Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

What created God?


  • Please log in to reply
172 replies to this topic

#1    Magicjax

Magicjax

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 556 posts
  • Joined:03 Jan 2009

Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:43 AM

I know this point is made in many discussions. But I wanted to start a subject on this concept itself. Not to be used to "Make a point" as the statement is usually used. But to actually ask how one who claims that "Everything needs a creator therefore there must be a god" argument. When someone makes this statement or argument I truly want to know how they answer the question that always fallows this statement which of course is:

"Ok, if everything needs a creator and that proves god exists. Then who created God?"

I just can't wrap my head around this line of thinking and would like anyone who really believes that because things exist it means "Someone" had to have created it. Then the never ending questions that fallow that line of thinking such as "If that's true then someone had to have created god, and someone had to have created the one that created god, etc...

I know some of you are going to jump on me because you'll say, "I'm just another atheist trying to make Christians look wrong". That's not actually what I'm doing here. I really want to know how this really works out in your way of thinking if you do feel this way. In my voyage to realizing I don't believe in god. This was one of the strongest thoughts that convinced me that I don't believe the creationist view. This "Everything has to have a creator" argument that leads to the infinite and unanswerable questions that fallow that statement is one of the things that really showed to me that something is illogical with this way of thinking.

Man in suit!

Posted Image

#2    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 26,926 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... Gorram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Make it so!

Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:25 AM

In our physical world, everything needs to come from something.  I didn't just pop here by magic.  I am the result of the DNA mix between my father and my mother.  And they exist because their parents share DNA, and their parents parents... and so it goes on, all the way back to single-celled organisms.  These organisms came to exist because the environment was right for it.  The environment also existed to bring this state about and goes all the way back to..... what?  What started the origin of our universe?  It is not an eternal universe, so how did it get here?  

Theists argue "God".  However, the next question - "ok, so what created God" is an irrelevant question.  The idea that something must come from something only applies to our physical world.  The supernatural world does not need to follow the same rule.  Therefore it need not be asked as to who or what created God.  If God were physical, it would be a logical question to ask, but if God is not physical, it is irrelevant.  A god who is outside of our physical world can easily be eternal, not having a creator.  

Know what I mean?

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#3    Sherapy

Sherapy

    Sheri loves Sean loves Sheri...

  • Member
  • 22,452 posts
  • Joined:14 Jun 2005
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:At the Beach-- San Pedro, California

  • Dysfunctional you can fix.

Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:39 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 February 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

In our physical world, everything needs to come from something.  I didn't just pop here by magic.  I am the result of the DNA mix between my father and my mother.  And they exist because their parents share DNA, and their parents parents... and so it goes on, all the way back to single-celled organisms.  These organisms came to exist because the environment was right for it.  The environment also existed to bring this state about and goes all the way back to..... what?  What started the origin of our universe?  It is not an eternal universe, so how did it get here?  

Theists argue "God".  However, the next question - "ok, so what created God" is an irrelevant question.  The idea that something must come from something only applies to our physical world.  The supernatural world does not need to follow the same rule.  Therefore it need not be asked as to who or what created God.  If God were physical, it would be a logical question to ask, but if God is not physical, it is irrelevant.  A god who is outside of our physical world can easily be eternal, not having a creator.  

Know what I mean?

Robbie,  Infinite regress is not irrelevant IMO  it is a major flaw in the Teleological argument.

It is circular logic. And an excellent question by MJax, and one I have no answer for. :blush:

Edited by Sherapy, 29 February 2012 - 04:40 AM.


#4    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 16,174 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:17 AM

In brief the answer is symmetry. Symmetry exerts a very strong force on the physical universe.

Nothingness is very symetrical.

Symmetries "are made to be broken" "Quantum chromodynamics tells us that nothingness is a "precarious state of affairs." Frank Wilczek, physicist  from MIT explains, "you can form a state that has no quarks and anti quarks in it, and its totally unstable. It spontaneously begins producing quark -anti quark pairs."
Thus, according to quantum theory, there is  no state of emptiness. So, according to Wilczeck, there is no fundamental barrier between nothingness and  a universe full of matter. "Perhaps the big bang was just nothingness doing what comes naturally."

The natural extension of this is that nothingness can't actually exist.
Think about this in religius terms, and you have the answer to the above question.

God spontaneously generated :innocent:

Edited by Mr Walker, 29 February 2012 - 07:46 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#5    Magicjax

Magicjax

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 556 posts
  • Joined:03 Jan 2009

Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:35 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 February 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

In brief the answer is symmetry. Symmetry exerts a very strong force on the physical universe.

