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Church erects billboard saying


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#121    Alienated Being

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:38 PM

I think this thread is getting a little too personal. I think we need to steer away from personal matters.

Edited by Alienated Being, 06 March 2012 - 07:38 PM.


#122    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:01 PM

[quote]name='Alienated Being' timestamp='1331062133' post='4224181']
Knowledge holds no bearing in science, if it cannot be reinforced with evidence of said knowledge. [/quote] And hence a severe limitation in practical terms  (if i accept this fairly rigid definition of science). Things existed before science was ever conceived. Science is basically a method for both collating and extrapolating  knowledge  Perehas becaus eof this defintion science does not atempt the exploration of things which cant be proven (and yet it does as long as there is no prejudice attached to them) Most things start of without proof and science gradually establishes evidences for them.

[quote]Physics is devoted to energy, matter, and essentially how we are... who we are (physically). It describes how we got here.[/quote]

Yes and thus it is applicable to all real physical things. If god is a real physical entity, then god is  subject to the laws of physics and quantifiable using them (as long as our physics is good/advanced enough)


[quote]I have an example question...

A woman, 45, sees Big Ben as a large, steaming pile of faeces (and can even smell it). When she touches the exterior, it feels like touching actual faeces. She has, therefore, concluded that, because she has experienced it, it must be true. On top of that, her ENTIRE family and ALL of her friends perceive it as being the same thing, and it shares completely identical qualities to what I have just described.

Are they delusional, or is it really a steaming pile of faeces? No matter how much scientific evidence you present to them to sway their belief, they will refuse, and say it is still a steaming pile of faeces.

Who is wrong?? The scientist, or the people who are experiencing it?

It's an honest question. I am waiting to read your response. [/quote]

There are many potential answers to that, depending on whether you apply philosophy or physics for example. My favourite one might be this.

In the scenario given, big ben  has obviously begun operating at a quantum level. It is thus subject to the observer effect. In other words, it is either or (or both) a pile of steaming faeses and  a solid human built  object used to keep time. depending on how it is observed and by whom.
Other means of rsoning include utilising historical knowledge of its constructin and history.  But if indeed a million people saw it as a steaming pile of faeces, then science would have its work cut out explaining why, and who was right or wrong.

[quote]Don't feel sorry for me, because I wouldn't feel sorry for you.[/quote] I am responsible for my emotional rsponses and you for yours. :innocent:

[quote]If it comforts you, fine... believe in it. It just bothers me that you'd invest belief in such illogicality.[/quote]


Religious belief doesnt comfort me. I dont have any.  idont believ in an afterlife or any of the constructed metaphysical concepts of god. I do have a physical connection to a physical god which gives me many physical advantages but my  basic human strengtht of mind and body is my own. However I see in others how belief alone confers some of the same advantages which a physical connection to god confers courage strength peace  joy etc. It does not necessarily confer the physical protection and guidance/mentoring of god which physicla conection with him confers. They are added bonuses.

[quote]A lot of humans, not most. That is quite the stretch.[/quote]

Actually every piece of gathered evidence still says most. ie greater than 50%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

Edited by Mr Walker, 06 March 2012 - 08:10 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#123    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:03 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 March 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:


Personally I use a learned detachment, logic and understanding to overcme grief (as I do with anger hate lust envy etc) I find these, especially when uncontrolled to be deatructive/nonproductive emotions .This is not religious practice but things i developed as a secular humanist or atheist to cope withlife.
I know that we all have a choice in how we respond emotionally, and i know that humans are conditioned into, or learn, 'appropriate" cultural responses to things like grief. History and observation of differnt people and cultures today  demonstrates this.
But i have friends who had only one child, a boy, born with catastrophic brain damage. He is now nearly 40, and cant walk or talk or feed himself. They are intelligent and practical people. One is an accountant the other a graphic artist,  but they freely admit that, without gods help, they could not have coped with, or dealt with, that circumstance in their life anywhere near as well.

It was their faith in god that sustained them through both his early years and for the last 4 decades. They  love him and provide wonderful care for him, although his condition is so bad that the actual care is done by professionals in an institution. They bring him home for a few weeks each year and visit him regulalrly.
They believe that they will eventually be reunited with him, well and healthy, for eternity. Even if i dont share that belief, i can see the value in it.


