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Israel Too Small to Last Even One Week of War


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#46    Yamato

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:33 PM

View Postand then, on 22 March 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

Hell, Yam, you may be right.  But I don't think so. The Israeli's, with the exception of the last two dances with the Hamas and Hizballah, have done some pretty inventive and unsusupected things in their conflicts.  From what little info leaked out I recall that the Syrians never even knew they were being attacked until it was too late.  They had roughly the same air defense doctrine and equipment from the Russians as Iran now does.  Their "secret" reactor was a smoking hole before their radars even told them there was a problem.  Iran does have better systems but I wouldn't rely too much on those.  Unfortunately their almost certainly be Israeli losses if they have to attack.  But Parsip is correct about the amount of damage that can be inflicted.  And Iran will NOT massively retaliate.  They just won't do it.  If they do they invite an American response that destabilizes their regime.  But they still could come out smelling of roses politically.  Once they can cry victimhood they get the sanctions dropped and start to rebuild...  It's a damned mess and only gets worse if Iran decides to actually assemble a weapon.  It's foolishness to assume at this point that that is not their goal.  
Iran will probably not be able to resist some terror strikes in the region but they won't want to leave obvious fingerprints.  
I STILL think Syria will be the spark that sets the region on fire though.

The Israelis have a history of optimism.  Remember '47,'56,'67',73,'82?
The Middle East is always a mess, that's why many of us need to figure out what Reagan really thought about it and emulate him instead of listening to these neocon Republicans who can't stop making up lies about Reagan citing a fantasy President that never existed.

I see no good reason why Iran would have ever stopped building or how their facilities aren't spread out over many locations we don't even know about.  

Syria should be at war with Israel right now due to Israel starting a war on them.  By our standards and what we'd do to any country that bombed us, Syria is unpatriotic, pacifist, cowardly, and treasonous not to counterattack Israel for its aggression.  A surprise attack on one site in Syria has nothing in common with these fantasy strikes on Iran which would let us ignore the difficulties I've laid out on this thread.  Unless we're all for Israel being foolish.  Right now I'm sure Israel is calculating the probability of the US defending its sorry rear after it foolishly escalated the threat against itself with these lustful attacks on Iran.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#47    and then

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:40 PM

View PostYamato, on 22 March 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Israel needs the US; that's the point.  It needs the US politically, militarily, and logistically.

Israeli jets are 1970s technology.  An F-4E Phantom is perfectly capable of running down and destroying an F-15 or F-16L especially when they don't have fuel to fight.  Hauling fantasy payloads across fantasy ranges and ignoring every glaringly obvious obstacle to having any manner of success makes these missions impossible.  If Israel is imprudent and wants to threaten their own people to no good effect, actually striking Iran would be a good way to do it.  Otherwise the usual saber rattling and war mongering trying to get the US involved is smart politics when you're an Israeli bureaucrat.  Israel can defend itself but what it can't do is strike Iran and expect the resulting hardening of Iran's resolve to play out in its favor.  If Israel strikes Iran, Iran probably will develop the bomb eventually.

If Israel expands its tanker fleet of elderly 707s, if it produces large numbers of 500lb bunker busters and carries a disproportionate amount of external fuel to the target and back, if it gets clearance to fly over Iraqi airspace, if it is capable of attacking with surprise, and if, if and if...then a small amount of damage to Iranian nuclear facilities could hypothetically be done. Unfortunately for the kool aid drinkers it does not have these capabilities at this time so fantasize faster with that right hand.  If anyone's happy with a temporary delay in Iran's legal nuclear program it has the right to pursue together with a long term buttressing and acceleration of it, then Israel won't repeat these strikes again, and again, and again, and again to be any manner of meaningful over time.
Iraq has no air defense and at best could hinder the strike by informing Iran a few minutes before the bombs started falling.  If Israel is bluffing on this strike then so be it.  The fact is that they don't NEED to be able to finish the job.  Once it begins all of Uncle Sam's toys will come into play with the exception of the really big ones.  These strikes would take days.  Maybe weeks.  At the end of that time the only infrastructure Iran would have would be what we chose to leave them.  Fortunately for the US and Israel people like you  don't yet have ascendency.  What will happen, will happen.  Syria is the place to watch.  Iran will not attack Israel except in small mean ways like murdering school children or families on holiday.  But when they send their proxies in... Israel may just shake up the game.

