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Militarization of our police?


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#16    MichaelW

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:24 AM

Many countries have military style police forces operating alongside the civilian ones. They are called gendarmeries.

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#17    Yamato

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 05 March 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

The poor have to pay the same interest rates as the Rich. It is just that they have to pay their debt off over a far longer period, and thus the magic of accrued interest comes into effect. There is no secret Jewish formulas. Banks charge what they charge based on Credit Rating, Collateral and length of debt.

Lower credit --> Higher interest rates

Cerberusxp was right.  The poorer you are the more you pay.  You only added an additional reason that the poor pay more.

It's even worse than this lately with as tight as banks are with their easy credit they're not loaning out. Forget a home loan, one can barely get a low limit credit card unless it's over 20% APR.  If you're not making a respectable income it doesn't matter what your FICO score is.  This makes sense because it's not just about using money to pay bills, it's having money to pay bills.  And things that make sense are often injustices too.

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#18    Babe Ruth

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

View PostCorp, on 05 March 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Hmm...nine posts in and no one has appeared to say the US already is a totalitarian state. You surprise me UM.


Anyway I have to agree with 747400. The source sounds very fishy.


The source is fairly irrelevant.  Your point that the US is already a totalitarian state is spot on!  :hmm:


#19    Corp

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:10 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

The source is fairly irrelevant.  Your point that the US is already a totalitarian state is spot on!  :hmm:

Actually it's not...it's not at all. My point was that with threads like thing there's often people who wail about how the US is an oppressive dictatorship. The fact that they're able to freely say this without being dragged away and shot seems to escape them.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#20    Babe Ruth

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:25 PM

View PostCorp, on 06 March 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Actually it's not...it's not at all. My point was that with threads like thing there's often people who wail about how the US is an oppressive dictatorship. The fact that they're able to freely say this without being dragged away and shot seems to escape them.

Well it certainly doesn't escape me.

But I've been keeping track, loosely, for the last 25 or 30 years, of what's called the "Per Capita Rate of Imprisonment", which is expressed in 'x' per 100,000 inhabitants.  And the US has led that category for all that time.

Back when there was the USSR and South Africa still practiced apartheid, for 10 or 15 years the number 1 spot rotated between those 2 countries and the US.  After the demise of apartheid and the USSR, the US has been #1 every year.  Last I checked we were up there in the high 600's, maybe 700.

The next highest country was somewhere less than 200, and the average number for the European countries was about 110.

The largest single factor for that high number is our War On Drugs, as something over half of federal prisoners are in on drug charges.

And now at the end of 2011 the POTUS signed NDAA into law, and that does away with Habeas Corpus, if you know what that means. We have had the Patriot Act with us now for about 10 years now, and that effectively nullifies the Fourth Amendment, if you know what that means.

So, yes it's true, I can walk out into my front yard and do whatever I damn well please.  But so can the average Brit or Australian or Austrian.  But that does not mean that by many standards, most not addressed in this post, the US is not a totalitarian state.


#21    Corp

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:47 PM

http://en.wikipedia....Totalitarianism

If you don't like the way the US is going that's all well and good. But claiming it's something that it's not is just foolish.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#22    RightInTheStatisticals

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:36 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

The source is fairly irrelevant.  Your point that the US is already a totalitarian state is spot on!  :hmm:

How is the US a totalitarian state? There are plenty of thing to not like about areas of US or local policy and law, but totalitarian?


#23    and then

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostCorp, on 06 March 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Actually it's not...it's not at all. My point was that with threads like thing there's often people who wail about how the US is an oppressive dictatorship. The fact that they're able to freely say this without being dragged away and shot seems to escape them.
Which proves the individual has no clue what a totalitarian regime IS or is intentionally using hyperbole to slam the US.  It gets tiresome.  People who otherwise seem intelligent that can look at the situation in Syria or Iran and then call the US a totalitarian State, I have trouble taking seriously.

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#24    aquatus1

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:48 AM

Totalitarianism!

The New Godwin's Law! :tu:


#25    DieChecker

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:51 AM

View PostYamato, on 06 March 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Lower credit --> Higher interest rates

Cerberusxp was right.  The poorer you are the more you pay.  You only added an additional reason that the poor pay more.
Only if you are going to insist on living beyond your means. If someone making 15,000 a year pays their bills on time and manages their credit cards, they can have over a 1700 credit rating. It is because the Poor insist on having 10,000... 20,000.... or, 50,000 dollars in credit that they spend buying crap, that they get bad credit and go into horrible debt.

The problem is not that the poor get automatically charged more, it is that the Poor have been sold that they need to live beyond their means. That they MUST have all the Things.

Stop buying 48 inch screen TVs you cannot AFFORD people.

