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El Bosque Air Base, Santiago, Chile


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#16    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:58 AM

View PostChrlzs, on 17 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Here's an open invitation to Leslie Kean, why not come on over and discuss the situation here?
I wouldn't count on it.  But maybe if you commented on her Facebook page... ?

By the way, I agree with your critiques.  It seems quite obvious to me that the video we have seen shows nothing more than bugs (and planes of course...).


#17    archernyc

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:02 AM

Thanks for that link Boony - that's great stuff! Can't wait to hear about the other sighting she mentions.

I didn't even realize that she's on FB, duh! :blink:

Edited by archernyc, 18 April 2012 - 02:02 AM.

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#18    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:23 AM

View Postarchernyc, on 18 April 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

Thanks for that link Boony - that's great stuff! Can't wait to hear about the other sighting she mentions.

I didn't even realize that she's on FB, duh! :blink:
You're very welcome for the link archer. :)

I'm curious though.  Do you think there is anything other than bugs depicted in that video?


#19    Scepticus

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:48 AM

View PostBrandOfAmber, on 20 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Hi Scepticus,

Just playing devil's advocate here.  I appreciate your rationale, and would like to explore it further...

1) Many reports never see the light of day...

Hello BrandOfAmber! Sorry for the late reply.

Wouldn't you agree if top military officials claim they have made a scientific report which establish the objects in the released video are not from this world, they should released the report so every one could have a look at their evidence.  

View PostBrandOfAmber, on 20 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

2) Scientific Journals have incredibly high standards.  I recently authored a paper that suggested a method of reducing carbon in Earth's atmosphere, and the paper was denied by Nature, and Science.  After hearing their reasons, it made sense, and the answer could also be used to deny a paper entry on the UFO topic.  Journals such as this require repeatable experiments.  You simply cannot repeat what happened in the video (testing all of the options that is...) without a UFO to test for that hypothesis.  You can test some of the more terrestrial ones, but journals like Science and Nature like answers.  They specifically like solid answers that were derived from studies that can be repeated by anyone...

Sad to hear, just out of curiosity what is the method?

But if you are able to claim at an UFO conference you have had top scientists working on this report for 2 years, i wouldn't imagine any scietific journal would reject the report if its is well documented and the evidence is irrefutable. Even if it was rejected, you could still present the evidence at a scientific conference, no reviewing process is needed there.

BTW i have seen a lot of junk science being published by journals, you just need to find the right journal.

View PostBrandOfAmber, on 20 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

3) You are correct, the UFO is not in every frame.  This would be expected though, if you do a comparison of the apparent speed of the 'object' against the speed of the fighter jets...  The camera is limited by it's shutter speed.  It is possible (although not with current human tech in the public domain) to move faster than the camera can capture.  This could also be possible with a close to the camera bug... However it would not be possible if indeed there was an RC plane flying around in an attempt to fake a ufo sighting...  

Thanks! I'm no video expert, but your explanation makes sense.

View PostBrandOfAmber, on 20 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

4) This is now 2012 (2010 in the article, yes), and in reality 2 years isn't much when dealing with the entire conscious mindset of the human race.  The Battle of Los Angeles happened more than 60 years ago, and to date the United States Navy is on record stating that event contained an 'Unidentified Flying Object', one that took all the punishment our US Anti-Aircraft Batteries could throw at it... and then flew off without damage...  

Thoughts?

- Brand

The L.A incident is indeed very interesting. Maybe it's because i haven't really looked at the case in depth, but my take on this ballte of Los Angeles is that war nerves and war hype might have something to do with the incident. This might just be ignorance, i'll have to look into this.

:D

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#20    quillius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:52 PM

View PostScepticus, on 18 April 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

The L.A incident is indeed very interesting. Maybe it's because i haven't really looked at the case in depth, but my take on this ballte of Los Angeles is that war nerves and war hype might have something to do with the incident. This might just be ignorance, i'll have to look into this.

:D

hey Scepticus, yes there are some good threads on here (even covered in one of the BE threads in depth).....

as for bolded, yes, they may have played a part but not at the expense of an object in the sky.


#21    archernyc

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 18 April 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

I'm curious though.  Do you think there is anything other than bugs depicted in that video?

From the article:

Quote

"The existence of more than one video, taken by different people at different distances catching the same scene, inclines us to believe this is not just a bug," Bermúdez told me last week. "We do not owe anything to anyone on this, because we are interested only in the science. However, we will give further details when these other studies are completed."

Also, reading between the lines from what Kean has to say, I suspect that she has been shown the other videos but has agreed not to disclose that she has seen them. I don't think she would have written about this case without seeing more than this one video which raises more questions than answers. Do you think the Chilean organization is just trying to create interest to drive tourism?  :rolleyes:

I'm looking forward to hearing more on this and the release of the other videos.

