79 replies to this topic

[acidhead]

wittyusernamefailed, on 17 March 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Not sure if the link actually exists acid. Been searching for it, and while I found a lot of site quoting it (granted they were almost entirely Zionistic, or Endtimes Fundamentalist Christian sites) none of them has any links tot eh original story. Nor is it being picked up by any major news source. Also the articles I found were from  few months ago. So it appears to have just been the usual "throw red meat to the Fundy base" that all the leaders of that region engage in; if it did in fact ever actually occur.

Thanks for the reply Mr. Witty.  I'm sure 'and then' came to the same conclusion as well but has declined the offer to reply with a link.  I'll mention, he defines himself openly here as a 'christian-zionist'...   Sometimes an individual's faith blinds them from accepting the truth.  It destroys all credibility in their pursuit for their magical god.

Edited by acidhead, 17 March 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[and then]

acidhead, on 17 March 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Thanks for the reply Mr. Witty.  I'm sure 'and then' came to the same conclusion as well but has declined the offer to reply with a link.  I'll mention, he defines himself openly here as a 'christian-zionist'...   Sometimes an individual's faith blinds them from accepting the truth.  It destroys all credibility in their pursuit for their magical god.

I'm sure that a mere Turkish publication will never satisfy someone of such a scholarly bent but here it is anyway.
http://www.todayszam...n?newsId=258900

I am indeed a Christian-Zionist.  Proud to be so. It sure beats being a jaded jackanape.

[MichaelW]

Yamato, on 17 March 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

It depends on whether they're willing to allocate resources necessary to provide those facilities.  A refugee crisis on one's own borders is hardly warmongering.

The warmongering was coming from Ankara not Damascus. However, the Turkish government is getting very concerned about the refugees. And I don't think it is the willingness to provide the required facilities but whether the Turkish government is actually able to. Half a million may be managable but if millions start streaming over the borders, is Ankara capable of handling them?

Although I am surprised that they aren't backing Damascus to prevent this sort of thing happening like China is with North Korea.

[and then]

MichaelW, on 18 March 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

The warmongering was coming from Ankara not Damascus. However, the Turkish government is getting very concerned about the refugees. And I don't think it is the willingness to provide the required facilities but whether the Turkish government is actually able to. Half a million may be managable but if millions start streaming over the borders, is Ankara capable of handling them?

Although I am surprised that they aren't backing Damascus to prevent this sort of thing happening like China is with North Korea.

I think they don't really want to be involved.  The conflict is becoming a civil war on their doorstep and it's bound to bleed over and cost them in many ways.  The twin booms yesterday have "alqueda" written all over them.  The whole country looks to be a modern "Lebanon".  Except for the madman with the chem/bio missiles.

[Yamato]

MichaelW, on 18 March 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

The warmongering was coming from Ankara not Damascus. However, the Turkish government is getting very concerned about the refugees. And I don't think it is the willingness to provide the required facilities but whether the Turkish government is actually able to. Half a million may be managable but if millions start streaming over the borders, is Ankara capable of handling them?

Although I am surprised that they aren't backing Damascus to prevent this sort of thing happening like China is with North Korea.

Preventing the need to have to handle such an influx of refugees is hardly warmongering.

[MichaelW]

Yamato, on 21 March 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Preventing the need to have to handle such an influx of refugees is hardly warmongering.

Yes it is. If you threaten to delcare war on someone, you're warmongering. Ankara's decided that seeing as no one will support them against Cyprus, they might as well try it against Damascus.

Besides, Turkey is getting what it wants through the rebels anyway seeing as a large influx of the weapons they use come from Turkey.

[The New Richard Nixon]

MichaelW, on 22 March 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Yes it is. If you threaten to delcare war on someone, you're warmongering. Ankara's decided that seeing as no one will support them against Cyprus, they might as well try it against Damascus.

