42 replies to this topic

[aquatus1]

I've dabbled.

[Myles]

aquatus1, on 02 March 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Wait, out of reach of humans, there were fourteen left.  Now that humans found them, there are thousands.

I get that it's cool to dump on humans all the time and all, but come on...a little credit where it's due.

And yeah, I sure that somewhere, someone is going to claim that we introduced dogs, cats, rats, or sold diseased blankets which killed the previous tree lobsters, but really, did anyone check before assuming it is the fault of the humans?

I'll back you up here.   Humans have done much damage to the earth, but this is a case of us helping out, so like you said let's give some credit.

[Coffey]

Sevenof Seven, on 05 March 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

When the planet is ravaged, natural resources are used up, pollution, space junk that floats around planet Earth, extinct species because they were hunted to extinction, animals that are killed purely for their coats like tigers and other species of big cats, hundreds of elephants were just killed in the past week and rhinos are being killed and reported in the news also in the past week when there were only a few hundred of them left... it's all humans doing that... did we mention over fishing and all the fish that we now should not be eating because they are nearly all gone?.... been to a sushi place lately that they give you the list of fish that you should not be eating because they are now on the endangered list? Oh... nothing to do with humans. There are alot of wonderful and beautiful things in this world....LOTS and I am not saying that there are not. I am saying that if there is something natural and beautiful in this world, animals or natural resource, humans come along and find a way to exploit it, use it, kill it, hunt it, sell it. It's just the way humans are. There is a need to conquer and divide. Yes, it sometimes serves us... but in the end, we as human beings need to look at ways to conserve, protect and plan for the future of the planet, which no one is doing.

Sevenof Seven, on 05 March 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Thanks Coffey. Yes, this is what I meant. I just posted before seeing this post.... I do not want to fight about anything-that's not what I'm about. I do love nature and I love animals. Here's the thing... Aquatus1, have you ever been to Africa? Have you seen the animals running and living free? Have you smelt the Earth after the sun has been raging hot all day on the Savannah? If you have not.... I suggest you go... immediately, because once you visit Africa and see how free life can be, you will never be the same again and you will think differently about Mother Earth and your small part on this planet and it becomes apparent that things have to change, attitudes towards animals and the way we use limited natural resources needs to change. Spending time in Africa changed me and I think it would change anyone and let you see things in a different way.

Peace and God Bless.

I agree with all of this, I haven't been to Africa yet as I haven't been abel to afford it sadly. It is a dream of mine to go there and it's high on my to do list.

No need to thank me.

[Pandora7321]

Baby Lord Howe Stick Insect Hatching

[Simbi Laveau]

That's awesome. Should happen more often .

[aquatus1]

The greatest disservice one can do to animals is assume they are anything other than animals.

[Coffey]

aquatus1, on 06 March 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

The greatest disservice one can do to animals is assume they are anything other than animals.

I disagree with that so much. One of the worst thing humans do is look at animals as inferior and under us. (this causes whale and dolphin slaughter, extinction of species etc) Which is far from the truth. We might seem the most evolved species on this planet. But we ARE animals ourselves and a lot of humans lack things that other species have more of which is a sign of being more evolved. Empathy is is one of these things. Empathy is the key to our evolution not science and technology.

Right now the main reasons our science and technology is making progress is through war... That is messed up. We should be making progress for better reasons like humanitarian reasons etc.


Yeah fair enough getting a rocket into space or getting to the moon was made possible by the advances in rocket/missile technology... But if all these countries where at peace and all pulled their resources together we would have been far beyond the moon by now. Instead we are fighting over these resources like spoiled children and destroying a beautiful planet at the same time. Which we will be stuck on when we get tot he point where it's uninhabitable. A lot of humans need to grow up and realise what is truly important.

Edited by Coffey, 06 March 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[aquatus1]

Coffey, on 06 March 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

I disagree with that so much. One of the worst thing humans do is look at animals as inferior and under us.

Animals are inferior to us.  They are also under us.  

None of this, however, is the same as saying that animals should be abused or that humans should not care about them.  That is a false dichotomy.

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(this causes whale and dolphin slaughter, extinction of species etc) Which is far from the truth.

Humans do not hunt whales or kill dolphins because we consider them inferior.  We hunt them because it is profitable to do so.

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We might seem the most evolved species on this planet. But we ARE animals ourselves and a lot of humans lack things that other species have more of which is a sign of being more evolved. Empathy is is one of these things. Empathy is the key to our evolution not science and technology.

Not even close.  Not only do humans have empathy, which many animals have not shown, we have something beyond empathy, that no other animal on the planet has ever shown.

Humans have the ability, and desire, to fix their mistakes.

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Right now the main reasons our science and technology is making progress is through war... That is messed up. We should be making progress for better reasons like humanitarian reasons etc.

Yes, well, you can blame Mother Nature for that one.  Not that I consider it a fault, but either way, she's the one who programmed us.

The good news is that we are breaking free from her programming (which is why I don't consider humans to be animals).  We are, actually, the only species who has actually developed technologies for purposes other than survival, and for reasons other than killing.