Like I said...The OP_    Church Billboard Jesus cures cancer.. That is intensive to post up.. because  many Christians  have  been  very close to God  and still suffered from Cancer  or lost loved ones who did.... People duffer.. Jesus  is said to have suffered for the world... It happens

I think it is presumptuous  for anyone to assume  only  God has picked over who he wants to save ...   I believe  in the natural order of life...  Good and bad can happen and will happen to us all........

I believe  in faith working with  medical help....... The OP mentioned they still have to take their treatments.. So  the billboard is a lie... a con and no wonder people got upset

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#124    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:17 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 March 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Like I said...The OP_    Church Billboard Jesus cures cancer.. That is intensive to post up.. because  many Christians  have  been  very close to God  and still suffered from Cancer  or lost loved ones who did.... People duffer.. Jesus  is said to have suffered for the world... It happens

I think it is presumptuous  for anyone to assume  only  God has picked over who he wants to save ...   I believe  in the natural order of life...  Good and bad can happen and will happen to us all........

I believe  in faith working with  medical help....... The OP mentioned they still have to take their treatments.. So  the billboard is a lie... a con and no wonder people got upset
I believe from the evidences available to me that 'god" and just "belief" can cure a lot of things including pain and cancer. So, to me, the bill board  tells a truth. Not the whole truth perhaps but basically a truth. There are many unexplained reasons why, and cases where, cancer goes into remission or disappears in some people. God and faith are as good a rationale as any, especially where there are also some statistical and anecdotal evidences to support this concept.

Edited by Mr Walker, 06 March 2012 - 08:18 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#125    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:25 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

I believe from the evidences available to me that 'god" and just "belief" can cure a lot of things including pain and cancer. So, to me, the bill board  tells a truth.

Not the truth.. It skipped the real truth and that is they still have to take their meds... IF  Jesus  actually cured their cancer.. Then no further cancer treatment and meds would be needed.. So the billboard was a complete lie   in that sense..


Quote

            God and faith are as good a rationale as any, especially where there are also some statistical and anecdotal evidences to support this concept.          



So many non religious and non believers  get saved  from Cancer  too...   I guess it means  you do not really need faith  to get help....

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 March 2012 - 08:26 PM.

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#126    shadowhive

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:29 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

I believe from the evidences available to me that 'god" and just "belief" can cure a lot of things including pain and cancer. So, to me, the bill board  tells a truth. Not the whole truth perhaps but basically a truth. There are many unexplained reasons why, and cases where, cancer goes into remission or disappears in some people. God and faith are as good a rationale as any, especially where there are also some statistical and anecdotal evidences to support this concept.

Awhile ago there was a programme on about faith healing. This is when people who claim to have the power to heal people con people out of money so they can heal people. When people didn't get better or died their answer was 'their faith wasn't strong enough'. Sound familiar?

Many people have died and been told that faith will heal them or help heal them. People have been told it will ease pain or suffering, but it doesn't. Everyone here can name people who they've known, who they're loved and cared for, that have suffered and died. Does faith help? It might, but only for a select few and it certainly doesn't work for everyone. What you're saying is again to those faith healers, that people suffer because their faith 'isn't stong enough' which isn't true.

People suffer and people feel pain and people die. That happens all the time and there's not just a switch we can flick to turn that off. I think sometimes you have a tendancy to not realise what you're saying can come off as insensitive.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
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#127    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

[quote]name='Beckys_Mom' timestamp='1331065550' post='4224246']
Not the truth.. It skipped the real truth and that is they still have to take their meds... IF  Jesus  actually cured their cancer.. Then no further cancer treatment and meds would be needed.. So the billboard was a complete lie   in that sense..[/quote] Any logical person, what ever the cause of remission, would continue to take their meds. Even if only for health insurance reasons in some places.  God doesnt expect us to abandon reason and rationality.

[quote]So many non religious and non believers  get saved  from Cancer  too...   I guess it means  you do not really need faith  to get help....[/b][/quote] Maybe, maybe not. Maybe all are helped by god, but only some recognise this, or maybe  some are helped by good fortune and pure chance.

But if god tells you he is about to remove your cancer and then does so, it is probable that there was some cause and effect.

And, anyway, its  primarily about belief  and the power of belief. Belief works both ways. It can cure cancer and many other human conditions, or it can attribute a cure to god.  It depends on how "you" see the world and "your" relationship with god.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#128    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:45 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 March 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Any logical person, what ever the cause of remission, would continue to take their meds.

