71 replies to this topic

[lightly]

Druidus-Logos, on 11 March 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

I think you might be partially right.  They're related, I'm sure.  But all of the infinite universes out there have infinitely varied sets of beginning conditions.  

I think that in an infinity, sometimes you'd get a universe that simply couldn't develop mass, where all particles remained as energy rather than clumping into atoms.  You could conceivably have a universe with mass but no energy, if it remained extremely dense and small, but that universe is less likely to occur, IMO.

  If BigBang theory is to be believed,  Space/Time/Energy/Matter were ONE in a "singularity" ?   and  energy did emerge before cooling enough to form matter?  Which is another way of saying,  Matter/mass IS Energy?  
    Mass-less energy?  Energy-less mass!! ??  . . . i don't know.. i'm in over my head with this stuff.. it is fascinating though.  I'm still suspicious of Space/Time being a consequence of Energy/Mass... but they must be EQUALS.  ¿?

*

Edited by lightly, 11 March 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Alan McDougall]

Leonardo, on 10 March 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Time has multiple meanings.

In an objective sense, time is a perception of change. In a subjective sense, time is how that change is measured.

`I really like your explanation, however, time is more than that, it is not constant throughout the universe and varies in gravity fields and in speed

[shaddow134]

Does time ripple like in a pond when you throw in a stone( the big bang being the stone)and if it did what would happen when it reaches the edge of the Universe?Would time stop or would it bounce backwards?

[spud the mackem]

What happens when you pass the International Date Line in mid Pacific ?.I went to bed on Saturday night and woke up Monday morning !.Does that mean I have lost a day out of my life ?.The reverse happens the other way you go to bed Monday night and wake up Monday morning !.But you dont do the same things as you did the previous day...This has puzzled me for years,has any Time Genius got an answer ?,because at the moment,I have lost 3 days and gained only one....does that mean I am 2 days younger than I thought I was ?.Time travel is painless.

[BFB]

Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman - Does Time Really Exist?



Very interesting.

[Alan McDougall]

http://www.timephysi...-dimension.html



TIME IS NOT A DIMENSION

Time is related to the expansion of space. Slower time is associated withslower expansion and negative curvature in space in a higher dimension whichwas first described by Einstein. This extra dimension is not a time dimensionin which we can travel. Time is just the presence of motion and forces and iscaused by the expansion of space. When we discuss time we will come acrossterms like curvature in space in a higher dimension, expansion of space,slowing of time in gravity and slowing of time in motion. It is important tounderstand the connection of each one of these terms. Expansion of space is theprime mover behind all the action, it imparts time as the presence of motionand forces to matter in an area of space. Also slower expansion of space producesnegative curvature in space.

Although time is slower in negatively
curved space it is the slower expansion which is causing slower time and notthe negative curvature. Slower expansion is in turn due to presence of a mass.The gravitons radiate from a mass under the influence of expanding space.Gravitons are thought to be double spin particles that interact with space toslow the expansion. All these phenomenon expansion of space, curvature in spacegravity and time are interconnected. Prime mover however is the expansion ofthe space and the universe.

Edited by Alan McDougall, 16 March 2012 - 01:41 AM.

[PsiSeeker]

I don't think it's correct to say that time doesn't exist or that the future, past and present are all really one for us.  I will agree that the concept of how time is understood is wrong though.  Time flows in the direction of increasing entropy.  "Objective time" can't be subjectively confirmed.  Time as an experience only exists subjectively.  For humans, and other animals I'm sure, there is psychological time built out of our memories.  It is a recorder of the measurement of change that has occurred.

In regards to the beginning of a time.  (There are many times, 1 for each subject)  I believe some change will ALWAYS exist if there is a probability for that change in any infinite state.  When there is change then there is time.  

I think that the actual flow of time is subjectively universal.  I.e each subject experiences the exact same flow of time.  Objectively though there can be differences in transition which can only be seen when comparing different states.

The only subjective thing in the universe for which the past, present and future, as we experience it, is merged together is mass-less particles.  As soon as they experience 1 tick of the time we experience now the entire universe would have decayed.

[PsiSeeker]

shaddow134, on 15 March 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

Does time ripple like in a pond when you throw in a stone( the big bang being the stone)and if it did what would happen when it reaches the edge of the Universe?Would time stop or would it bounce backwards?