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Yeah fair enough getting a rocket into space or getting to the moon was made possible by the advances in rocket/missile technology... But if all these countries where at peace and all pulled their resources together we would have been far beyond the moon by now.

Not according to the history books.  Times of peace have, traditionally, been the times of least scientific progress.  Necessity being the mother of invention and all.

Not that it is very conclusive.  Times of peace are few and far between, after all.

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Instead we are fighting over these resources like spoiled children and destroying a beautiful planet at the same time. Which we will be stuck on when we get tot he point where it's uninhabitable. A lot of humans need to grow up and realise what is truly important.

I agree.

And the first step is to cast away the illusion that we are anything more or anything less than our behaviour.  Being the superior species on the planet is neither a good thing, or a bad thing.  It simply is.  Up to recently, humans have been behaving in a callously naturalistic way, just like any predator that finds itself in new territory, tearing up the local environment without a care.  Yes, we were little more than animals ourselves.

Fortunately, over the past several generations, that has been changing.  Slowly, but surely, we are developing a feeling of intolerance and the barbaric and brutal dictates of nature.  We are reaching towards a higher standard, and because of that, even the highest Alphas of our societies, the humans with the most power and most influence, have found themselves having to yield to public demand for greater consideration.  The most blatant and horrific abuses of nature from the recent past are no longer tolerated, and when discovered, heavy, heavy damage is done to reputation.  

We are nowhere near divine yet.  We have barely taken the first toddling steps down this strange new road, our hands are still holding on to the gateway of Nature, from where we came.  Our past is still very much alive in our heads, and our instincts still insistent that our intellectuality is little more than an illusion, but that will pass.  Our behaviour has gone from that of animals like any other, to an entirely new breed of creature, one who can actually separate itself from nature, see the flaws both natural and man-made, and seek ways to correct them.  Of course, there are those who would still return to our more animalistic reasoning, justifying the destruction and predation of those below us by claiming our superiority, but there are also those who bar their way, who see their superiority not as an excuse to destroy, but as a responsibility to conserve.

And I, for one, cannot help but believe that the latter are gaining in strength, slowly growing in power as the last of the old regime passes on.

[Coffey]

aquatus1, on 07 March 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Animals are inferior to us.  They are also under us.

Evolution wise yes, worth... No, this is where the problem lies.

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Humans do not hunt whales or kill dolphins because we consider them inferior.  We hunt them because it is profitable to do so.

Well the facts show otherwise. Japanese school children etc would walk past dying dolphins that had been cut up etc, which where making lots of noise in obvious pain and suffering and not even blink an eye. But after educating the children and some adults there has been a huge change in the general view of slaughtering dolphins/whales in japan. Which is why they resorted to using places like the Cove and hiding it. So that proves it's mostly ignorance.

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Not even close.  Not only do humans have empathy, which many animals have not shown, we have something beyond empathy, that no other animal on the planet has ever shown.

Humans have the ability, and desire, to fix their mistakes.

I never said humans don't have empathy, as I do. lol I said a lot don't show or seem to have it at all. That is a huge difference. More importantly a lot of humans don't show cross species empathy which in my opinion is what shows true empathy. Dolphins, leopards, hippos and many other animals have shown cross species empathy.  

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Yes, well, you can blame Mother Nature for that one.  Not that I consider it a fault, but either way, she's the one who programmed us.

The good news is that we are breaking free from her programming (which is why I don't consider humans to be animals).  We are, actually, the only species who has actually developed technologies for purposes other than survival, and for reasons other than killing.

Well I disagree on this. How I see it is that some humans like "fighting" or "war" like other like sport. (not much difference except people die, but this probably adds to the liking of it) This does come from our "programming" but it shows a stronger willed person who will choose peace over war. Unless it is truly necessary. Fighting for freedom and against nationalism/Tyranny is not bad. WW2 and WW2 are wars we should have been involved in... After that everything else was unnecessary and driven by greed. If our leaders are that weak and corrupt then I can't see them ever leading us to progress.

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Not according to the history books.  Times of peace have, traditionally, been the times of least scientific progress.  Necessity being the mother of invention and all.

Egyptians and Roman Empire. Both had advances in technology during peace. Didn't the Egyptians have some sort of electric lighting systems? It's more the fact that during war leaders demanded things. They should have demanded things during peace.

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I agree.

And the first step is to cast away the illusion that we are anything more or anything less than our behaviour.  Being the superior species on the planet is neither a good thing, or a bad thing.  It simply is.  Up to recently, humans have been behaving in a callously naturalistic way, just like any predator that finds itself in new territory, tearing up the local environment without a care.  Yes, we were little more than animals ourselves.

Fortunately, over the past several generations, that has been changing.  Slowly, but surely, we are developing a feeling of intolerance and the barbaric and brutal dictates of nature.  We are reaching towards a higher standard, and because of that, even the highest Alphas of our societies, the humans with the most power and most influence, have found themselves having to yield to public demand for greater consideration.  The most blatant and horrific abuses of nature from the recent past are no longer tolerated, and when discovered, heavy, heavy damage is done to reputation.  