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#48    MichaelW

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:24 PM

View PostYamato, on 22 March 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

LOL you're dreaming the amazing dream.  I've never seen you as one to know about military issues.  Are you even serving?  You're the perfect age to do so.

I did consider it actually. But I'm not fit enough for active service, although I am quite the sharpshooter. Both my brother, my cousin and one of my friends also want to or have considered serving in the Navy and Army (the RNZAF has nothing going for it) and my father has served in the Territorials, so, not forntline service. And even if I did, the chances of serving in Afghanistan would be slim, seeing as we're beginning the handover process in Bamiyan Province. I'd probably end up in the Solomons or East Timor.  

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Firstly, Israel needing to rent B-52s obviously implied they don't have any, so why are you telling me that?


I assumed that you assumed they had them.

Quote

Secondly, they're striking Iranian SAM sites with airstrikes too?

It was a suggestion. Although with the type of missiles the Israelis, these would be irrelevant.  

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You're going to have so many targets to hit and so many bombs required to hit them with there won't be much left to carry out the fantasy mission of destroying the out-of-range nuclear sites with the magic weapons Israel doesn't even have.

Not with electronic countermeasures.

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The element of surprise will be gone with the wind too, and having Iranian interceptors in your face a thousand miles from home with no fuel to fight is so laughable and ludicrous only the unschooled naive who believe what they hear on TV would believe it.


Please. Any aircraft the IRIAF is outdated and verging on the edge of obsolecence. Hell, even the Emirati Air Force or the RSAF would have the same chances of penetrating Iranian

Quote

If the most important sites are protected with modern systems then that makes my point for me as well.  The strikes are meaningless when the valuable targets are protected.  And the valuable targets are protected by so many layers of protection, it's a kool aid picnic hearing you self-proclaimed military experts yammer on about how easy it is.

The systems, however, are few in number. That was my point.  

Quote

As for your claims about the quantity and quality of Iranian air defenses, provide the source you have that verifies what you claim.  As for your claims about Israeli submarines and what they will or would do to Iran, provide your source please.

As you wish. The IRIAF uses the following aircraft as air superiority fighters:

  • Grumman F-14A "Tomcat": 79 aircraft received in 1976. The F-14A is the basic first model which the Iranians have not uprgaded.
  • Dassault Mirage F1: Probably the most competent aircraft in the air superiority role the Iranians have. However, these are ex-Iraqi aircraft which were export variants.
  • Mikoyan-Gruevich MiG-29C/UB: Probably one of the training models used in the IRIAF, which as no radar.

Then they have the following for fighter aircraft:
  • McDonnell-Douglas F4D/E Phantom II: Basic versions which entered service in the 1960's. Not upgraded.  
  • Northrop F-5A/B/E Tiger: A mix of variants here with some trainers and some original aircraft from the 1960's. Some may have been upgraded to have radar or more modern radar systems.
  • HESA Saeqeh: Developed from Northrop F-5 Tiger. Iran claims it is like the F/A-18 Hornet, although this claim is dubious simply due to the size and constraints of the original F-5 Tiger.  

And those are the fighters. Iran also posesses a few outdated interceptor aircraft from China.

And now for the anti-air systems:
  • MIM-23 Hawk: Basic missile MIM-23A variant operated by Iranian air defences. Not upgraded.  
  • SA-15 "Tor-M1": One of the more competent systems the Iranian air defence network fields. 29 launchers in service.  
  • SA-5/S-200: Variants operated not known. May be more basic versions.  
  • SA-2/HQ-2: Fairly basic and outdated system in use. Easily countered by more modern electronic countermeasures.
  • SA-6: Reports of eight systems transferred in the late 1990's. Status is unknown.
  • HQ-7: Probably capable Chinese SAM system.
  • RBS-70: Swedish MANPADS system.
  • SA-7: Soviet MANPADS system.
  • SA-18: Soviet MANPADS system.