Besides, Turkey is getting what it wants through the rebels anyway seeing as a large influx of the weapons they use come from Turkey.

No it's not

[Alienated Being]

For some reason, when I read this, I thought you were making reference to an actual turkey. That thought made me laugh.

Edit: It is still very early.

Edited by Alienated Being, 22 March 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[and then]

Alienated Being, on 22 March 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

For some reason, when I read this, I thought you were making reference to an actual turkey. That thought made me laugh.

Edit: It is still very early.

But getting later all the time.  Civil war seems to be underway and the suffering innocents will be looking for anywhere to flee to.  Unless the FSA can actually capture and defend a portion of the country as in Libya, the only place they'll have to go is Turkey or Lebanon.  Israel would help but that won't happen.  If Assad sees himself losing power he will start a regional war.  HE will not go quietly.

[Yamato]

MichaelW, on 22 March 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Yes it is. If you threaten to delcare war on someone, you're warmongering. Ankara's decided that seeing as no one will support them against Cyprus, they might as well try it against Damascus.

Besides, Turkey is getting what it wants through the rebels anyway seeing as a large influx of the weapons they use come from Turkey.

If you can't understand the difference between defending your own borders (which may require going to war and not just threatening to) and war mongering, then you'd have to not know that the war is already started.   Neocon/Zionists never could understand the difference between offense and defense.  It's all purposefully blurred together in some cute little cliche they heard a politician use on TV and now they're all military experts just for hearing it.

Turkey is already at war with "the rebels" on the other side of its border.   It's just another example of blowback from the war in Iraq destabilizing the region and no, instability, perpetual war, or an independent Kurdistan is not what Turkey wants.  Syria provides even more instability on Turkey's border than they had already, and Turkey would have no interest in going to war against Syrian rebels if they were believed friendly to their Kurdish counterparts, who both share a very common goal of independence and a very common tactic of armed resistance and a very common geography as next door neighbors.

[MichaelW]

Yamato, on 26 March 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

If you can't understand the difference between defending your own borders (which may require going to war and not just threatening to) and war mongering, then you'd have to not know that the war is already started.

So, by your definition, Turkey was defending itself from Cyrpus because the Cypriots permitted offshore oil drilling in its own territorial waters? And what exactly has the Syrian government done to make Ankara take these sorts of gestures?  

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Neocon/Zionists never could understand the difference between offense and defense.  It's all purposefully blurred together in some cute little cliche they heard a politician use on TV and now they're all military experts just for hearing it.

I am not a neocon nor a Zionist so please refrain from using such terms when engaging in debates with me. The latter is more reflective of you than me because I actually do the research and I know all there is

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Turkey is already at war with "the rebels" on the other side of its border.   It's just another example of blowback from the war in Iraq destabilizing the region and no, instability, perpetual war, or an independent Kurdistan is not what Turkey wants.

Way to state the obvious. Of course Turkey doesn't want an independent Kurdistan. No one apart from the Kurds do. And even then, most Kurds simply want to have cultural recognition that they have been denied for centuries and only recently are starting to gain.

Also, I'm starting to get sick and tired of the same spiel you put out when talking about the Middle East. For one thing, the Iraq War served as a casus belli for the Turkish Armed Forces to step up its campaign against the PKK in an area which was already unstable and sensitive before it started. Also, the PKK and the Syrian rebels are two totally different groups of people. The Turkish are supplying weapons to the rebels, almost as if it was payback for the decades of support the PKK received from Syria.  

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Syria provides even more instability on Turkey's border than they had already, and Turkey would have no interest in going to war against Syrian rebels if they were believed friendly to their Kurdish counterparts, who both share a very common goal of independence and a very common tactic of armed resistance and a very common geography as next door neighbors.

This isn't against the rebels but the Syrian government. The Turks for some reason want to intervene against the Turkish government and this is nothing more than sabre rattling and chest puffing on the behalf of Ergodan, although I am pleased that someone is willing to take a stand against the suffering and bloodshed in Syria.