We are nowhere near divine yet.  We have barely taken the first toddling steps down this strange new road, our hands are still holding on to the gateway of Nature, from where we came.  Our past is still very much alive in our heads, and our instincts still insistent that our intellectuality is little more than an illusion, but that will pass.  Our behaviour has gone from that of animals like any other, to an entirely new breed of creature, one who can actually separate itself from nature, see the flaws both natural and man-made, and seek ways to correct them.  Of course, there are those who would still return to our more animalistic reasoning, justifying the destruction and predation of those below us by claiming our superiority, but there are also those who bar their way, who see their superiority not as an excuse to destroy, but as a responsibility to conserve.

And I, for one, cannot help but believe that the latter are gaining in strength, slowly growing in power as the last of the old regime passes on.

I pretty much agree with all that. Especially the end part.

I just don't see it changing fully until the "leaders" do somehting about it and I can't see that happening until we change the leaders we choose which isn't going to happen until the majority are the people who support these things.

[Mr.Delicious]

I think both of you are guilty of looking at humanity/nature rather subjectively. First of all the term "animal" simply denotes a eukaryotic heterotrophic organism. Anything more is you're own personal interpretation/opinion. Humans fit this definition, therefore humans are just as much an animal as the most simple jellyfish. This means that humans are animals and are intrinsically and indellibly part of the animal kingdom and the natural world. Anything that humans do  therefore is natural, to say anything to  the contrary is to insist that humans are somehow divine or supernatural. Thusly World War II was as a natural process as whale migrations.

Secondly Nature is a brutsih thing. The weak and the stupid are viciously and remosorelsssly annihilated from this earth. To say that humans should somehow be above the endless killing and competition is to imply that humans are inherently superior than animals unless you scold chimpanzee tribes for murdering each other with the same passion as you do humans.

Also,  If you try to say that animals only kill for food or immediate self defense then you are simply incorrect. Male lions will remorselessly kill(and not consume) male cubs for fear that they might grow up and steal their mates. Is that evil? How come it's ok for  male lions to murder lion childrem  out of simple sexual jealously and yet Japanese children not going to pieces over some dying dolphin is somehow reprehensible? Stop applying words like "good" and "evil" to natural processes....

[aquatus1]

Mr.Delicious, on 14 March 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

I think both of you are guilty of looking at humanity/nature rather subjectively.

Well...sure.

Doesn't mean it is wrong, though.

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Secondly Nature is a brutsih thing. The weak and the stupid are viciously and remosorelsssly annihilated from this earth. To say that humans should somehow be above the endless killing and competition is to imply that humans are inherently superior than animals unless you scold chimpanzee tribes for murdering each other with the same passion as you do humans.

In my defense, I never implied it.

I said it outright.

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Also,  If you try to say that animals only kill for food or immediate self defense then you are simply incorrect. Male lions will remorselessly kill(and not consume) male cubs for fear that they might grow up and steal their mates. Is that evil? How come it's ok for  male lions to murder lion childrem  out of simple sexual jealously and yet Japanese children not going to pieces over some dying dolphin is somehow reprehensible? Stop applying words like "good" and "evil" to natural processes....

I agree.  Like I said, there is really only one thing that separates humans and animals.

[Myles]

Mr.Delicious, on 14 March 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

I think both of you are guilty of looking at humanity/nature rather subjectively. First of all the term "animal" simply denotes a eukaryotic heterotrophic organism. Anything more is you're own personal interpretation/opinion. Humans fit this definition, therefore humans are just as much an animal as the most simple jellyfish. This means that humans are animals and are intrinsically and indellibly part of the animal kingdom and the natural world. Anything that humans do  therefore is natural, to say anything to  the contrary is to insist that humans are somehow divine or supernatural. Thusly World War II was as a natural process as whale migrations.

Secondly Nature is a brutsih thing. The weak and the stupid are viciously and remosorelsssly annihilated from this earth. To say that humans should somehow be above the endless killing and competition is to imply that humans are inherently superior than animals unless you scold chimpanzee tribes for murdering each other with the same passion as you do humans.

Also,  If you try to say that animals only kill for food or immediate self defense then you are simply incorrect. Male lions will remorselessly kill(and not consume) male cubs for fear that they might grow up and steal their mates. Is that evil? How come it's ok for  male lions to murder lion childrem  out of simple sexual jealously and yet Japanese children not going to pieces over some dying dolphin is somehow reprehensible? Stop applying words like "good" and "evil" to natural processes....

Don't forget to remind them that they are lumping all humans into one catagory.   It is not true to say "humans like to be at war and to kill animals".  Some do.   Many don't.   It's unfortunate that the stronger, less empathetic humans are in charge most of the time.  No different than with my chickens at home.  I have 2 roosters and the bigger stronger more aggresive one rules the roost.  He'll beat up on a hen or 2 each day just to show who is in charge.   This happens with most animals (including humans).

[Emin]

Wow a black stick insect thas new to me don't think i've ever heard of this one before, interesting, and a very splendid story glad to know that they could have helped breed more of them. Goody! And the chances of finding them in the middle of a sea lol.