That's pretty much it. Now for the Israeli Navy, which operates three Dolphin-class submarines which are equipped with variants of the Rafael Popeye missile, which the USAF uses to equip its B-52H heavy bombers. The Popeye is also compatible with fighter bombers, making it suitable for air missions flown by the aircraft in service with the IAF.

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#49    Yamato

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:18 AM

View Postand then, on 22 March 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Iraq has no air defense and at best could hinder the strike by informing Iran a few minutes before the bombs started falling.  If Israel is bluffing on this strike then so be it.  The fact is that they don't NEED to be able to finish the job.  Once it begins all of Uncle Sam's toys will come into play with the exception of the really big ones.  These strikes would take days.  Maybe weeks.  At the end of that time the only infrastructure Iran would have would be what we chose to leave them.  Fortunately for the US and Israel people like you  don't yet have ascendency.  What will happen, will happen.  Syria is the place to watch.  Iran will not attack Israel except in small mean ways like murdering school children or families on holiday.  But when they send their proxies in... Israel may just shake up the game.
Air defense is what would allow Iraq to inform Iran in the first place.  Your cart blanch acceptance of the US getting dragged into another Zionist bloodbath is disgusting.  Israel is abject impotent to act on its own.  If it didn't have the US to come to its rescue after it kicks up a hornets nest of anger against it across the region its mistake will be even bigger than I said it is.  If Israel wants war without end that dumba$$ Americans who support it will wind up having to pay and bleed for, this kind of baseless idiocy on display in this reply would accomplish that.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#50    and then

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:42 AM

View PostYamato, on 23 March 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

Air defense is what would allow Iraq to inform Iran in the first place.  Your cart blanch acceptance of the US getting dragged into another Zionist bloodbath is disgusting.  Israel is abject impotent to act on its own.  If it didn't have the US to come to its rescue after it kicks up a hornets nest of anger against it across the region its mistake will be even bigger than I said it is.  If Israel wants war without end that dumba$$ Americans who support it will wind up having to pay and bleed for, this kind of baseless idiocy on display in this reply would accomplish that.

No, Yam, actually RADAR would inform them, if it isn't being passively jammed somehow.  While radar is a vital component of air defense it hardly is the totality of it.
Roughly more than half would support helping Israel  in such a scenario.  I'm sure they all fall into your definition of mouth breathing, one eyebrow types but fortunately you don't get to decide.  Don't you have some RP sites to visit?  Have a cool drink and relax, Yam.  The good news is that the world doesn't end if Iran gets mouth punched by us or Israel.  Not sure the same could be said if RP actually got elected :w00t:

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#51    Yamato

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:19 AM



Edited by Yamato, 23 March 2012 - 01:23 AM.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#52    Yamato

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:22 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 22 March 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

I did consider it actually. But I'm not fit enough for active service, although I am quite the sharpshooter. Both my brother, my cousin and one of my friends also want to or have considered serving in the Navy and Army (the RNZAF has nothing going for it) and my father has served in the Territorials, so, not forntline service. And even if I did, the chances of serving in Afghanistan would be slim, seeing as we're beginning the handover process in Bamiyan Province. I'd probably end up in the Solomons or East Timor.  



I assumed that you assumed they had them.



It was a suggestion. Although with the type of missiles the Israelis, these would be irrelevant.  



Not with electronic countermeasures.



Please. Any aircraft the IRIAF is outdated and verging on the edge of obsolecence. Hell, even the Emirati Air Force or the RSAF would have the same chances of penetrating Iranian



The systems, however, are few in number. That was my point.  



As you wish. The IRIAF uses the following aircraft as air superiority fighters:

  • Grumman F-14A "Tomcat": 79 aircraft received in 1976. The F-14A is the basic first model which the Iranians have not uprgaded.
  • Dassault Mirage F1: Probably the most competent aircraft in the air superiority role the Iranians have. However, these are ex-Iraqi aircraft which were export variants.
  • Mikoyan-Gruevich MiG-29C/UB: Probably one of the training models used in the IRIAF, which as no radar.