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#22    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:15 PM

View Postarchernyc, on 18 April 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

From the article:


Also, reading between the lines from what Kean has to say, I suspect that she has been shown the other videos but has agreed not to disclose that she has seen them. I don't think she would have written about this case without seeing more than this one video which raises more questions than answers. Do you think the Chilean organization is just trying to create interest to drive tourism?  :rolleyes:

I'm looking forward to hearing more on this and the release of the other videos.
Yes, I read the article.  I was asking whether you gave credence to it.  I guess that you do.  Thanks archer.


#23    archernyc

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:55 PM

Update from Leslie Kean's Facebook page:  

Quote

Exciting News! I'm going to Santiago, Chile on June 7th on an "official visit" with the CEFAA. The staff are arranging interviews for me with high level military and aviation officials, scientists and police who work with them to investigate UAP. General Ricardo Bermudez (photo) is the head of the CEFAA.

She'll be there this Thursday...

Quote

I will certainly be writing about this after I get back. I expect to learn a lot about how the CEFAA operates and has won so much respect throughout the country, at all levels. And hopefully I will have interesting case information as well.

Let's hope that she gets to see all 7 videos and perhaps posts them!


Quote

This is an exclusive interview with Leslie Kean and Jose Lay, the Director of International Affairs for Chile’s official UFO investigation organization, CEFAA. The Committee of Studies of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena (CEFAA) is an arm of Chile's version of the FAA. They have been busy for decades investigating high level UFO sightings, many by the military, commercial pilots and control tower operators. As an official organization, CEFAA tries to keep a low profile and rarely grants interviews. However, at the request of Leslie Kean, author of the book UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record, they are allowing Jose to speak with us. This is a first for U.S. radio. This interview is a rare glimpse into the inner workings of CEFAA and their outreach program to work with the governments of other countries to investigate the UFO Phenomenon.
http://www.blogtalkr...-investigations

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#24    ChrLzs

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:33 AM

Just bumping this, as it was mentioned elsewhere.

Does anyone have any new information?

Where is the promised info and follow up from Kean - if none, what excuses does she offer?

Where are the other videos (or even any stills thereof)?

Where is the analysis?

Does Bermudez seriously get paid for this sort of 'effort'?

All my posts about Apollo are dedicated to the memory of MID - who knew, lived and was an integral part of, Apollo.

"Like the JFK assassination conspiracy theories, the UFO issue probably will not go away soon, no matter what the CIA does or says. The belief that we are not alone in the universe is too emotionally appealing and the distrust of our government is too pervasive to make the issue amenable to traditional scientific studies or rational explanation and evidence." - Gerald K Haines

#25    ChrLzs

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:48 AM

A well-known UAP=UFO=Alienz!! supporter who shall remain nameless, has now posted a link to this report by a 'Richard Haines':

NARCAP PDF (approx 1Mb)

First, a confession.  I was sorta hoping he would bring that report up, as it is a fabulous textbook example of the worst of ufology, and yet some folks swallow it up eagerly..

Over the next few weeks (yes, I'm a bit time challenged and it's Xmas..!), starting with this brief post, I'll be looking at this report in great detail and explaining why it is a load of excrement...  Others are most welcome to join in, preferably with some expertise rather than handwaving..  As for me I'll be backing up my comments and refutations with actual quotes along with appropriate cites and references, even some diagrams and a little basic mathematics..

In that process, I'll be referring to this page:
Huff'ton Post Article
which is a lengthy 'expose' by UFO-promoter and self appointed expert Leslie Kean, who tells us she was invited to talk to the analysts and those most familiar with the 'case'.

So let's start, shall we..?  Note that any bold or highlighting of text in the following quotes is mine.  The report first states:

Quote

This paper presents the results of an analysis of many video segments taken on November 5, 2010 at the El Bosque Air Force Base in the S.W. suburbs of Santiago, Chile.
Remember those words for later..  This initially seems in line with Leslie Kean's report, which states:

Quote

CEFAA officials collected seven videos of the El Bosque UFO taken from different vantage points.
and:

Quote

The UFO was captured on seven cameras from different vantage points.
I think that is all pretty clear.. right?  Back to the report:

Quote

an angularly small, low-contrast, oval- shaped object was recorded by two digital video cameras
Now I'll come back to the angular size, low contrast and alleged oval-shape later, but did seven (or many) just turn into TWO?

Sigh.  Ok, let's move on..  Haines goes on:

Quote

the same UAP was very probably recorded by two digital cameras at the same time on one occasion which made it possible to estimate its nearest distance and thus, a likely range of UAP sizes..
So, now that we are down to TWO cameras, it's only 'very probable'??  But Haines is nevertheless happy to give a range of distances and sizes, and then he moves on to this classic:

Quote

The relatively short "flight" durations, high angular velocities and high speed changes in direction and small angular size of the UAP, recorded during seven of the ten airplane formation fly-overs, help explain why no one saw them at the time; these characteristics would appear to qualify these UAP as anomalous; they cannot be explained in prosaic terms.
Righto then.  One thing everyone agrees upon - NO-ONE saw anything.
Now, high angular speeds and maneuvers can mean one of two things - either it's a distant object going at high speeds, or it's something quite close going at much lower speeds,  Something like.. an INSECT (in prosaic terms).  Now, why didn't Haines elaborate on that?  Well, because he has allegedly found two pieces of footage (not seven) that PROBABLY show a correlation from which he worked out distances.. and thereby dismissed that possibility, despite it being a pretty good, if prosaic, explanation.

