190 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

Kryso, on 04 March 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Religion... I swear its caused more problems than solved.

If that were true, humanity would have rejected, or just given up on, religions, many millenia ago. Religions exist because they "work" for most people. They solve the problems of most people, and so they endure.

[Beckys_Mom]

Mr Walker, on 04 March 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

If that were true, humanity would have rejected, or just given up on, religions,

Many people have done and continue to do so...So I agree with  Kryso  and others like him...

[Mr Walker]

Beckys_Mom, on 04 March 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Many people have done and continue to do so...So I agree with  Kryso  and others like him...

World wide statistics show only about 5% of humans profess an atheistic 'belief" In most countries, specific religious adherence remains around 50%, while spiritual belief in one form or another, but without a specific religious commitment,  makes up  another 20 to 30 % Forms of agnosticism or uncertainty constitute the remaining percentage.


Yes, some humans have decided they dont need faith or spirituality, as some always have, but remarkably, in this century/millenia, a huge percentage retain their beliefs. That is because those beliefs "work" for them, and give them what they see as tangible benefits.
ps Ive taken you off ignore. If I upset you again please let me know, and I'll put you back as the only poster I've got on my ignore list

[Beckys_Mom]

Mr Walker, on 04 March 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

World wide statistics show only about 5% of humans profess an atheistic 'belief" In most countries, specific religious adherence remains around 50%, while spiritual belief in one form or another, but without a specific religious commitment,  makes up  another 20 to 30 % Forms of agnosticism or uncertainty constitute the remaining percentage.

Statics  statics  I pay no real attention to biased  made up statistics   ....   Listen...I have not seen  religion solves any world problems...  I have seen  religious help others yes.. But  in world problems as a whole, no...I have seen  religion cause more harm

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 04 March 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Leonardo]

Mr Walker, on 04 March 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

If that were true, humanity would have rejected, or just given up on, religions, many millenia ago. Religions exist because they "work" for most people. They solve the problems of most people, and so they endure.

Name one 'problem' that religion 'solves'?

Religion persists because it is a form of government and we being, naturally and by nuture, social animals but also individually selfish require a system of government to codify and manage our societies.

However, there are forms of secular government which work very well for this purpose - better, perhaps, than religion does. So, claiming religion 'solves this problem' is inaccurate. We would have (and do have) functioning societies without religion.

[Lilly]

Leonardo, on 04 March 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

I'd be curious to know of any 'problems' religion has solved?

I suppose if you were King looking to have absolute power over a nation stating that you were the chosen Earthly representative of God could help solve some problems.

Just to add, such would only help solve the King's problem...no one elses.

Edited by Lilly, 04 March 2012 - 05:45 PM.
addition

[Leonardo]

Lilly, on 04 March 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

I suppose if you were King looking to have absolute power over a nation stating that you were the chosen Earthly representative of God could help solve some problems.

Some rulers have held absolute power - and without having to invoke the "God clause" to do so. I cannot conceive of any 'problem' which is solvable only through religion. Sure, some people go to religion to "solve problems", but the mechanism by which the problem is solved is not the religion itself, but by some change in social, pyschological, physical or economic behaviour (or combination thereof). Therefore it is a fallacy to state "religion solves problems".

Edited by Leonardo, 04 March 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[Alienated Being]

Mr Walker, on 04 March 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

If that were true, humanity would have rejected, or just given up on, religions, many millenia ago. Religions exist because they "work" for most people. They solve the problems of most people, and so they endure.

Religion was created as an explanation for those who couldn't explain natural occurrences. One prime example is how comets were viewed in ancient times. In ancient times, comets were seen as omens of death, or an impending natural disaster. These concepts were created as a result of coincidental natural disasters, wars, or death which appeared to happen after a comet had passed; when in reality, those events would have occurred regardless of the comet's passing.

With regards to religion working for people... yes, so does atheism. In fact, when people get over the initial depressing stage of becoming an atheist, they begin to realize that life is actually worth more to them in comparison to when they were theistic.

On a side note, if it were not for religion, then the 9/11 attacks would have never happened. These attacks were initially fueled by anger and hatred of the US from the Middle East, but carried out as a result of religious beliefs (such as sacrificing yourself in "battle", so you will be blessed by Allah in heaven with 100 virgins).

I view religion as an abscess in society, which will become inevitably extinct at some point in the future (once people start to get a firm grasp on reality and true logic.

