither would your computer. Or your strip lighting. Or your hospital equipment.

Name one piece of technology built on fringe or pseudo science that actually works?

(Clue: there isn't one)


View Postkarmakazi, on 01 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

If psi is a real phenomenon, it is one that would by its own nature be difficult to test for.

Nope, sorry, this is called special pleading, and is a logical fallacy. It isn't accepted as a valid argument. If something exists, science can measure it. We can accurately describe particles so small that we would never be able to actually know they existed, and yet much of today's technology relies on what we know about the electron.

Saying "science can't measure this", is a cop out. Pure and simple.


View Postkarmakazi, on 01 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Scientists won't put the time in because it appears to be an unfounded belief in something that does not exist.

That's not true at all. Science is about learning the mysteries of the universe. Nothing would change the world more than discovering something like psi actually exists.

The problem is, at a very very basic level - and I can't stress this enough - there is no evidence for psi - there is nothing to investigate.


View Postkarmakazi, on 01 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I think this is what Seeker means, that because it has been so elusive it seems unlikely to exist; so why would the time be put into it, when they can get a nice solid paycheck by researching and furthering studies on well known or strongly hypothesized phenomena.

You really, really need to put some time in learning about how science as an industry works.

Edited by Emma_Acid, 01 March 2012 - 05:35 PM.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#14    White Crane Feather

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 01 March 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I'm afraid it is very much you who doesn't see it!

There is a reason why you have to battle to get new ideas accepted, why theories and hypotheses are torn apart to look for weaknesses, and why they're still torn apart, questioned, probed and doubted even after being generally accepted.

It's because that is science's main strength. It is constantly checking itself, constantly testing what is accepted as real.

The idea of "psi" is arguably as controversial as the idea of quantum physics was a hundred years ago. But the evidence was there, from many many different sources, experiments were done that agreed with observation, and very slowly - the way that science always works - the theory was built up, through constant testing and refinement.

There should be no special pleading. Every area of science has had to go through the same process, why should "psi" be treated any differently?

That is where this "materialist scientist" argument comes from. From people who believe in something that there simply is no evidence for, and has no grounding experimentally. So they invent different types of science, to try and convince themselves that normal, rational, "materialist" science is doing it wrong, a reason for why it is turning up no evidence for something they want to be true.
Certainly that effort will never be put in will it? Once someone has placed their faith in a particular axiom ( I think that's the right word... Maby paradime would be better) , reguardless  ... There is no point in persuing evidence of another unless it fits within that paradime. The realm of spirituality is immaterial and personal. Scientific thought focuses on the material and objective. that dosnt mean it can't be detected. There are surely things that cross over, but quantifying  highly personal experiences is nearly impossible, and as a rule are thrown out or placed into the materialistic axiom, where it might not belong.

A good Example are NDEs. We know that they happen, we can come up with a fairly acurate statistic of how many people in those circumstances will rememder the  experience, Many doctors ( scientists) have validated that people are observing things they shouldn't. It will repeat over and over again. ( it's just not that easy to reproduce).

Then I read the accepted "scientific" rebuttles of NDEs, that amount to wild speculation. My favorite being  a race memory from being born with the birth canal being the tunnel and the doctors light being the bright light. Funny.

It's clear.... So clear... that if Something dosnt fit into the materialist paradime then it cannot be taken serious by a materialist. And those rare few that are willing to investigate and drop their bias must then also be the rare few who can endure ridicule, rich because they won't have a job or a real career, and diligent enough to swim against the stream.

Even if methodology is presteine it will always be labeled psudoscience. No matter how acurate the data, no matter what the integrity of the scientist, no matter how many repeatable trials.

Materialism as a meam just like religion has built in mechanisms to defend itself from threats. Most Christians will tell you their view is right because the bible says so, and the bible is the direct communication of the creator himself that says anything you gear different is wrong so don't even listen. Materialists will tell you that they are right because materialistic methods have not discovered anything that is not material so anything someone says or discovers to the contrary is wrong so don't listen. You can see the white blood cells of materialism hard at work on these forums daily. They will even take the time to debunk a 14 year old claiming to have the power to kill things and resurrect them. And they are very seriouse.

Fundamentalism is pretty easy to identify sophisticated or not,

Seeker out.

Edited by Seeker79, 01 March 2012 - 07:16 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#15    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

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  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:17 PM

"Saying "science can't measure this", is a cop out. Pure and simple"

There are strikingly similar statements in the bible. Fundis are fundies no matter where they reside.

My point made.

Edited by Seeker79, 01 March 2012 - 07:20 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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