Nothingness is very symetrical.

Symmeties "are made to be broken" Quantum chromodynamics tells us that nothingness is a "precarious state of affairs." Frank Wilczek, physicist  from MIT explains, 'you can form a statee that has no quarks and anti quarks in it, and its totally unstable. It spontaneously begins producing quark -anti quark pairs.
Thus according to quantum theory, there is  no state of emptiness. So, according to Wilczeck, there is no fundamanetl barrier between nothingness and  a universe full of matter. Perhaps the big bang was just nothingness doing what comes naturally."  The natural extensin of this is that nothingness cant actually exist.
Think about this in religius terms, and you have the answer to the above question.

God spontaneously generated :innocent:

All fine and dandy. But still, who created "the creator"? Going by the logic you expressed, god can't exist. Think about it. :)

Edited by Magicjax, 29 February 2012 - 07:38 AM.

Man in suit!

Posted Image

#6    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 26,926 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... Gorram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Make it so!

Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:59 AM

View PostSherapy, on 29 February 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Robbie,  Infinite regress is not irrelevant IMO  it is a major flaw in the Teleological argument.

It is circular logic. And an excellent question by MJax, and one I have no answer for. :blush:
Teleology has little to do with the discussion (nor does Infinite Regression, actually).  Science cannot measure the non-physical, so it is not unreasonable to suggest that the question about "who/what created God" becomes irrelevant when applied to a non-physical entity.

I know you were just stating your opinion.  As I am also stating my opinion.  And I think the concept of a non-physical creator sidesteps the entire need to ask a question as to what created the creator.  The physical world, a different story....

~ PA

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#7    eight bits

eight bits

    ...

  • Member
  • 6,672 posts
  • Joined:24 May 2007

Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:24 AM

Quote

  "I'm just another atheist trying to make Christians look wrong". That's not actually what I'm doing here. I really want to know how this really works out in your way of thinking if you do feel this way.
OK, fine, taking those statements at face value, you want to know what the position of some specific group of your opponents actually is.

Among Christians, and you did mention Christians specifically, there are two camps. There is the solely Bible-believing minority, a subsatntial and vocal minority, but a minority all the same, of which PA is a fine and able representative. Let him speak for them.

The vast majority of Christians, however, the Roman Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxies, the largest Protestant denomination, and some other Protestants as well, are not solely Bible-based. In the Anglican formula, the foundations of belief are Scripture, Reason and Tradition. The latter is the non-canonical literature, especially early material, read critically.

So, a living majoritarian Christian addresses your question informed by millennia of scholarship which, being unbiblical, you may not hear about from some minoritarians. The majoritarian claim is that God is the creator of all things in time and space, and of all things except himself outside of time and space. In short, God is the creator of all things other than himself. The formula is also sometimes rendered "... of all things which had a beginning." So,

Quote

This "Everything has to have a creator" argument that leads to the infinite and unanswerable questions that fallow that statement is one of the things that really showed to me that something is illogical with this way of thinking.
You find yourself in agreement with the overwhemling majority of living Christian churches. Only things that have a beginning can have a creator. Duh. That there is a category of "thing" which is beginningless is a much older idea than Christianity. If you felt like it, you could look into notions of the "ground of being," an impersonal conception of an eternality which underlies the temporal.

Much as the United States Constitution combines two distinct roles, head of state and head of government, into the single office of President, Abrahamic theology combines two extranatural roles, ground of being and actor upon the ground of being, into a single divine being.

I would also insert my usual caution here, that the purpose of the majoritarian Christian claim is not to explain the natural world, but to explain its Creator. Specifically, the questions addressed are the origins of "natural theology" (what can be inferred about God apart from revelation - the question that doesn't come up in findamentalist sola scriptura religion) and why natural beings like ourselves should ever attend to the supernatural at all.

The majority of Christians did not take Jesus' advice to enter the Kingdom of God as if they were a child. Or maybe, they just listened to real, living children's questions, like "If God made everything, then who made God?" And they have made grown-up answers. Often, that answer is to phrase the question more carefully.

That's good advice in other situations, too. Another bit of good advice is to understand that if you figured something out, then so have most of your opponents.

Posted Image

#8    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 16,174 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:28 AM

View PostMagicjax, on 29 February 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

All fine and dandy. But still, who created "the creator"? Going by the logic you expressed, god can't exist. Think about it. :)
Read the post carefully. According to the logic, (and the  theoretical science) outlined, 'god' must exist. And god's "prime cause" is self or spontaneous creation.