Edited by Alienated Being, 04 March 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[I Am Not Resisting]

Leonardo, on 04 March 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Some rulers have held absolute power - and without having to invoke the "God clause" to do so. I cannot conceive of any 'problem' which is solvable only through religion. Sure, some people go to religion to "solve problems", but the mechanism by which the problem is solved is not the religion itself, but by some change in social, pyschological, physical or economic behaviour (or combination thereof). Therefore it is a fallacy to state "religion solves problems".

The first thing that came to mind while reading your post was the creation of the Church of England.  From what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it was because the pope would not grant Henry VIII a divorce so he took it upon himself to come up with a way and thus the Church was formed.  At least that's one aspect I'm aware of, and it shows, to me, how religion seemed to have at least solved his problem.  However, you did mention a change in social behaviour.  To me it seems like religion was catalyst for that social change.  So I see the point you are making.

For the record, I feel that religion creates far more problems than it solves.  And as far as solving problems go, it only goes as far as a personal level.

[Mr Walker]

Leonardo, on 04 March 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Name one 'problem' that religion 'solves'?

Religion persists because it is a form of government and we being, naturally and by nuture, social animals but also individually selfish require a system of government to codify and manage our societies.

However, there are forms of secular government which work very well for this purpose - better, perhaps, than religion does. So, claiming religion 'solves this problem' is inaccurate. We would have (and do have) functioning societies without religion.

You can't really be serious. Religion is a codified form of individual belief and faith. Faith and belief, as well as attendance at religious  "events ' is proven to have many benefits. These range from extended lifespans and healthier life in later years, through to great psychological benefits gained fromm belonging to group. Religion/faith eases pain caused by loneliness, loss, grief, disconnection from place and space etc. Religion "centres" many lost and lonely, especailly the young. It goes as far as to give many people the only reason to live which they have. But faith belief and religion also empower even the powerful and strong. They make the strong stronger and more capableas wel as doing this for the weaker and more vulnerable. religion gives peole a sense of community In history, catholic religion prevented many many wars because it, for example, unified disparate societies in europe and other parts of the world.

And medical studies show that faith/ belief actually reduces the pain level felt/ perceived by human beings. The widest most general benefits are the psychological; the release from debilitating, injurious, and often life threatening; grief, pain and suffering, which is available to any person with faith.
No logical/rational person, knowing current facts about the benefits of faith, would chose not to believe (even if they saw no real god) because of the overwhelming advantages conferred on humans by belief. Its a win -win scenario.

[Mr Walker]

[quote] name='Alienated Being' timestamp='1330887523' post='4222404']
Religion was created as an explanation for those who couldn't explain natural occurrences. One prime example is how comets were viewed in ancient times. In ancient times, comets were seen as omens of death, or an impending natural disaster. These concepts were created as a result of coincidental natural disasters, wars, or death which appeared to happen after a comet had passed; when in reality, those events would have occurred regardless of the comet's passing.[/quote] That is one cause of religious beliefs. Another is people who encounter the supernatural and then talk about this to others. Another is  its creation in human minds as a formof thought process,  to help people meet presing human needs. Its like logic. We developed this to meet our needs . We developed religious responses to meet other forms of need like loss and loneliness.

[quote]
With regards to religion working for people... yes, so does atheism. In fact, when people get over the initial depressing stage of becoming an atheist, they begin to realize that life is actually worth more to them in comparison to when they were theistic.[/quote]

Yes atheism works. It worked for me. It does require chosing a certain nmindset and utilising that mindset to provide your own psychologicl aeeds But religion is a lot easier, simpler, and works more effectively .It is sort of a "set and forget" default system of thought. And atheism is not a viable operating sysetm once you encounter god.


[quote]On a side note, if it were not for religion, then the 9/11 attacks would have never happened. These attacks were initially fueled by anger and hatred of the US from the Middle East, but carried out as a result of religious beliefs (such as sacrificing yourself in "battle", so you will be blessed by Allah in heaven with 100 virgins).[/quote] That is probably rubbisn and, at best, conjecture. The divide between east and west; north and south, is a lot more about poverty, inequality, powerlessness, cultural domination  and lack of access to education, resources, and freedoms, than about religion.

We have had difering religions such as islam and christinity for all of human history. They dont cuase problems unless other forces also come into play. Islam amd christianity could easily and happily coexist if the countries of islam had the same privileges and advantages enjoyed by western christian countries.

