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Human fossils hint at new species


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#1    glorybebe

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:54 PM

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The remains of what may be a previously unknown human species have been identified in southern China.

The bones, which represent at least five individuals, have been dated to between 11,500 and 14,500 years ago.

But scientists are calling them simply the Red Deer Cave people, after one of the sites where they were unearthed.

The team has told the PLoS One journal that far more detailed analysis of the fossils is required before they can be ascribed to a new human lineage.

"We're trying to be very careful at this stage about definitely classifying them," said study co-leader Darren Curnoe from the University of New South Wales, Australia.


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I wonder how many more 'humanoids' are still to be found.



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#2    Royal

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:34 AM

Looking at the artist's drawing of what this humanoid looked like my first thought was Aboriginal.However,to look at the skull itself I really don't see that.As time goes on I predict many more finds of this kind will be revealed.

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#3    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:36 AM

I hope they do turn out to be a new hominid. This article suggests that there is still some doubt.
Hominid evolution is fascinating.

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#4    psyche101

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:36 AM

And we are still struggling with Denisovan remains. How awesome, thanks for this one, it will be one to watch.

Flores, Denisovans Palau and now Red Deer People. Neanderthals are becoming old hat!

What I find truly amazing is the the species made it to a mere 11,500 years ago.



In general, the individuals had rounded brain cases with prominent brow ridges. Their skull bones were quite thick. Their faces were quite short and flat and tucked under the brain, and they had broad noses.

Their jaws jutted forward but they lacked a modern-human-like chin. Computed Tomography (X-ray) scans of their brain cavities indicate they had modern-looking frontal lobes but quite archaic-looking anterior, or parietal, lobes. They also had large molar teeth.



@ Royal, I thought the reconstruction looked more polynesian.

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#5    Royal

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:27 AM

Hey psyche101,I started out thinking South Pacific,but I just could'nt get Australia{specifically}out of my head. I wonder if some of the prehistory migrations came from further north in Asia to the South Pacific?

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#6    psyche101

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:03 AM

View PostRoyal, on 15 March 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Hey psyche101,I started out thinking South Pacific,but I just could'nt get Australia{specifically}out of my head. I wonder if some of the prehistory migrations came from further north in Asia to the South Pacific?


Hi Royal

Do you mean some bands of peoples, or are you referring to the out of Asia hypothesis?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#7    DieChecker

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:48 AM

I was just reading about these Red Deer Cave people. It sounds like possibly there were pockets of human sub-species all over not too long ago.

I thought the picture looked (except the ears) like someone that would go un-remarked in just about any crowd anywhere.

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#8    glorybebe

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 15 March 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

I was just reading about these Red Deer Cave people. It sounds like possibly there were pockets of human sub-species all over not too long ago.

I thought the picture looked (except the ears) like someone that would go un-remarked in just about any crowd anywhere.


I agree.  Kind of interesting that human's facial features haven't changed THAT much in the last how many thousand years?

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#9    Royal

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:43 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 March 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

Hi Royal

Do you mean some bands of peoples, or are you referring to the out of Asia hypothesis?
                                                                                                                                                                            Thats probably a better way of putting it{some bands of peoples}because now that I think about it Australia and Polynesia were reached by modern humans about 40-60,000 years BCE,due to low sea levels during the last ice age.I wonder if some of these hominids could have made this journey also and assimilated into peoples already there?

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#10    psyche101

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:04 AM

View PostRoyal, on 15 March 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Thats probably a better way of putting it{some bands of peoples}because now that I think about it Australia and Polynesia were reached by modern humans about 40-60,000 years BCE,due to low sea levels during the last ice age.I wonder if some of these hominids could have made this journey also and assimilated into peoples already there?


That is most certainly possible - from the link

Dr Curnoe and colleagues put forward two possible scenarios in their PLoS One paper for the origin of the Red Deer Cave population.

One posits that they represent a very early migration of a primitive-looking Homo sapiens that lived separately from other forms in Asia before dying out.

Another possibility contends that they were indeed a distinct Homo species that evolved in Asia and lived alongside our own kind until remarkably recently.