What interests me, and shows how little you know about what is happening, is that you seem to think that the two movements want the same goal. This is incorrect because they want two very different goals. The PKK ultimately want a state specifically for Kurds based on lingustic, cultural and possibly ethnic differences with Turks. The Syrian rebels simply want Assad and his assorted family members out of government.

[Yamato]

MichaelW, on 26 March 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

So, by your definition, Turkey was defending itself from Cyrpus because the Cypriots permitted offshore oil drilling in its own territorial waters? And what exactly has the Syrian government done to make Ankara take these sorts of gestures?  



I am not a neocon nor a Zionist so please refrain from using such terms when engaging in debates with me. The latter is more reflective of you than me because I actually do the research and I know all there is



Way to state the obvious. Of course Turkey doesn't want an independent Kurdistan. No one apart from the Kurds do. And even then, most Kurds simply want to have cultural recognition that they have been denied for centuries and only recently are starting to gain.

Also, I'm starting to get sick and tired of the same spiel you put out when talking about the Middle East. For one thing, the Iraq War served as a casus belli for the Turkish Armed Forces to step up its campaign against the PKK in an area which was already unstable and sensitive before it started. Also, the PKK and the Syrian rebels are two totally different groups of people. The Turkish are supplying weapons to the rebels, almost as if it was payback for the decades of support the PKK received from Syria.  



This isn't against the rebels but the Syrian government. The Turks for some reason want to intervene against the Turkish government and this is nothing more than sabre rattling and chest puffing on the behalf of Ergodan, although I am pleased that someone is willing to take a stand against the suffering and bloodshed in Syria.

What interests me, and shows how little you know about what is happening, is that you seem to think that the two movements want the same goal. This is incorrect because they want two very different goals. The PKK ultimately want a state specifically for Kurds based on lingustic, cultural and possibly ethnic differences with Turks. The Syrian rebels simply want Assad and his assorted family members out of government.

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So, by your definition, Turkey was defending itself from Cyrpus because the Cypriots permitted offshore oil drilling in its own territorial waters?

No.

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And what exactly has the Syrian government done to make Ankara take these sorts of gestures?  

Slaughtering its own people.

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I am not a neocon nor a Zionist so please refrain from using such terms when engaging in debates with me. The latter is more reflective of you than me because I actually do the research and I know all there is

You are not a Zionist because...?  

You "know all there is"?   The curse of the young.

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Way to state the obvious. Of course Turkey doesn't want an independent Kurdistan. No one apart from the Kurds do. And even then, most Kurds simply want to have cultural recognition that they have been denied for centuries and only recently are starting to gain.

If Saddam Hussein was such a bad guy it would have been just as obvious for the unschooled war monger to think that Turkey didn't want Saddam Hussein, of course.  If Kurds simply want to have cultural recognition that they have been denied for centuries, why don't you want that?   It looks arrogant and naive for you to once again think you speak for everyone by making claims about "no one".

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Also, I'm starting to get sick and tired of the same spiel you put out when talking about the Middle East. For one thing, the Iraq War served as a casus belli for the Turkish Armed Forces to step up its campaign against the PKK in an area which was already unstable and sensitive before it started. Also, the PKK and the Syrian rebels are two totally different groups of people. The Turkish are supplying weapons to the rebels, almost as if it was payback for the decades of support the PKK received from Syria.

You're sick and tired of being corrected.  What did I say that meant the Iraq war wasn't a casus belli for Turkey to step up against the PKK?  "Totally different groups of people" can have similar interests, similar tactics, similar goals, and similar cultural heritage.  You stand corrected with every reply you mutter.  There are Kurds in Syria.

Quote

This isn't against the rebels but the Syrian government. The Turks for some reason want to intervene against the Turkish government and this is nothing more than sabre rattling and chest puffing on the behalf of Ergodan, although I am pleased that someone is willing to take a stand against the suffering and bloodshed in Syria.