I don't think time has any buoyancy or that it is an entity onto itself.  It's only a result of there being matter.  Why do you think the universe has an edge?

spud the mackem, on 15 March 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

What happens when you pass the International Date Line in mid Pacific ?.I went to bed on Saturday night and woke up Monday morning !.Does that mean I have lost a day out of my life ?.The reverse happens the other way you go to bed Monday night and wake up Monday morning !.But you dont do the same things as you did the previous day...This has puzzled me for years,has any Time Genius got an answer ?,because at the moment,I have lost 3 days and gained only one....does that mean I am 2 days younger than I thought I was ?.Time travel is painless.

The international date line is there for us to have a 0 point from which to measure the time of day.  You haven't lost a day out of your life because when you were "born" those 2 extra days or whatever is already incorporated by the curvature of Earth.  I.e any place on the Earth that you end up would have been + - whatever time it was where you were born already.  When your physical self travels over the international date line so does your day of birth.

I.e I'm born at 10am.  Somewhere else in the world it's already 10pm.  When I travel to that 10pm I don't suddenly lose -10 hours.  It was already 10pm there when I was born.

We do experience very minor changes of time when we experience any velocity though.  You are extremely slightly younger after getting off an airplane because of it's velocity through space.

[PsiSeeker]

Druidus-Logos, on 10 March 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

We know how we perceive time.  We know how we measure it.  But what is it, exactly, that time is, in the grand scheme?  How does it fit in with other dimensions?  What is it, and answer without invoking things that are emergent from human cognitive functioning?

Time is not just a perception of evolution or a way to measure that evolution.  It is a fundamental part of reality that we simply lack the capability to fully perceive and understand.

To me, the question is not "What is time, to a human (or mammal, or any animal)?" but, rather, "What is time, to reality/the-universe?"  Without any observers at all, without any internal reference point (such as your brain, thinking right now) what is time?

It's the measurement of change in the direction of increasing entropy.

[Alan McDougall]

PsiSeeker, on 16 March 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

It's the measurement of change in the direction of increasing entropy.

I agree that time and entropy are linked if they were not the universe would be static. Do we ever reach a MOMENT IN TIME I wonder about this time flows like a river does it not??



Below is my personal idea about time, what do you think about this post?


EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE NOTHING IS ABSOLUTE


Nothing is as it seems to be and all things are subjective realities to the observer. Everything is relative to each person from the viewpoint of the only ultimate reality.

There is no absolute time, time moves differently from one object to the next and in one location to the next. For example, time moves slower on massive objects like the Sun or Jupiter and faster on smaller objects like our Earth. It moves even minutely faster in space. This is no longer a theory, but proven fact.

Extremely accurate precision atomic clocks on fast moving spacecraft have detected this strange phenomenon and proven Einstein’s theory of relativity to be true.

Stop all the clocks in the universe and movement will continue unaffected.

Stop all movement and the illusion we call time will stop and nothing ever happen again.

Time is elastic with in one moment in only one direction, namely into future moment. The twin paradox describes what happens. One twin boards a spacecraft traveling close to the speed of light, on a voyage for Alpha Centauri, some four light years from earth. Ten years he returns having aged only one year compared to his now twenty-year-older twin brother. An enigmatic paradox but absolutely true and real.

One exciting, but far distant use of this effect is the real possibility of reaching any moment in the future. Given enough speed, one could reach the Olympic Games of the year 2108, in a matter of a few subjective days. Backward times travel to the past, is a fantasy and if this were possible, a person could do the impossible and go back and murder their younger self. There is no universal now!  

Events are simply there, hanging in space-time. Time cannot exist without space and space cannot exist without time. We only conceive of time by the movement of an object through space, so space and time are different realities of the same thing and can only exist where movement is allowed.

For example, stop all movement in the universe and you have stopped time, have you not? Therefore, these three things are one "spacetimemovement" reality. There is simply no universal now and each moment is unique to the observer. Maybe there is an eternal observer  perceiving the whole reality of our universe, like unraveled frames of a movie story, depicting the life of the universe, from its birth until its demise like separate billions of moments, recorded on each frame of the film of existence.

Time is a measurement we have created to track how we move through space.

It should be obvious that something that is eternal cannot exist in three-dimensional reality. It must exist outside of what we call time and space in an “ever-changing moment”

By Alan McDougall 29/8/2007

Also

http://www.timephysi...es-inertia.html


Once an object is set in motion the expansion of space in front of the object
slows producing slowing of time. While behind the moving object the expansion of space increases producing a faster time.These are local affects which create a time differential between the front and behind the object. The time differential then perpetuates the motion. The space itself resists motion and then perpetuates motion. This is inertia.