Then they have the following for fighter aircraft:
  • McDonnell-Douglas F4D/E Phantom II: Basic versions which entered service in the 1960's. Not upgraded.  
  • Northrop F-5A/B/E Tiger: A mix of variants here with some trainers and some original aircraft from the 1960's. Some may have been upgraded to have radar or more modern radar systems.
  • HESA Saeqeh: Developed from Northrop F-5 Tiger. Iran claims it is like the F/A-18 Hornet, although this claim is dubious simply due to the size and constraints of the original F-5 Tiger.  

And those are the fighters. Iran also posesses a few outdated interceptor aircraft from China.

And now for the anti-air systems:
  • MIM-23 Hawk: Basic missile MIM-23A variant operated by Iranian air defences. Not upgraded.  
  • SA-15 "Tor-M1": One of the more competent systems the Iranian air defence network fields. 29 launchers in service.  
  • SA-5/S-200: Variants operated not known. May be more basic versions.  
  • SA-2/HQ-2: Fairly basic and outdated system in use. Easily countered by more modern electronic countermeasures.
  • SA-6: Reports of eight systems transferred in the late 1990's. Status is unknown.
  • HQ-7: Probably capable Chinese SAM system.
  • RBS-70: Swedish MANPADS system.
  • SA-7: Soviet MANPADS system.
  • SA-18: Soviet MANPADS system.



I did consider it actually. But I'm not fit enough for active service, although I am quite the sharpshooter. Both my brother, my cousin and one of my friends also want to or have considered serving in the Navy and Army (the RNZAF has nothing going for it) and my father has served in the Territorials, so, not forntline service. And even if I did, the chances of serving in Afghanistan would be slim, seeing as we're beginning the handover process in Bamiyan Province. I'd probably end up in the Solomons or East Timor.


Not fit enough?  So get fit enough.  That's what boot camp is for incidentally.   Someone else making you go to war would be a refreshing change to all that agreement from you in making someone else.


I assumed that you assumed they had them.

And you should have assumed the opposite based on what you replied to.

Not with electronic countermeasures.

Now you're spinning it both ways showing you don't know what's going to happen.



Please. Any aircraft the IRIAF is outdated and verging on the edge of obsolecence.


Nonsense.  The air power in these countries is dated similarly and comparable.


The systems, however, are few in number. That was my point.

Yet you've provided nothing about numbers.


That's pretty much it.

Again you make my point.  A much more potent inventory (quantities?) putting an earlier claim of "SA-5s" to shame but not surprisingly you weren't interested in correcting that claim with the information you listed here.  I'm sorry the logistical difficulties are too significant to take your well wishing seriously, not even considering the political obstacles to this scenario which will defend Iran all by themselves.  Israeli aircraft will be extremely vulnerable to the conflagration of defenses it will have to deal with.  It will be facing multiple threats at all times and will be sitting ducks in a dogfight.  If Israel attacks with its submarines in advance, it could blunt the air defenses of Iran with cruise missile strikes hitting stationary targets, but this is yet another supposition thrown onto a stack of other suppositions that already collapsed.

Unfortunately, Israel doesn't have the capability to attack Iranian nuclear facilities without the political, logistical, and military help from the US.  Netanyahu knows this and that's why he's been desperately trying to get our war dander up for years with all his nonsensical mongering.  

For instance:


Well it's 1941 now by Netanyahu's broken clock and Iran hasn't gotten its Nazi mojo on yet.  The US and the rest of NATO would have been at war with Israel if countries actually took their treaties seriously.  I'm not suggesting war with Israel, I'm suggesting cutting the umbilical cord of that terroristic welfare state once and for all.  In fact, citizens from New Zealand ought to pony up some money for the Zionist regime for once.  If you're not going to join the military then stay in school if you're even in school; there's a lot to learn.  You should be humbled by what you don't know before you act so petulantly confident in what you think you do.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#53    Parsip

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:32 AM

View PostYamato, on 22 March 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

I see absolutely no evidence that suggests F-16s or F-15s are invulnerable to Iranian air power or air defenses.  If you think they're limited to SA-5s you need to do homework.
And you don't know what Israel would use nor does anyone else.  But they don't think about that, they just think right over it because they're too intellectually lazy not to believe the nonsense they're told 500 times on TV.