It is a/the state of nothingness which is logically and scientifically impossible to sustain.

In this scenario, "god" is a spontaneously generated/evolved sapient entity which evolved by natural causation from nothingness. No prior sapient or intelligent design is necessary. The theory explains why this is not only possible, but probably inevitable.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#9    woopypooky

woopypooky

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 252 posts
  • Joined:26 Apr 2007

Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:41 AM

nothing = something

to have something is to have nothing.

fat is thin

dark is light

truth is lies

understand this and half your problems are gone.

and dont worry about God.

Edited by woopypooky, 29 February 2012 - 11:43 AM.


#10    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 16,174 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:45 AM

View Postwoopypooky, on 29 February 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

nothing = something

to have something = to have nothing.

fat = thin

dark = light

truth = lies

understand this and half your problems are gone.

and dont worry about God.
Somehow, it seems to me that; if you  felt you could make sense of that, ALL your problems would be gone. :rofl:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#11    woopypooky

woopypooky

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 252 posts
  • Joined:26 Apr 2007

Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:01 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 February 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Somehow, it seems to me that; if you  felt you could make sense of that, ALL your problems would be gone. :rofl:
i could make sense of it,when i really sit down and think

but to keep making sense of it 24/7/365 is another matter.


#12    M.A.D CapeBretoner

M.A.D CapeBretoner

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,416 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2012

Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:07 PM

View PostMagicjax, on 29 February 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

I know this point is made in many discussions. But I wanted to start a subject on this concept itself. Not to be used to "Make a point" as the statement is usually used. But to actually ask how one who claims that "Everything needs a creator therefore there must be a god" argument. When someone makes this statement or argument I truly want to know how they answer the question that always fallows this statement which of course is:

"Ok, if everything needs a creator and that proves god exists. Then who created God?"

I just can't wrap my head around this line of thinking and would like anyone who really believes that because things exist it means "Someone" had to have created it. Then the never ending questions that fallow that line of thinking such as "If that's true then someone had to have created god, and someone had to have created the one that created god, etc...

I know some of you are going to jump on me because you'll say, "I'm just another atheist trying to make Christians look wrong". That's not actually what I'm doing here. I really want to know how this really works out in your way of thinking if you do feel this way. In my voyage to realizing I don't believe in god. This was one of the strongest thoughts that convinced me that I don't believe the creationist view. This "Everything has to have a creator" argument that leads to the infinite and unanswerable questions that fallow that statement is one of the things that really showed to me that something is illogical with this way of thinking.

How about find your true self and once there you would be in a better position to understand that which is God.


#13    M.A.D CapeBretoner

M.A.D CapeBretoner

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,416 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2012

Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:24 PM

To some what explaine what I've been saying here.

I've found something that Thomas had heard our Lord say in his witnessing, If those who lead you say ' God's Kingdom's in Heaven,' then the birds will fly there first. If they say 'It's in the sea,' the fish will swim there first. For God's Kingdom dwells in your heart and all around you; when you know your Self you too shall be known! You'll be aware that you're the sons and daughters of our living Father. But if you fail to know your own Self you're in hardship and are that hardship."


#14    M.A.D CapeBretoner

M.A.D CapeBretoner

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,416 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2012

Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:58 PM

And here is another which seem to me to be quwyte fitting His disciples asked, "On which day will you make yourself known to us?"
Lord Jesus replied, "When you rid yourselves of guilt and shame and tear off your old rags and trample them beneath your feet like children.
Then you'll see the Son of He who is the living God, and you'll never need fear again.
I'll end with this one which kinda drives the point home "He who understands all but lacks Self Knowledge lacks all.



May the Lord have peace in you.


#15    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 26,926 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... Gorram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Make it so!

Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:29 PM

View Posteight bits, on 29 February 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

OK, fine, taking those statements at face value, you want to know what the position of some specific group of your opponents actually is.

Among Christians, and you did mention Christians specifically, there are two camps. There is the solely Bible-believing minority, a subsatntial and vocal minority, but a minority all the same, of which PA is a fine and able representative. Let him speak for them.
G'day 8bits,

I must say I found this comment to be quite intriguing.  Simply because the answer I presented had nothing to do with the Bible, and could be applied to any form of eternal non-physical entity, not just the Bible-God.

However, I found the rest of your post quite interesting.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users