Edited by Alan McDougall, 16 March 2012 - 04:50 AM.

[PsiSeeker]

Alan McDougall, on 16 March 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

I agree that time and entropy are linked if they were not the universe would be static. Do we ever reach a MOMENT IN TIME I wonder about this time flows like a river does it not??

I sometimes wonder if the actual transition of time is smooth.  Assume it is somehow possible to objectively view some state that's experiencing time where the transition of time isn't smooth.  The observers within this state would not be aware of any slowing up or speeding down or stopping.  Objective to the state it wouldn't be.  I don't think it can be easily confirmed whether or not time actually is smooth.

Quote

Below is my personal idea about time, what do you think about this post?


EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE NOTHING IS ABSOLUTE


Nothing is as it seems to be and all things are subjective realities to the observer. Everything is relative to each person from the viewpoint of the only ultimate reality.

I agree.  Even that which is objective is still subjective as it is experienced.  What is objectiveness other than consensus of diverse subjectivity?

Quote

There is no absolute time, time moves differently from one object to the next and in one location to the next. For example, time moves slower on massive objects like the Sun or Jupiter and faster on smaller objects like our Earth. It moves even minutely faster in space. This is no longer a theory, but proven fact.

Yeah, more mass slower time relative to less mass.  More velocity = more mass = slower relative time.

Quote

Extremely accurate precision atomic clocks on fast moving spacecraft have detected this strange phenomenon and proven Einstein’s theory of relativity to be true.

Stop all the clocks in the universe and movement will continue unaffected.

Stop all movement and the illusion we call time will stop and nothing ever happen again.

I've wondered about this.  The only place within the universe where matter experiences no change is at absolute zero I think.  The thing that is curious with all movement stopping is this.  If there is some probability that time will start up again then it will.  With no time some probability must come to pass no matter how minuscule the chance.  Any change we experience is smooth.  Even if an infinite period of time were to pass relative to some previous state then it doesn't matter.  The moment that there is 1 change it will be experienced straight away.

That is this, assume you were frozen at absolute 0 and left for 10^10 000 years.  You're dethawed no cell damage bla bla.  As far as your concerned very little subjective time would have passed.

Quote

Time is elastic with in one moment in only one direction, namely into future moment. The twin paradox describes what happens. One twin boards a spacecraft traveling close to the speed of light, on a voyage for Alpha Centauri, some four light years from earth. Ten years he returns having aged only one year compared to his now twenty-year-older twin brother. An enigmatic paradox but absolutely true and real.

One exciting, but far distant use of this effect is the real possibility of reaching any moment in the future. Given enough speed, one could reach the Olympic Games of the year 2108, in a matter of a few subjective days. Backward times travel to the past, is a fantasy and if this were possible, a person could do the impossible and go back and murder their younger self. There is no universal now!  

Yeah, reminds me of photons.  The entire universe theoretically will be rendered empty by entropy before photons experience 1 tick of time.  (Though apparently neutrinos travel faster than photons..  What does that even mean..)

Quote

Events are simply there, hanging in space-time. Time cannot exist without space and space cannot exist without time. We only conceive of time by the movement of an object through space, so space and time are different realities of the same thing and can only exist where movement is allowed.

Movement includes a motionless rock.  It's constituents (molecules) are still active.

Quote

For example, stop all movement in the universe and you have stopped time, have you not? Therefore, these three things are one "spacetimemovement" reality. There is simply no universal now and each moment is unique to the observer. Maybe there is an eternal observer  perceiving the whole reality of our universe, like unraveled frames of a movie story, depicting the life of the universe, from its birth until its demise like separate billions of moments, recorded on each frame of the film of existence.

Subjectively no.  Objectively yes.  The subjects, in my mind, won't be aware of any stopping of the time.

Quote

Time is a measurement we have created to track how we move through space.

It should be obvious that something that is eternal cannot exist in three-dimensional reality. It must exist outside of what we call time and space in an “ever-changing moment”

By Alan McDougall 29/8/2007

Good read .  Time is a temporal dimension.  As masslessness seems to be the ultimate result of everything then it seems impossible for something to exist eternally.  It would have to exist eternally many times.  For every moment absolute masslessness comes about then there is an eternity.  But in this way one could also say there there is an eternity between every moment regardless of anything.  I don't think time should be thought of like this.  It implies that time exists without matter.  I don't think it does.  I don't think time should be thought of objectively unless comparing two or more times.