Any logical person who knows what a miracle actually is.. and knows that even in the bible when Jesus us  said to have cured others.. they didn't need to keep up treatments  ..> Then  Any logical  person will know that if a Church sticks up  plain and simple -->   JESUS CURES CANCER...   Then  obviously  it coming from Jesus  will be a miracle and not still require meds... FACT  

Only those in biased denial  and cannot comprehend that fact  will  ignore it  Just to promote a faith.. It is a sad and illogical attempt and a lie

IF It read   Jesus will help you with faith  and medical help.. then  that might fly,   but it is still just a belief  and nothing more..  

Quote

      Maybe, maybe not. Maybe all are helped by god, but only some recognise this, or maybe some are helped by good fortune and pure chance.                

There is  no  maybe not about it...    It is just sheer ignorance to suggest  so.... If they are proven by fact to have  been aved   then  it is a fact and  it is tough on the  over the top religious that cannot take it.. .Fact   And it would be ignorant to assume  they never have been saved...  and  arrogant to boot

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#129    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:49 PM

[quote] name='shadowhive' timestamp='1331065769' post='4224251']
Awhile ago there was a programme on about faith healing. This is when people who claim to have the power to heal people con people out of money so they can heal people. When people didn't get better or died their answer was 'their faith wasn't strong enough'. Sound familiar?[/quote]
The programme sounds familiar. The fact tha tmoney was nvolved should have bee warning enough.

Faith can heal but it doesnot always do so. However faith can ALWAYS produce positive outcomes in people even those facing certain death and those going through great pain and loss. Thats an established psychological and medical fact.

[quote]
Many people have died and been told that faith will heal them or help heal them. People have been told it will ease pain or suffering, but it doesn't. Everyone here can name people who they've known, who they're loved and cared for, that have suffered and died. Does faith help? It might, but only for a select few and it certainly doesn't work for everyone. What you're saying is again to those faith healers, that people suffer because their faith 'isn't stong enough' which isn't true.[/quote]

FAith is a state of mind. If powerful enough it can and will influence the physical pain felt. It certainly will change the basic psychology and mental state of a person, and so indeed, enough faith will make you feel better.

Whether that is realistic or good is another matter in peoples' minds. Its not a religious principle but rather a psychological one, summed up in "mind over matter." Humans can chose how to respond to anything but usually respond as they have been conditioned to do .

[quote]People suffer and people feel pain and people die. That happens all the time and there's not just a switch we can flick to turn that off. I think sometimes you have a tendancy to not realise what you're saying can come off as insensitive.[/quote] Actually there is such a switch. It exists in the rational control part of the human brain when the brain matures and is why we can control all our emtoional responses. I and other australian teachers teach the use of this switcht to children. Its about recognising and controlling emotional states. We use it to preent anger, bullying, abuse etc., but it can be applied to all. No human needs to feel helpless inthe face of their emotions

Yes to some I might appear insensitive i am just honest and realistic. I do not like to see anyone suffer unneccessarily, and i can guarnatee they do not have to.

Again this is not religious, but medical science. However religion offers an easy and effective way of gaining the same result without years of learning training and discipline.
I, like spock, find uncontrolled human emotions to be the greatest threat to individuals and our species.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#130    shadowhive

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:37 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 March 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

The programme sounds familiar. The fact tha tmoney was nvolved should have bee warning enough.

Faith can heal but it doesnot always do so. However faith can ALWAYS produce positive outcomes in people even those facing certain death and those going through great pain and loss. Thats an established psychological and medical fact.

I dunno if it was shown outside of the uk, but similar things have been done so... Yeah money should bhave been, but people will do anything to save their loved ones, which can lead to such things being taken seriously.

It depends how you define 'positive outcomes' doesn't it? It can make people feel more positive, but does it make any difference to their condition? Well there's a problem there, because mst illnesses have a certain pecentage of people urviving them anyway. So if someone is among that lucky few that do survive and they had faith, their faith automatically becomes their reason for it. Not the  doctors, surgeons or medicines, but faith.

I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons that was on recently. A bear had wandered into town, the first and only one ever to do so, so the town overreacts: they set up this 'bear patrol' to keep bears out. They claim it was sucessful for no bears being in town... even though in all the years the town existed only one bear had ever entered it.