Quote

It's even worse than this lately with as tight as banks are with their easy credit they're not loaning out. Forget a home loan, one can barely get a low limit credit card unless it's over 20% APR.  If you're not making a respectable income it doesn't matter what your FICO score is.  This makes sense because it's not just about using money to pay bills, it's having money to pay bills.  And things that make sense are often injustices too.
I pay my bills and have a 1720 credit score, yet I'm not even close to rich. I have letters in the mail everyday for Discover, Slate Card, and other credit cards, plus mortgage refinance letters offering 3.75% rates. I'm not rich, I just don't live extravagantly like we are all taught by the TV that we need to.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

But I've been keeping track, loosely, for the last 25 or 30 years, of what's called the "Per Capita Rate of Imprisonment", which is expressed in 'x' per 100,000 inhabitants.  And the US has led that category for all that time.

.....

The largest single factor for that high number is our War On Drugs, as something over half of federal prisoners are in on drug charges.
This is True... But.... It is not the War on Drugs putting people in federal prison. It is people breaking the law. If John Johnson did not insist on smoking dope in his car. If Tim McNugget did not insist on selling crack to suppliment his Costco job. If Jenny Havana did not try to bring methanphedamine across the Rio Gran. Then these people would not be in prison.

Why is it so hard to NOT use and sell drugs? Poverty? Bad, ignorant excuse.

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#26    aquatus1

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:58 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 07 March 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

It is not the War on Drugs putting people in federal prison. It is people breaking the law.

Agreed.  However, to be fair, there have been indications that many of the laws that have been put into place or modified to include prison sentences have been supported and pushed by the companies that run the prisons.

In other words, privatization of the federal prison system may have resulted in a higher prison population because, whereas the Federal government had no incentive to keep people in jail, private companies make more money the more prisoners there are.

Again, I stress, may.


#27    DieChecker

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:03 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 07 March 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Agreed.  However, to be fair, there have been indications that many of the laws that have been put into place or modified to include prison sentences have been supported and pushed by the companies that run the prisons.

In other words, privatization of the federal prison system may have resulted in a higher prison population because, whereas the Federal government had no incentive to keep people in jail, private companies make more money the more prisoners there are.

Again, I stress, may.
True. But unless you believe every single guy on the TV show Cops did indeed not have any drugs on them and it was planted by the police, the people arrested still should have known not to be using or selling drugs. They take a chance and if they have 2 brain cells to rub together they know they could go to prison for months or years.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#28    DieChecker

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:06 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 07 March 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Agreed.  However, to be fair, there have been indications that many of the laws that have been put into place or modified to include prison sentences have been supported and pushed by the companies that run the prisons.

In other words, privatization of the federal prison system may have resulted in a higher prison population because, whereas the Federal government had no incentive to keep people in jail, private companies make more money the more prisoners there are.

Again, I stress, may.
Banks do the same thing by trying to push credit cards, and by getting the law to support their horrendous fees, but we have the ability to just not use credit cards. And to take our money from the bank to another that does not hose us over.

Are the prisons influencing the Judges, Juries and Evidence?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#29    aquatus1

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:21 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 07 March 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

True. But unless you believe every single guy on the TV show Cops did indeed not have any drugs on them and it was planted by the police, the people arrested still should have known not to be using or selling drugs. They take a chance and if they have 2 brain cells to rub together they know they could go to prison for months or years.

Yes, I did agree with that.

View PostDieChecker, on 07 March 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Banks do the same thing by trying to push credit cards, and by getting the law to support their horrendous fees, but we have the ability to just not use credit cards. And to take our money from the bank to another that does not hose us over.

Are the prisons influencing the Judges, Juries and Evidence?

I sincerely doubt it.  Blue-collar crime tends to be easier to upgrade to jail time than debt.  We still have a bad association with people being thrown in debtor's prisons, and it is unlikely any company would want to draw attention to themselves by proposing it.


#30    Babe Ruth

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:07 PM

View PostRightInTheStatisticals, on 06 March 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

How is the US a totalitarian state? There are plenty of thing to not like about areas of US or local policy and law, but totalitarian?

In my previous post I mentioned how NDAA just signed eliminates Habeas Corpus, which is a very old legal principle stating that the government cannot hold any suspect longer than 48 or 72 hours if it cannot prove to a neutral third party (the court) that it has a solid case against that suspect.

The NDAA also effectively nullifies the Fifth Amendment, and the Patriot Act effectively nullifies the Fourth Amendment.

Being able to hold a citizen indefinitely, and being able to search anybody anytime any place without what they call "due process" are qualities of a totalitarian state.

I can understand how these things are very unpleasant to contemplate and come to terms with.  At least they are for me.

But they are reality.  Eric Holder has recently defended the end of the Fifth and Habeas just last week or so.  No, it wasn't on the TV evening news, along with "analysis."  It's so unpleasant that even the talking heads don't like talking about it.

There is much much more, but I'll stop here.





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