Invulnerable? No, sir, I didn't say it would be a piece of cake; just doable. Israel isn't very militarily powerful, but their air force is powerful enough for such an operation.


#54    MichaelW

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:49 AM

View PostYamato, on 23 March 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Not fit enough?  So get fit enough.  That's what boot camp is for incidentally.   Someone else making you go to war would be a refreshing change to all that agreement from you in making someone else.

Why? I don't want to go to Afghanistan because someone thinks it would be fun to continue the war there.

Quote

Now you're spinning it both ways showing you don't know what's going to happen.


So you've magically become a psychic? Maybe you should spread that pixy dust of yours over your favourite politicians like Ahmadinejad to try and bring the regime to reason. But we all know miracles don't happen.

Quote

Nonsense.  The air power in these countries is dated similarly and comparable.

No it is not comparable. This is where your argument falls. Israel operates aircraft with modern avionics, electronic countermeasures and other such equipment which make the aircraft much more capable. Israel has the wealth to modernise its aircraft with the latest avionics and fire systems in order to make their aircraft perform as good as if not better than the latest fighter/multi-role aircraft entering service.

Iran doesn't have the allies nor the wealth to upgrade it's aircraft with the systems required to bring them inline with modern combat aircraft. All aircraft operated by Iran are outmoded because they don't have the same equipment as those operated by Israel or even the UAE or Saudi Arabia.

If you think that the aircraft Israel fields and the aircraft Iran fields are similar, you don't have a leg to stand on. Anyone can tell you that the Iranian airforce may have more aircraft but, in this case, quantity does not make up for quality. Israel has the technological edge over Iran. This is not hard to understand.

Quote

Yet you've provided nothing about numbers.


I put a link to the inventory in my last post. Have a look at the numbers of aircraft.  

Quote

Again you make my point.  A much more potent inventory (quantities?) putting an earlier claim of "SA-5s" to shame but not surprisingly you weren't interested in correcting that claim with the information you listed here.  I'm sorry the logistical difficulties are too significant to take your well wishing seriously, not even considering the political obstacles to this scenario which will defend Iran all by themselves.  Israeli aircraft will be extremely vulnerable to the conflagration of defenses it will have to deal with.  It will be facing multiple threats at all times and will be sitting ducks in a dogfight.  If Israel attacks with its submarines in advance, it could blunt the air defenses of Iran with cruise missile strikes hitting stationary targets, but this is yet another supposition thrown onto a stack of other suppositions that already collapsed.

You severely overestimate the aerial defences of Iran. Again, these systems are basic and are fooled by most modern electronic countermeasures fitted to all but the most basic aircraft.

Quote

Unfortunately, Israel doesn't have the capability to attack Iranian nuclear facilities without the political, logistical, and military help from the US.  Netanyahu knows this and that's why he's been desperately trying to get our war dander up for years with all his nonsensical mongering.


The only thing that defeats Israel's wishes is the political ramifications it will face if it undergoes any military action against Iran. That's it.

Quote

For instance:


Well it's 1941 now by Netanyahu's broken clock and Iran hasn't gotten its Nazi mojo on yet.  The US and the rest of NATO would have been at war with Israel if countries actually took their treaties seriously.  I'm not suggesting war with Israel, I'm suggesting cutting the umbilical cord of that terroristic welfare state once and for all.  In fact, citizens from New Zealand ought to pony up some money for the Zionist regime for once.  If you're not going to join the military then stay in school if you're even in school; there's a lot to learn.  You should be humbled by what you don't know before you act so petulantly confident in what you think you do.

I'm sorry but your propoganda hasn't worn off on me. I've never taken anything you said seriously because I know it's complete and utter crap. And you've proven this by claiming that Israeli operated aircraft and Iranian operated aircraft are comparable. They are not. That is a fact.