My point is that when faith is seen to help, it is automatically the only thing that did help, which isn't necessarily true: much like the bear patrol was given the credit for keeping away bears.

Quote

FAith is a state of mind. If powerful enough it can and will influence the physical pain felt. It certainly will change the basic psychology and mental state of a person, and so indeed, enough faith will make you feel better.

Whether that is realistic or good is another matter in peoples' minds. Its not a religious principle but rather a psychological one, summed up in "mind over matter." Humans can chose how to respond to anything but usually respond as they have been conditioned to do .

Perhaps, but I somehow doubt that it eliminates pain completely.

It depends completely on the ituation. People are individuals and you can't know how they will react to something. Most people have emotions and feelings about things and sometimes, no offense, you can come off as rather detatched, disspassionate and cold because you've decided that certain emotions are bad.

Quote

Actually there is such a switch. It exists in the rational control part of the human brain when the brain matures and is why we can control all our emtoional responses. I and other australian teachers teach the use of this switcht to children. Its about recognising and controlling emotional states. We use it to preent anger, bullying, abuse etc., but it can be applied to all. No human needs to feel helpless inthe face of their emotions

Yes to some I might appear insensitive i am just honest and realistic. I do not like to see anyone suffer unneccessarily, and i can guarnatee they do not have to.

Again this is not religious, but medical science. However religion offers an easy and effective way of gaining the same result without years of learning training and discipline.
I, like spock, find uncontrolled human emotions to be the greatest threat to individuals and our species.

Everyone can have a degree of self contol and must use to use it. Most people are capable of doing such a thing (after all we don't kill everyone that makes us mad or hurts us) but it's still an important thing to learn.

However when it comes to pain? I doubt there's such a switch. It's easy to say 'Oh I can't feel any pain' but I'm sure that you'd feel it at some point, regardless of your objections. Are you really saying you've never felt pain from a stubbed toe or when you've bashed into smething by mistake? Would you feel no pain if I (not that I would) shot or burned you? Like with self control a disiplined mind can diminish pain, but not remove it entirely.

Can religion do those things too? Maybe, but it shouldn't be marketed as the only way. After all, faith alone won't save you if you refuse necessary medical treatment. I think that's the obvious danger here, that faith can make people stupid and that should be avoided.

I also think there's another danger: that the faithful that believe such things can, intentionally or not, belittle the suffering and pain others go through and say things like 'oh you're suffering because you don't have enough faith'. It comes off as insensitive and also makes out like you think you're better than others because you don't 'feel pain'. Whic, in turn, futhers their pain and helps no one.

So can people be empowered, sure. Is labelling those that aren't as not 'faithful enough' the right thing to do? Not in a million years.

Do you feel happiness? Joy? Love? Cmpassion? Those things are all emotions too, ae you so quick to discard them too?

Edited by shadowhive, 06 March 2012 - 10:02 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#131    Mr Walker

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:39 PM

[quote] name='shadowhive' timestamp='1331069844' post='4224328']
I dunno if it was shown outside of the uk, but similar things have been done so... Yeah money should bhave been, but people will do anything to save their loved ones, which can lead to such things being taken seriously.

It depends how you define 'positive outcomes' doesn't it? It can make people feel more positive, but does it make any difference to their condition? Well there's a problem there, because mst illnesses have a certain pecentage of people urviving them anyway. So if someone is among that lucky few that do survive and they had faith, their faith automatically becomes their reason for it. Not the  doctors, surgeons or medicines, but faith.[/quote]


The most basic reality of life is that what counts is how we feel, and intellectualise, our existence,  NOT what that existence actually is. So it IS how we feel that is all important, not how we are. I could be locked up in prison for life, or dying of cancer, and be happy just by chosing to be, because  how we feel is how we chose to feel (unless we have an illness of the mind which programmes a chemical imbalance we can't overcome)
The true benefit of faith is not in keeping us alive, but how we feel about life, both withour hearts and with our minds. Those who die still benfit from faith while they are alive. And because i dont believe in an after life, i think that is the mot beneficial/realistic outcome of faith.

[quote]I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons that was on recently. A bear had wandered into town, the first and only one ever to do so, so the town overreacts: they set up this 'bear patrol' to keep bears out. They claim it was sucessful for no bears being in town... even though in all the years the town existed only one bear had ever entered it.