What interests me, and shows how little you know about what is happening, is that you seem to think that the two movements want the same goal. This is incorrect because they want two very different goals. The PKK ultimately want a state specifically for Kurds based on lingustic, cultural and possibly ethnic differences with Turks. The Syrian rebels simply want Assad and his assorted family members out of government.

You're pleased at chest puffing?  Whoop de doo.  I have roots in Turkey.  What do you have?  What interests you is that there was nothing incorrect in what I just said.  You can add irrelevant and incorrect statements around what I say so to pretend something I said wasn't accurate.  But that will require you to put words in my mouth and start your typical disingenuous spin cycle.  You rely on internet snippets that you think allows you to act like a know-it-all about everything.  But you're wrong with virtually every point you make.  Both groups want independence from the ruling regimes they live under.  The goals are thus the same.  If you need equivalence before you compare, you're incapable of comparison.

[The New Richard Nixon]

Not really Syrian rebels want to be ridden of their own president. Kurd's don't have their own president and I don't see any Kurds supporting Turkey, so they are not the same.

[Corp]

The creation of an independent state and the removal of a leader are two very different things. I haven't heard of the Syrian rebels wanting to break off parts of Syria to form a new nation.

[MichaelW]

Yamato, on 26 March 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Slaughtering its own people.

Finally, a valid answer. I was expecting you to say "nothing".

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You are not a Zionist because...?  

Because I am neither Jewish. There are Jewish people in far flung parts of my family, but that's about it.

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You "know all there is"?   The curse of the young.

I have a habit of not finishing a scentence. But in saying that, you appear to think you know more when you have proven again that you don't.

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If Saddam Hussein was such a bad guy it would have been just as obvious for the unschooled war monger to think that Turkey didn't want Saddam Hussein, of course.  If Kurds simply want to have cultural recognition that they have been denied for centuries, why don't you want that?   It looks arrogant and naive for you to once again think you speak for everyone by making claims about "no one".

And this has to do with Saddam Hussein how? Iraq was an excuse for Turkey to up the ante against the PKK militarily. I fully support the moves Ankara has made to bring the Kurdish language and culture into mainstream day-to-day life in the provinces were Kurds for a majority of the population.

It looks arrogant and naive (as well as hypocritical) to speak for other people Yam. Nowhere did I say I didn't support the Kurdish wishes of cultural and linguistic recognition in Turkey.

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You're sick and tired of being corrected.

You're speaking on my behalf again Yam. Am I? Because I'm not tired nor being corrected. Pity you can't see that.

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What did I say that meant the Iraq war wasn't a casus belli for Turkey to step up against the PKK?  "Totally different groups of people" can have similar interests, similar tactics, similar goals, and similar cultural heritage.  You stand corrected with every reply you mutter.  There are Kurds in Syria.

And therefore the Syrian rebels want exactly the same goals as the PKK operating in Turkey? Despite the fact that Arabs comprise the absolute majority of combatants and the fact that the Syrian government actually supported the PKK?

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You're pleased at chest puffing?

Depends on who is committing it and who it directed against. If it was Turkey against Cyprus, it is bad. If it is Turkey against Syria it is good.

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Whoop de doo.  I have roots in Turkey.  What do you have?

I have roots in the Netherlands.

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What interests you is that there was nothing incorrect in what I just said.

Well if there was anything incorrect about what you have said, we wouldn't be having this debate.

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But you're wrong with virtually every point you make.

According to you. And that counts for pretty much nothing whatsoever.

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Both groups want independence from the ruling regimes they live under.  The goals are thus the same.

The Syrian rebels want to get rid of Assad. The PKK wants a spearate state for Kurds. How different can these two goals be? The removal of a tyrant and the creation of a spearate, ethnically based nationstate are two totally different goals. Everyone can see this but you.