Mate, I know what I'm talking about. You seem to think you do but you have made it embarassingly clear you don't.

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#55    jbondo

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:39 PM

Aside from the USA, Israel is the finest air attack country on the planet. Their pilots are the best in the world and they operate with equipment that is on par or not far off US technology.

Once the sorties began, Israel wouldn't stop until they were completely satisfied or until we stopped them. Ready or not, Iran knows they would be hard pressed to fend off an attack.

Think I'm dreaming? I'd bank on it.

Now, the political aspect of it changes everything. However, Israel is hot tempered and they tend to act without warning. Do I see it happening, no. Could it happen? You bet.

The US has always pledged to back Israel up...at least until Obama came to power. That said, I can't see Obama going against one of our closest allies as it would be political suicide for his reelection bid.


#56    MichaelW

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:59 PM

View PostYamato, on 22 March 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Syria should be at war with Israel right now due to Israel starting a war on them.

They are. Syria never signed a peace agreement.

Quote

Syria is unpatriotic, pacifist, cowardly, and treasonous not to counterattack Israel for its aggression.
  

This is the funniest thing you have said yet. You want to say that to the face of one of our Syrian members? Do you want to create more bloodshed and suffering in the Middle East? The peace they have is the best thing for them.

Do try to keep some form of credibilty here Yam. You're loosing it, fast.

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#57    simplybill

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:21 AM

There is another side to the Israel/Iran situation that isn't being talked about: Israel is currently in the position of being the Peacekeeper of the Middle East.
Neither the Saudi Arabian Salafists nor the Hashemite Arab Sunni Jordanians want a nuclear-armed Persian Shi'a Iran muscling in on their territory. Recall that during the Iran-Iraq War, the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia initially bankrolled Saddam Hussein.
Iran and Ahmadinejad have been rattling their sabers, but until now there has been a sort of military equilibrium, or standoff, keeping everyone in line. With the Allied withdrawal from Iraq, Saudi Arabia is again vulnerable to pressure from a radicalized Iran taking advantage of a weakened Iraqi military.
Israel's commitment to defending itself at all costs (including the possibilty of nuclear retaliation) has helped to keep a lid on things for a few decades now. An Israeli preemptive attack on Iran's nuclear capabilities would likely cause the majority of the Middle East to breathe a sigh of relief, while letting them maintain the facade of Islamic solidarity without getting their hands dirty.

Edited by simplybill, 24 March 2012 - 04:26 AM.

Every warrior is happy when his enemies flee before him, but much more blessed is the man to whom his fiercest enemies can come with confidence, knowing beforehand they will be received with love.
Richard Wurmbrand in Reaching Toward the Heights.

#58    spud the mackem

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:21 PM

View PostSamDavies, on 19 March 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

and then, you say you believe in the Bible prophecies. Well, according to Dan 11: 40-43 Israel (the land of Decoration?) is invaded and 'stumbled' in the 'last days'. Edom, Moab and Ammon (Jodan, Lebanon) and the lands around (Iraq, Iran, Libya and Ethiopia and Egypt) escape and/or survive. Then in the last chaper, Daniel 12, there is no mentin whatsoever that literal Israel is 'saved' along with a disturbing joined faction of Christian Zionists (forbid if the present Israeli government and so called 'Christian' countries represent the 'meek' that will inherit the earth, IMO).

No, it is those who love their fellow man who do not get involved with politics and wars who are meek. meek is not weakness. It is far harder not to tow the line into destruction than refuse to kill another human or become filled with patriotic intoxication. Earthly government/s do not become rulers after WWIII according to the bible and anyone who does believe in the prophecies within. ALL human governments are taken away by Michael, I thought you recognised this, not by Israel or any human organisation or government.

It never ceases to amaze me how anyone can say Israel still has God's favour if they read the book of Hosea and accept that the Nation of Israel caused only grief and anger to God, and still does, IMO. That also in the book of Daniel there is no mention of Israel ruling supreme at the end of the last days or anywhere else in the Bible.

