190 replies to this topic

[thedutchiedutch]

A NEW Zealand church has erected a billboard saying "Jesus heals cancer", after claiming six of its members had been cured.
The large black and red billboard was put up by the Equippers Church in the suburb of Tamatea, in Napier, and has six white lines on it representing each of those who have been healed.

Pastor Lyle Penisula of Equippers Church, which has about 150 members, told Campbell Live the sign was put up to offer hope to those who are suffering.

"We've seen Jesus heal people from sicknesses and we thought that since cancer is a big deal in our world today ... we wanted to broadcast the very fact that Jesus can heal cancer.

"A lady we have healed had breast cancer and another man who has thyroid cancer, he was healed and we've had a young boy who had leukaemia who was healed."

Mr Penisula said those who have been healed were still taking medication for their illnesses.

Link to Full Article and Source

Edited by thedutchiedutch, 29 February 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[Imaginarynumber1]

That's just dangerous.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Dangerous? There's a world I'd use, and I'm Catholic. That word starts with a "s" and a "t" and ends with a "d".

[Odin11]

thedutchiedutch, on 29 February 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Mr Penisula said those who have been healed were still taking medication for their illnesses.

Link to Full Article and Source

If they are healed why are they still taking medication? And if they're taking medication how do they know it was Jesus and not, you know, the  medication.

Even with them saying they are still taking their medication I predict a few deaths form this.

[Spectre1979]

damn, can't my country be on here for something else? lol

[I Am Not Resisting]

Imaginarynumber1, on 29 February 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

That's just dangerous.

I agree.  I feel like it's going to lead gullible people to forego medical advice or treatment in the belief that Jesus will cure them.  

[Rlyeh]

Odin11, on 29 February 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

If they are healed why are they still taking medication? And if they're taking medication how do they know it was Jesus and not, you know, the  medication.

Even with them saying they are still taking their medication I predict a few deaths form this.

Because they'd end up dead.
http://whatstheharm....amentalism.html

[Mr Walker]

Actually, it's not as ridiculous a statement as it sounds, although it should be labelled as a statement of belief. A number of cancers "self cure", and experts do not kow why. But belief and spiritual positions/attitudes DO make a diffence in many medical outcomes, and this has been statistically demonstrated in a number of modern studies. A spiritual belief can even, physically and significantly, reduce the level of pain a person feels/perceives.
And so, given the nature of cancer and the known ability of faith /belief, to heal, it is logical/conceivable that some cancers go into spontaneous remission as a result of belief. And also that the remission might not have occured without the belief  or faith.

Faith is a very real physical force and, like even placebo effcects, can produce very real outcomes
In my own world I had a very close friend who was dying of terminal cancer in very advanced stages He  had a strong personal relationship with god. One day he received a message from god, saying that  god would remove his cancer , that he would be healed, and  that he would live out a normal  life.

On receiving this message, he went off to the specialists, and tests revealed the; large, advanced, malignant, and deadly cancer was gone. Not reduced, not  growing more slowly, but gone as if it never existed.

His doctors said he was one lucky fellow,  and that this occured in a tiny percentage of known cases. He didn't tell them that he had already been informed by god of what had happened.  He just smiled and agreed with them. Nearly 30 years later he is in his mid sixties and as fit, "as a mallee bull." He never had any cancer return over those years.

Was this god's work? There is room for an athiest to doubt, but for others it is confirmation of the power and efficacy of god (or faith) in   a person's life.

The interesting thing here, for me, is as in many of my own experiences, god informed him of what he was about to do, before doing it, and what god told him would happen came true after god had informed him of his intentions. Still room for doubters but very very interesting especially when this scenario is repeated with many other people and thats only thiose i persoanlly know.

Ps of course he continued taking medications. His doctors told him to,  and only an idiot would not. But he never believed he needed them. Once he could prudently stop he did so. The cancer never returned or manifested in any other form.

Ps not only does faith abolutely heal, it alos protects and acts as a preveantive.. Along with certain lifestlyes, belief/faith creates positive statisical anomalies in people's health and mortality. ie people live longer  and healthier lives if those lives include a spiritual belief system and an element of faith.

It is one of many physical and  practical benefits of living a life of spiritual belief and faith.

Edited by Mr Walker, 29 February 2012 - 06:58 AM.

[psyche101]

I Am Not Resisting, on 29 February 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

I agree.  I feel like it's going to lead gullible people to forego medical advice or treatment in the belief that Jesus will cure them.  

People already do that all the time for the sake of naturopath remedies. Religion is already keeping people from Doctors, I have heard more than one story of children dying because of parents religious beliefs.

[Odin11]

Rlyeh, on 29 February 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Because they'd end up dead.
http://whatstheharm....amentalism.html

I know, I was just trying to point out their hypocrisy.

I've known about that site for awhile and even though it's all anecdotes it's still a good site.

[Odin11]

Mr Walker, on 29 February 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

Actually, it's not as ridiculous a statement as it sounds, although it should be labelled as a statement of belief. A number of cancers "self cure", and experts do not kow why. But belief and spiritual positions/attitudes DO make a diffence in many medical outcomes, and this has been statistically demonstrated in a number of modern studies. A spiritual belief can even, physically and significantly, reduce the level of pain a person feels/perceives.
And so, given the nature of cancer and the known ability of faith /belief, to heal, it is logical/conceivable that some cancers go into spontaneous remission as a result of belief. And also that the remission might not have occured without the belief  or faith.