[quote]I view religion as an abscess in society, which will become inevitably extinct at some point in the future (once people start to get a firm grasp on reality and true logic.[/quote]

I suspect you are doomed to a lifetime of disappointment. If anything, I have noticed countries like Australia becoming increasingly spiritual and religious, to the point where  between 25 and 30% of all children, including the brightest and most privileged, are now taught in church based, independnt schools.

As people experience the emptiness, disconection, and ultimate pointlessness of a material life, no matter how succesful, (suicide is the highest killer of australian men under 40 and of all australians under 30) they turn to an inner dimension of spirituality. As people, once in touch with their spiritual selves, they also turn to religions, where they can meet with like minded people and feel comfortable.

[Arbenol68]

Mr Walker, on 05 March 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

No logical/rational person, knowing current facts about the benefits of faith, would chose not to believe (even if they saw no real god) because of the overwhelming advantages conferred on humans by belief. Its a win -win scenario.

I think you miss the point. It's pretty unlikely that someone would choose to believe in a god because it's good for them. I can't talk for anyone else, but I couldn't believe if I tried - and believe me, I have.

Some of your other points are fair, but the positives you talk about are independent of faith. They have more to do with being an active member of a group of like-minded people, and the 'good feeling' that comes from belonging. Churches have historically provided that because they were always the centre of their communities.

Edited by Arbenol68, 05 March 2012 - 07:45 AM.

[Odin11]

Mr Walker, on 05 March 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

You can't really be serious. Religion is a codified form of individual belief and faith. Faith and belief, as well as attendance at religious  "events ' is proven to have many benefits. These range from extended lifespans and healthier life in later years, through to great psychological benefits gained fromm belonging to group. Religion/faith eases pain caused by loneliness, loss, grief, disconnection from place and space etc. Religion "centres" many lost and lonely, especailly the young. It goes as far as to give many people the only reason to live which they have. But faith belief and religion also empower even the powerful and strong. They make the strong stronger and more capableas wel as doing this for the weaker and more vulnerable. religion gives peole a sense of community In history, catholic religion prevented many many wars because it, for example, unified disparate societies in europe and other parts of the world.

And medical studies show that faith/ belief actually reduces the pain level felt/ perceived by human beings. The widest most general benefits are the psychological; the release from debilitating, injurious, and often life threatening; grief, pain and suffering, which is available to any person with faith. No logical/rational person, knowing current facts about the benefits of faith, would chose not to believe (even if they saw no real god) because of the overwhelming advantages conferred on humans by belief. Its a win -win scenario.

Every thing you wrote thats in italic can be said of alcohol.

Edited by Odin11, 05 March 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[Odin11]

Mr Walker, on 02 March 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

I wonder what percentage of those people actually have complete faith/ confidence/certainty, that their prayers will be answered, and how many are just hoping, or a just having an each way bet.
How many people are actually close enough to god, for god to reach over and touch them? And how many people are truly open to being touched by god, and everything that would entail in their life from that point forward?
Do they think god can just touch them /heal them, and they can continue on as before?
Mostly, healing by god requires a two way connection between god and the recipient. If that connection does not exist then healing and all other forms of connection such as empoerment the removal of pain fear anger lonliness grief etc., are made more difficult and less likely (but not impossible)

That you would write garbage like this, after what Beckys_Mom said about the things some people said to her about the lost of her child, is inhuman. It shows what kind of person you truly are.

It’s like my profile quote says:

I like your Christ.
I do not like your Christians.
They are so unlike your Christ -Gandhi-

Edited by Odin11, 05 March 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Odin11, on 05 March 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

That you would write garbage like this, after what Beckys_Mom said about the things some people said to her about the lost of her child, is inhuman. It shows what kind of person you truly are.

Oh  I am well used to that. and indeed  it is inhuman..  With peoples personal problems and suffering and so on trolls  usually love to do those sort of things to people  everywhere.....I personally couldn't do it or say it to anyone ..
  I may tell people I do not like religion  or I disagree with their faith..ect.. but I could never sink as low to go all out to hurt them  with a personal problem   just so I can make myself look good..  I would be delusional  if I did such a thing.. .. I may think I am looking good but  everyone else will see I look really bad..  ..I feel so sorry for people that like to do these things..

Odin11, on 05 March 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

I like your Christ.
I do not like your Christians.
They are so unlike your Christ -Gandhi-

A very WISE quote. .I have to agree with it 100%

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 05 March 2012 - 09:31 AM.