23 replies to this topic

[MichaelW]

ExpandMyMind, on 02 March 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

And they have also publicly stated that there would be elections in the future.

They haven't given a time frame nor an actual date of when these elections will be held. Saying you will have them and saying when they will take place are two different things, the latter has less leniency to make all sorts of claims because it will actually make Hamas hold elections. Saying you will just gives Hamas more time to consolidate power, although they seem to have consolidated enough.

And it isn't like there is any politicial opposition in the Gaza Strip is it?

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It's just a shame that the country would probably end up a lot worse off if we were to employ our version of 'humanitarian' intervention. Like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and to a lesser extent Yugoslavia. I completely disagree with our methods and our governments' true motives behind such actions.

At least Libya has organised dates for elections and Iraq has had elections. Also, the West's intervention in Yugoslavia was beneficial for the Bosnians at least because it did stop the Bosnian Serbs and Serb militia's from massacring more people.

[ExpandMyMind]

Well, Moon, I did research the civil war quite extensively (compared to most), and it is explicitly clear that Fatah did start that war, with backing, funding and arming from both the US and Israel (as well as and through Egypt). Fatah were rightly afraid of losing their corrupt monopoly, as were the hoer parties.

And to say that Hamas are armed to the teeth is still a serious over-statement.

[ExpandMyMind]

Michael, read the humN rights reports and other international voices. More were killed as a RESULT of that intervntion. The NATO attacks precipitated the mass killings and this has even been admitted afterwards (and that they had knowledge before hand) by western leaders.

And while under siege the Gaza Strip is in no fit state to even think of elections. Also, there is political opposition to Hamas - far, far more extreme than that organisation.

[MichaelW]

ExpandMyMind, on 03 March 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Michael, read the humN rights reports and other international voices. More were killed as a RESULT of that intervntion. The NATO attacks precipitated the mass killings and this has even been admitted afterwards (and that they had knowledge before hand) by western leaders.

Oh yeah, I forgot all those voices expressing support for the likes of Milosovic and his extremist cronies. Funny how I missed that. Look, people were being massacred in the region long before NATO turned up. If you want to go ahead and express support of a country which was ruled by someone who had no qalms about massacring civilians to get what he wanted, then fine. It wouldn't be the first time.

I know for a fact that when NATO turned up, it put the boot firmly on the Bosnian's foot to get rid of those who were committing said atrocities. That intervention ultimately brought about a peace settelement, which probably would have not occured had NATO simply let Milosovic's goons run around Bosnia shooting anyone that wasn't a Serb.  

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And while under siege the Gaza Strip is in no fit state to even think of elections. Also, there is political opposition to Hamas - far, far more extreme than that organisation.

Nice excuse. Hamas make all sorts of claims but don't really live up to them. They speak of peace yet fail to reign in the other various terrorist groups which call Gaza home. They speak of elections and yet none are held. God forbid if they gave up their political monopoly to someone else.

[Moon Monkey]

ExpandMyMind, on 03 March 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Well, Moon, I did research the civil war quite extensively (compared to most), and it is explicitly clear that Fatah did start that war, with backing, funding and arming from both the US and Israel (as well as and through Egypt). Fatah were rightly afraid of losing their corrupt monopoly, as were the hoer parties.

And to say that Hamas are armed to the teeth is still a serious over-statement.

Care to share your sources as I would be interested in both the civil war thing and where you are getting your info on Hamas current arms stocks.

Just to pre-empt you...I am basing my 'armed to the teeth' opinion on what they 'inherited' from the PA, what they have fired at Israel, what they parade in the streets, what they are believed to smuggle through tunnels, what has been intercepted and what they claim to have.

[ExpandMyMind]

Still hardly armed to the teeth.

And do a ME forum search for Hamas and Fatah together and you'll see my ample sources.

[Moon Monkey]

ExpandMyMind, on 03 March 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Still hardly armed to the teeth.

And do a ME forum search for Hamas and Fatah together and you'll see my ample sources.

I would have seen them at the time and must have been so unimpressed that I have forgotten all about them so don't think I will re-visit the old threads.

However I am still interested as to your sources that make you so sure they are not heavily armed, seems to go against general wisdom and you seem so convinced.....so they must be good  

[ExpandMyMind]

First, I find it hilarious that you haven't posted in the past 2 years. But I know you have been busy. We both know you have been busy... (for the record, I would LOVE you to go back to your old bullshiznit claims that you used to throw at me.... I've actually been drooling in anticipation of the prospect).

Second, here is the info about the Hamas/Fatah civil war: http://www.unexplain...1

Pretty obviously documented in the world and blatantly obvious to see that... well, I'm not going to bother going into anymore detail, as you aren't going to bother reading it anyway.

Third, why on earth would I supply evidence supporting my opinion that Hamas are not armed to the teeth (actually laughable - and I am right now) when YOU were the one who made the absurd claim? You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Seriously, what planet do you live on moonmo... oh, wait, doesn't matter...

Have a nice night.

[Moon Monkey]

ExpandMyMind, on 04 March 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

First, I find it hilarious that you haven't posted in the past 2 years. But I know you have been busy. We both know you have been busy... (for the record, I would LOVE you to go back to your old bullshiznit claims that you used to throw at me.... I've actually been drooling in anticipation of the prospect).

Second, here is the info about the Hamas/Fatah civil war: http://www.unexplain...1

Pretty obviously documented in the world and blatantly obvious to see that... well, I'm not going to bother going into anymore detail, as you aren't going to bother reading it anyway.

Third, why on earth would I supply evidence supporting my opinion that Hamas are not armed to the teeth (actually laughable - and I am right now) when YOU were the one who made the absurd claim? You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Seriously, what planet do you live on moonmo... oh, wait, doesn't matter...

Have a nice night.

Please don't pretend you know why I haven't been posting for a while because you don't but anyway why is it hilarious that I have been 'busy'? Now that I have a bit more time I would be happy to revisit anything I have posted as 'fact' with you....so you can stop drooling. It is a little amusing that you didn't just deal with my 'bull-shitznit' at the time, I wonder why that was.

I did have a quick look at the thread you linked, the old ISIS chestnut 'Hamas launched a pre-emptive coup' . Half the links within are dead and the other half don't support your position that Fatah, the US and Israel 'started' the civil war. But I do like the photo of the Hamas guy after capturing the preventative security headquarters, he looks really legitimate, it is almost as good as the one where they capture the Rafah border crossing. BTW are you just as supportive of pre-emptive military actions when they are not carried out by terrorist organisations?

Isn't giving evidence to back facts and the reasoning behind your opinions what we do on these boards ? I appreciate that as I don't have a fast track into the Hamas security organisation I cannot claim any facts but I gave a list of reasons why I believe what I do (although I forgot to mention the number of armed Hamas operatives within these organisations), whereas you poo-pooed this simply because....well I don't know why and seems never will.  I suppose it depends on your definition of armed to the teeth but....whatever.

Edited by Moon Monkey, 04 March 2012 - 07:50 AM.