Faith is a very real physical force and, like even placebo effcects, can produce very real outcomes
In my own world I had a very close friend who was dying of terminal cancer in very advanced stages He  had a strong personal relationship with god. One day he received a message from god, saying that  god would remove his cancer , that he would be healed, and  that he would live out a normal  life.

On receiving this message, he went off to the specialists, and tests revealed the; large, advanced, malignant, and deadly cancer was gone. Not reduced, not  growing more slowly, but gone as if it never existed.

His doctors said he was one lucky fellow,  and that this occured in a tiny percentage of known cases. He didn't tell them that he had already been informed by god of what had happened.  He just smiled and agreed with them. Nearly 30 years later he is in his mid sixties and as fit, "as a mallee bull." He never had any cancer return over those years.

Was this god's work? There is room for an athiest to doubt, but for others it is confirmation of the power and efficacy of god (or faith) in   a person's life.

The interesting thing here, for me, is as in many of my own experiences, god informed him of what he was about to do, before doing it, and what god told him would happen came true after god had informed him of his intentions. Still room for doubters but very very interesting especially when this scenario is repeated with many other people and thats only thiose i persoanlly know.

Ps of course he continued taking medications. His doctors told him to,  and only an idiot would not. But he never believed he needed them. Once he could prudently stop he did so. The cancer never returned or manifested in any other form.

Ps not only does faith abolutely heal, it alos protects and acts as a preveantive.. Along with certain lifestlyes, belief/faith creates positive statisical anomalies in people's health and mortality. ie people live longer  and healthier lives if those lives include a spiritual belief system and an element of faith.

It is one of many physical and  practical benefits of living a life of spiritual belief and faith.

Since you’re so fond of anecdotal evidence you should read the link that Rlyeh posted.
here it is again: What's the Harm?

[Mr Walker]

Odin11, on 29 February 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Since you’re so fond of anecdotal evidence you should read the link that Rlyeh posted.
here it is again: What's the Harm?

This is NOT "anecdotal." I was "there" when this happened. Plus the link between physical outcomes and belief /faith is well established scientifically, and is being increasngly documented and accepted in all areas of mainstrem science.

And i dont claim it is god (although it might be ) It is a link or mechanism which works, but which science can not yet fully explain the mechanism(s) for.
I am not suggesting it be thought of as a replacement for modern medical science, but it is proven scientifically to be an efficacious supplementary form of healing. To argue otherwise is to allow disbelief, and foolish denial, to overule modern scientific and medical knowledge.
For everyone of the documented cases of undiluted fundamentalist belief causing harm, there will be another where  people benefitted fro faith and belief either through physicla cures psychological relief or a generla imporvement in both physicla and psychological conditions. And the general benefits of belief and religion on human health run into the millions, if not billions. This is also proven statistically, and actuarilly, by modern studies around the world.

Edited by Mr Walker, 29 February 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[aquatus1]

thedutchiedutch, on 29 February 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

"We've seen Jesus heal people from sicknesses and we thought that since cancer is a big deal in our world today ... we wanted to broadcast the very fact that Jesus can heal cancer.

Neat!

So, who caused it in the first place?

[libstaK]

I Am Not Resisting, on 29 February 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

I agree.  I feel like it's going to lead gullible people to forego medical advice or treatment in the belief that Jesus will cure them.  

psyche101, on 29 February 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

People already do that all the time for the sake of naturopath remedies. Religion is already keeping people from Doctors, I have heard more than one story of children dying because of parents religious beliefs.

To be fair they do state that all these people were in no way advised to stop taking their medications or treatments - which is the absolute correct position to take given their faith predicates that miracles can occur, no point arguing against that possibility - it is a tenet of faith for them.

If it is an act of God, it will work just fine with whatever medications/treatments are taking place - if it is not, then the only harm done is dissappointment which is usually accepted by the faithful as a sign that it is just their time aka: "it's in God's hands" as far as they are concerned.

The negative aspect - the glass half empty type mentality can do the opposite and make a person quite sick and overcome by their predicament.

The power of positive thinking can affect us physically - I do believe that, it is a positive position for those of the secular or non spiritual mindset also IMO - believing in your capacity to overcome adversity does not have to be attached to faith or belief in God/s.  

I also believe that there are going to be those whose capacity to practice authentic spiritual faith is going to be strong enough to assist in the management and recovery from diseases/physical impairments.   Whether it is actually attributable to God, Jesus (name your deity) or a capacity of the mind to affect the functions of the physical body remains to be seen but you will find it is highly irrelevant to the practicer of the faith themselves - the results will suit their belief system just fine in their view.

What I do object to very strongly is those who claim to be faith healers and then claim that the patient must believe in them absolutely.  These types will demand that to believe "absolutely" the patient is required to "put their money where their mouth is" and give up all other treatment while accepting and believing that what the faith healer is stating is the truth instead - this is the human ego gone wild and anyone confronted with any variety of this at all needs to know they are being played by an aspect of the human personality that thinks far too much of itself, takes a ridiculous amount for granted in relation to their relationship with God and their knowledge of his "Will"- these types are just shy of sociopathic serial killers IMO because they will lay the blame for the death directly on the head of the patient and not themselves for leading the poor soul away from treatment that may well have worked and been the perfect means for "Gods Will" to enact itself in the first instance.

[Rlyeh]

libstaK, on 29 February 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

To be fair they do state that all these people were in no way advised to stop taking their medications or treatments - which is the absolute correct position to take given their faith predicates that miracles can occur, no point arguing against that possibility - it is a tenet of faith for them.

They would've been just as correct as to say "Getting out of bed and brushing your hair cures cancer", while leaving out the real treatment.