A third scenario being suggested by scientists not connected with the research is that the Red Deer Cave people could be hybrids.


View Postglorybebe, on 15 March 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

I agree.  Kind of interesting that human's facial features haven't changed THAT much in the last how many thousand years?


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Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#11    psyche101

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:08 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 15 March 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

I was just reading about these Red Deer Cave people. It sounds like possibly there were pockets of human sub-species all over not too long ago.

I thought the picture looked (except the ears) like someone that would go un-remarked in just about any crowd anywhere.


There does seem to be many hominids suddenly turning up. I find it remarkable that they all seem to be rather small.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#12    DieChecker

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:49 AM

What would be really interesting would be if one of these side-species was found to be the originator of something like agriculture, animal domestication, or relgion.

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#13    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:42 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 March 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

And we are still struggling with Denisovan remains. How awesome, thanks for this one, it will be one to watch.

Flores, Denisovans Palau and now Red Deer People. Neanderthals are becoming old hat!

What I find truly amazing is the the species made it to a mere 11,500 years ago.

In general, the individuals had rounded brain cases with prominent brow ridges. Their skull bones were quite thick. Their faces were quite short and flat and tucked under the brain, and they had broad noses.

Their jaws jutted forward but they lacked a modern-human-like chin. Computed Tomography (X-ray) scans of their brain cavities indicate they had modern-looking frontal lobes but quite archaic-looking anterior, or parietal, lobes. They also had large molar teeth.


@ Royal, I thought the reconstruction looked more polynesian.

I think we need to wait until the DNA is in before we start saying extinct.

When we profiled Neaderthal DNA we discovered most people on Earth have 4$ of their genes in them.


#14    Robbie333

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:51 PM

View Postglorybebe, on 14 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

My link


I wonder how many more 'humanoids' are still to be found.



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#15    taiwan

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Chance of extracting DNA is pretty slim. Remember we have 27,000 year old homo erectus found in Java we couldn't extract DNA from. Then there is homo floresiensis about 12,000 years ago found in Indoesia we also failed to extract its DNA. If these were found in Germany or Russia it should be a piece of cake. Southeast Asia is hot and humid which is not ideal for preserving DNA. We were able to extract DNA from Neanderthals that were much older. It's really a shame because we have so many hominin living within the last 100,000 years (DNA may survive that long under most ideal conditions). I have to say finding DNA from homo erectus would be the absolute holy grail for paleoanthropology.

I wrote a paper back in 1997 that I believe Out of Africa and Multi-Region theories were both correct to a degree. At the time we have no evidence of latter. But now, we are starting to see the evidence that different homo sapiens living today having different genome inherited from other extinct species. Africans have no Neanderthal genes, while the rest of the world have 1-4%. We also found a small population in Southeast Asia that have 4-6% of genes inherited from Denisova hominin. It would not surprise me if we find that parts of Southeast Asian inherit genes from this Red Cave species, if we are able to extract DNA. No one disputes out-of-Africa theory because we have DNA to prove it. But we know the specific population that carried x percentage of genes from species y. Multi-region scenario is also valid to a degree because we can quantify the theory.

I hope these researchers preserve the fossil well and send them to Max Planck Institute. If anyone can it's them. We missed an opportunity to salvage DNA from homo floresiensis because those who found the mushy fossil were using chemicals to harden the fossil which destroys DNA. At this point we have to value DNA much higher than the actual fossil. Look at Denisovan case. All we have is a pinky. Even though we don't know what that species look like, we know so much by having genome analysis.

My wild guess is that this may be some kind of mix between homo erectus/homo heidelbergensis and homo sapiens. Europe may give us good fossil and DNA preservation, but I don't think we're going to find anything other than Neanderthals or Denisovan species. I think Southeast Asia is a hotspot for human evolution studies. My theory is that because it's the among the last place homo sapiens migrated to, and some parts of the area were still occupied by the pockets of surviving ancient hominin such as homo erectus and its descendants. If they interbred some of the gene may have survived to this day. But we need its DNA to compare to the present population.

Edited by taiwan, 16 March 2012 - 03:13 PM.





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