My point is that when faith is seen to help, it is automatically the only thing that did help, which isn't necessarily true: much like the bear patrol was given the credit for keeping away bears.[/quote]

Or the bear patrol actualy did keep the bears away. I mean, faith really does keep away fearss lonliness, stressors, suffering, grief etc


[quote]Perhaps, but I somehow doubt that it eliminates pain completely. [/quote] No. I haven't found so, But it is very effective. For example i have had a tooth decay and die off with the pain associated with that, and never had to take a panadol etc., the whole time, because i just "set aside' the pain in my mind and disassociated it from my mind.  That is not quite the same thing as faith. It is a learned mental discipline but faith has the same efect and the effect is measurable in scientific studies. I have had a person "lay hands" on me, and take away ALL pain from a torn shoulder ligament. one moment I was having red and black flashes and nearly passing out, the next i was without noticeable pain.

[quote]It depends completely on the ituation. People are individuals and you can't know how they will react to something. Most people have emotions and feelings about things and sometimes, no offense, you can come off as rather detatched, disspassionate and cold because you've decided that certain emotions are bad.[/quote] I think from science tha tbiologically all humans are pretty much the same I know tha twe learn emotionalresponses form a number of studies such as psychology and education. So I have no reaosn to think that other peole are not jus tlike me they can control physicl and emotional repsonses  quite effectively.

Yes I know how i come over :devil:  I learned how to control emotions  as a child for very good reasons. It has served me very well both nmy profession and in my life But i also live with a wife of similar temperamentt to whom logic and reason is far more important as a basis for action  than emotion. But i care so much that i could not function if i allowed my natural emotuons free control. I would kill a parent who abused their child I would kil a person who bullied or atacked meor one I loved Or i would give everthing I owned, away to someone who was starving; if i allowed my emotions to control me .It is because humans are creatures of emotional response that we must learn to control them.


[quote]Everyone can have a degree of self contol and must use to use it. Most people are capable of doing such a thing (after all we don't kill everyone that makes us mad or hurts us) but it's still an important thing to learn.[/quote] That is what I am saying.  And the more we live in a modern society, where we are not otherwise closely connected to those around us, the more critical this becomes.

[quote]However when it comes to pain? I doubt there's such a switch. It's easy to say 'Oh I can't feel any pain' but I'm sure that you'd feel it at some point, regardless of your objections. Are you really saying you've never felt pain from a stubbed toe or when you've bashed into smething by mistake? Would you feel no pain if I (not that I would) shot or burned you? Like with self control a disiplined mind can diminish pain, but not remove it entirely.[/quote]
I had my chest cut open, my heart taken out and 3 blocked arteries replaced.  My chest/ribcage was then stapled together with metal staples which remain there 8 years later For the first few days I was on oxycodeine/morphine based drugs  But i refused to take it because it was causing halucinations, and i like to be in control of my mind. So i turned to mental control and also the presence of god within me. i was able to reduce the pain to a point where i could manage with normal painkillers And, as above, i never have to take any painkilers for any pain less than something of that severity . I havent had  a pain killer in the 8 years since that operation  despite wha tshuld have been quite considerable pain  form various sources. Again, I dont think I am special. Anyone can do this..

[quote]Can religion do those things too? Maybe, but it shouldn't be marketed as the only way. After all, faith alone won't save you if you refuse necessary medical treatment. I think that's the obvious danger here, that faith can make people stupid and that should be avoided.[/quote] There is no cure for stupidity. The bill board didnt say "drugs dont cure cancer" they just said "jesus does"

I believe that to be true and have actually seen it hapen. But not just jesus. Any form of faith  whic is complete enough can heal an illness like cancer because of how it can transform our physical properties in the body.


[quote]I also think there's another danger: that the faithful that believe such things can, intentionally or not,[/quote]
That part of this sentence is true, and a good thing

[quote] belittle the suffering and pain others go through and say things like 'oh you're suffering because you don't have enough faith'.[/quote]
This is not.  Faith works in belief. A person with complete faith may die, but they will die happy.  A person with absolute faith may be cured psychosmatically, and physically, because of that belief, although this is not even common. But if the belief is not 'total' and absolute, then the body may not react to it.