Now let's be very clear on this - anyone even remotely familiar with photogrammetry (the science of working out 'stuff' from images), will tell you that unless you have unambiguous and measurable information about either the size or distance of an object, you CANNOT make any determination about actual distances, sizes or speeds.  A camera simply measures ANGULAR information - close up things look big and fast, far away things look small and slow, and unless you KNOW some of the variables, you cannot make guesses.  I'll expand on those variables later (something Haines didn't do, and probably doesn't want to..)

So, how did Haines get his 'match' between two cameras to allow positive identification of the same object, and then allow trinagulation..?  Well.. this is where the report seems to leave out something very important..  Haines takes us through several items that he claims are near matches - yet notably, he doesn't claim an exact match.  Now at that point, one would expect to see an overlay of the images to show the correlation so that the report reader can see just how close the match is - after all, if there are many insects present that day, then some of them will probably fly in the same sort of directions, given wind conditions and the fact that they are probably going from .. somewhere they live to somewhere they feed or v-v. Hardly a surprise if some of them followed similar paths..

Anyway, these correlation diagrams would be of vital importance to prove Haines claim, and they should be somewhere around page 22..  But they aren't there.  We simply get Haines textual assurances that he found a .. well, almost .. sort of.. match.

Now lets remember - at the commencement of all this - there were allegedly SEVEN correlating videos from different cameras and viewpoints!!  That was the claim made by Kean, Bermudez, CEFAA.  Yet it turns out that there most certainly were NOT seven separate videos, and it finally transpires that of the two that were cherry-picked, there wasn't even ONE correlation that was worthy of actually showing.

Anyway, I've got a lot more to say about this section, and I haven't even started on the rest of that ridiculous report.  Wait till I get to the bit where he uses 50X magnification!  Haines makes CSI 'enhancements' look real..  Note that the following video is just for laughs, especially for those bemused by some of the ignorant rubbish proferred by supposed imaging experts:

:D I specially like the 'Rotate' bit..  I want *that* software..

Anyway, the rest will have to wait - I've got to get ready for a Xmas lunch (with my alien overlords - oops, wasn't supposed to say that...).

Edited by Chrlzs, 08 December 2012 - 01:06 AM.

All my posts about Apollo are dedicated to the memory of MID - who knew, lived and was an integral part of, Apollo.

"Like the JFK assassination conspiracy theories, the UFO issue probably will not go away soon, no matter what the CIA does or says. The belief that we are not alone in the universe is too emotionally appealing and the distrust of our government is too pervasive to make the issue amenable to traditional scientific studies or rational explanation and evidence." - Gerald K Haines

#26    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:47 AM

View PostChrlzs, on 08 December 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

A well-known UAP=UFO=Alienz!! supporter who shall remain nameless, has now posted a link to this report by a 'Richard Haines':



You nameless, too, chump.  Your name is rope a dope.

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#27    ChrLzs

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:03 AM

Quote

You {sic} nameless, too, chump.  Your name is rope a dope.

??  ..So that is MacGuffin's response to all those issues above?  A truly deep analysis and thoughtful response.. or not.

The big problem with ufology today is that any two-bit pretender like Haines can call themselves an analyst, and then come up with numerous impressive looking words to impress the gullible and support the contention that lame images/videos like this one show something other-worldly.  All in order to fit their biased desire to prove alienz are here.

Or... perhaps a bigger problem is that there are those that just lap this stuff up without questioning it.  Like Leslie Kean / Gen. Bermudez's claim of seven correlating videos, when Haine's 'report' shows that he couldn't even fully match two, cherry-picked segments.  You don't have to be an expert to see that some folks in this case are simply making stuff up.

If anyone else here has a bit of imaging/photogrammetry expertise, I'd be most pleased to hear your comments - I'd be very happy to flesh out all the issues with that report in much more depth than the 'brief' coverage I will be giving it here.  Well, it's going to be 'brief' as far as my standards go..  :D

Anyway I have xmas shopping to do, so the next instalment of the demolition of that Haines report must wait.


BBL with much more...

All my posts about Apollo are dedicated to the memory of MID - who knew, lived and was an integral part of, Apollo.

"Like the JFK assassination conspiracy theories, the UFO issue probably will not go away soon, no matter what the CIA does or says. The belief that we are not alone in the universe is too emotionally appealing and the distrust of our government is too pervasive to make the issue amenable to traditional scientific studies or rational explanation and evidence." - Gerald K Haines

#28    bmk1245

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

View PostChrlzs, on 09 December 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

[...]  You don't have to be an expert to see that some folks in this case are simply making stuff up.
[...]

:tu:

You nailed it.

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