Quote

Also

http://www.timephysi...es-inertia.html


Once an object is set in motion the expansion of space in front of the object
slows producing slowing of time. While behind the moving object the expansion of space increases producing a faster time.These are local affects which create a time differential between the front and behind the object. The time differential then perpetuates the motion. The space itself resists motion and then perpetuates motion. This is inertia.

Haven't thought of inertia like that before haha o.O

[StarMountainKid]

If time is not a true dimension, just change, what enables change to occur? Time is the dimension which allows for change. If there were no time dimension the universe would be static.

Change occurs because that which changes is moving in the time dimension as well as in the spatial dimensions.

We can only directly experience the spatial dimensions, the time dimension is difficult to envision, and easily dismissed, because we cannot experience it with our senses.

We do not directly experience all of the wavelengths of the electromagnetic field either, but that does not mean that field does not exist all around us.

We experience the effect of the time dimension (the allowing of change), but not the time dimension itself. We experience the effect, but not the cause. This does not mean the cause does not exist.

[space11498]

I think there is no time .no past or present nor there is a future.All our movements are just a collection of photos or frames and these frames are made into a video to show the motion and to exclude the previous frame.  

[lightly]

lightly, on 11 March 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

If BigBang theory is to be believed,  Space/Time/Energy/Matter were ONE in a "singularity" ?   and  energy did emerge before cooling enough to form matter?  Which is another way of saying,  Matter/mass IS Energy?  
    Mass-less energy?  Energy-less mass!! ??  . . . i don't know.. i'm in over my head with this stuff.. it is fascinating though.  I'm still suspicious of Space/Time being a consequence of Energy/Mass... but they must be EQUALS.  ¿?

*

someone at GOOGLE though my post was interesting..  


What is Time? - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums - Page 3
6 days ago ... If BigBang theory is to be believed, Space/Time/Energy/Matter were ONE ... suspicious of Space/Time being a consequence of Energy/Mass...
www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic... - Cached - Similar
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http://www.google.co...2-7.10.1.2l20l0

[Alan McDougall]

PsiSeeker, on 16 March 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I sometimes wonder if the actual transition of time is smooth.  Assume it is somehow possible to objectively view some state that's experiencing time where the transition of time isn't smooth.  The observers within this state would not be aware of any slowing up or speeding down or stopping.  Objective to the state it wouldn't be.  I don't think it can be easily confirmed whether or not time actually is smooth.



I agree.  Even that which is objective is still subjective as it is experienced.  What is objectiveness other than consensus of diverse subjectivity?



Yeah, more mass slower time relative to less mass.  More velocity = more mass = slower relative time.



I've wondered about this.  The only place within the universe where matter experiences no change is at absolute zero I think.  The thing that is curious with all movement stopping is this.  If there is some probability that time will start up again then it will.  With no time some probability must come to pass no matter how minuscule the chance.  Any change we experience is smooth.  Even if an infinite period of time were to pass relative to some previous state then it doesn't matter.  The moment that there is 1 change it will be experienced straight away.

That is this, assume you were frozen at absolute 0 and left for 10^10 000 years.  You're dethawed no cell damage bla bla.  As far as your concerned very little subjective time would have passed.



Yeah, reminds me of photons.  The entire universe theoretically will be rendered empty by entropy before photons experience 1 tick of time.  (Though apparently neutrinos travel faster than photons..  What does that even mean..)



Movement includes a motionless rock.  It's constituents (molecules) are still active.



Subjectively no.  Objectively yes.  The subjects, in my mind, won't be aware of any stopping of the time.



Good read .  Time is a temporal dimension.  As masslessness seems to be the ultimate result of everything then it seems impossible for something to exist eternally.  It would have to exist eternally many times.  For every moment absolute masslessness comes about then there is an eternity.  But in this way one could also say there there is an eternity between every moment regardless of anything.  I don't think time should be thought of like this.  It implies that time exists without matter.  I don't think it does.  I don't think time should be thought of objectively unless comparing two or more times.


Haven't thought of inertia like that before haha o.O

Thanks for the well thought out reply we seem to concur on nearly every point