So actually it is true  that peole suufer 9certainly) and ma ypossibly die because theor faith is not adequate Faith will remove sufferig (which is not pain or innate emotional reaction, but how we RESPOND to the pain and grief etc.0

Aboriginal people once "pointed the bone" at others, who then died from belief. But strangely so did some people who cliamed not to believe.  MAybe they had just enough belief to be efected by the psychology of the curse

[quote] It comes off as insensitive and also makes out like you think you're better than others because you don't 'feel pain'. Whic, in turn, futhers their pain and helps no one.[/quote] No one HAS to feel pain. If they want to fair enoguh but who would want to. How many people DO NOT take a painkiller when they are in pain?

Emotional pain is the same. One does not have to feel it unless one choses to. Now. there might be good reasons to feel a certain level of both physical andd emotional pain. But not debilitating, life wrecking, draining, hurting, suffering, pain that goes on for months and sometimes years..

[quote]So can people be empowered, sure. Is labelling those that aren't as not 'faithful enough' the right thing to do? Not in a million years.[/quote] Ok. Say they aren't self disciplined enough  Lots of things in life can be achieved but they dont come free Empowerment comes at a cost, whether that cost is; work, disipline, effort, etc or  just surrendering to the power of god via faith and allowing him to take away all pain and sufering and elace it with peace..
[quote]Do you feel happiness? Joy? Love? Cmpassion? Those things are all emotions too, ae you so quick to discard them too?[/quote]

You bet your sweet bippy, i feel them; and rather than discard them i use the same strategies to fill my life with all of those. God can do this also, but an atheist who works hard at it can live a life of joy, love, wonder, and compassion. They are free physical gifts from god, but without god one has to earn them through study, work, effort, discipline etc.

Youve probably never met such a happy joyful and compassionate (as in caring about people) person  as I am  :devil: My students keep asking me what drug I am on, I am so happy.  Like ths afternoon I made up rap tunes/lyrics for each student in my  English class and sung them to them. I say to them that  it is a drug freely available to all. The joy of life.

i LOVE life, people, work, the world, and myself.  
I wish everyone could be as happy and contented and interconnected with their world and the people around them as I am. But i cant force them to be. I can only tell them it is possible if they so desire.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#132    Arbenol

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:35 PM

To get back to the original issue - the church in question has obviously listened to those that were offended by it's billboard, and have removed the offending quote.

They've replaced it with:

"JESUS HEALS EVERY SICKNESS AND EVERY DISEASE"

There. That's much better!


#133    aquatus1

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:03 AM

Well...I suppose, yeah.  At least it is general enough to not be mistaken as a particularly strong claim of anything.


#134    spud the mackem

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:13 PM

View PostArbenol68, on 08 March 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

To get back to the original issue - the church in question has obviously listened to those that were offended by it's billboard, and have removed the offending quote.

They've replaced it with:

"JESUS HEALS EVERY SICKNESS AND EVERY DISEASE"

There. That's much better!
  So where is Jesus when He is wanted ?.I saw a small boy die of leukaemia in a  hospital,I think we all prayed for his survival including nurses doctors and family,but to no avail,yet my son who had the same thing in the next bed survived,Who or what decides who shall live and who shall die ?.I would put that down to Fate not Jesus,I guess that I am agnostic....Dont get me wrong Jesus was a good guy,but he lived 2000 years ago,and maybe He did heal people but He doesnt do that anymore as he is long gone,and if He ever did come back He would not like what he saw....

(1) try your best, ............if that dont work.
(2) try your second best, ........if that dont work
(3) give up you aint gonna win

#135    Meiliken

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:40 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 06 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

I doubt there's such a switch. It's easy to say 'Oh I can't feel any pain' but I'm sure that you'd feel it at some point, regardless of your objections. Are you really saying you've never felt pain from a stubbed toe or when you've bashed into smething by mistake? Would you feel no pain if I (not that I would) shot or burned you? Like with self control a disiplined mind can diminish pain, but not remove it entirely.

I have to respond to this, but not out of animosity.  There is indeed a switch in the brain.  It can be learned to switch it off, it is how monks do it to withstand pain like immolating themselves in fire.  With burn victims who have had such severe burns to where the nerves are burned and they end up being in pain for the rest of their lives, doctors will sever the pain receptor in their brain.  Otherwise the victim will scream for the rest of their lives in pain until they either go insane, or their brain turns off the receptor on its own.  This receptor is why drunks can take damage and not feel it, or people high on drugs.  Those kind of things dull the receptors in your brain.  All medical fact.

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself
Sir Richard Francis Burton

There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance
Hippocrates

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
David Hume

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
Aldous Huxley




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