Christians for some unknown reason to me keep on about the coming of the Messiah but still look to human governments for leadership :unsure2:  :blink: . That they are  sent by God when all these governments do is control or kill or both. God did not want Israel to be lead by a King in the first place and has vowed to remove such leader/s on his day of anger. So the Jews against Zionism have it right when they say voting for a leader for Israel is againt God :devil: . Hosea 13:11. They accept the Jewish people rebelled and were taken into perminant exile till their 'Messiah' returns, of which he has not. Till then NO land belongs to any Jew and definitely no government of Israel is to be set up or kept in place. Hosea makes it very clear that any continued disloyalty toward God will result in God disowning Israel totally. And those who were not his people (anyone meek and obedient) will become his people.

Show me the scriptures relating to the last days where Israel rules and annihalates all the countries surrounding it. There isn't any.

It could be said that according to the Bible, the Jew's own God is using the nations to eventually kill Israel's 'King' and bring judgement on a nation that has only bucked against their God, Hosea 13: 11 due to unfaithfullness. Again, the last chapter of the book as in Daniel.
       Whats the bible got to do with the current events ?,lets leave the bible out eh ! The Iranians love sabre rattling to stir up the population who rush out into the streets shouting and jumping about screaming jihad,they dont realise how ridiculous they look to civilised people but it keeps them happy,they re full of crap and wont attack Israel because they know Israel packs a superior punch,as has been proved...

(1) try your best, ............if that dont work.
(2) try your second best, ........if that dont work
(3) give up you aint gonna win

#59    odas

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:34 PM

View PostYamato, on 23 March 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:


I did consider it actually. But I'm not fit enough for active service, although I am quite the sharpshooter. Both my brother, my cousin and one of my friends also want to or have considered serving in the Navy and Army (the RNZAF has nothing going for it) and my father has served in the Territorials, so, not forntline service. And even if I did, the chances of serving in Afghanistan would be slim, seeing as we're beginning the handover process in Bamiyan Province. I'd probably end up in the Solomons or East Timor.


Not fit enough?  So get fit enough.  That's what boot camp is for incidentally.   Someone else making you go to war would be a refreshing change to all that agreement from you in making someone else.


I assumed that you assumed they had them.

And you should have assumed the opposite based on what you replied to.

Not with electronic countermeasures.

Now you're spinning it both ways showing you don't know what's going to happen.



Please. Any aircraft the IRIAF is outdated and verging on the edge of obsolecence.


Nonsense.  The air power in these countries is dated similarly and comparable.


The systems, however, are few in number. That was my point.

Yet you've provided nothing about numbers.


That's pretty much it.

Again you make my point.  A much more potent inventory (quantities?) putting an earlier claim of "SA-5s" to shame but not surprisingly you weren't interested in correcting that claim with the information you listed here.  I'm sorry the logistical difficulties are too significant to take your well wishing seriously, not even considering the political obstacles to this scenario which will defend Iran all by themselves.  Israeli aircraft will be extremely vulnerable to the conflagration of defenses it will have to deal with.  It will be facing multiple threats at all times and will be sitting ducks in a dogfight.  If Israel attacks with its submarines in advance, it could blunt the air defenses of Iran with cruise missile strikes hitting stationary targets, but this is yet another supposition thrown onto a stack of other suppositions that already collapsed.

Unfortunately, Israel doesn't have the capability to attack Iranian nuclear facilities without the political, logistical, and military help from the US.  Netanyahu knows this and that's why he's been desperately trying to get our war dander up for years with all his nonsensical mongering.  

For instance:


Well it's 1941 now by Netanyahu's broken clock and Iran hasn't gotten its Nazi mojo on yet.  The US and the rest of NATO would have been at war with Israel if countries actually took their treaties seriously.  I'm not suggesting war with Israel, I'm suggesting cutting the umbilical cord of that terroristic welfare state once and for all.  In fact, citizens from New Zealand ought to pony up some money for the Zionist regime for once.  If you're not going to join the military then stay in school if you're even in school; there's a lot to learn.  You should be humbled by what you don't know before you act so petulantly confident in what you think you do.

Yam, I remember a war not so long ago, when people, just like some of the members here, were warmonging, speculating, wasted big words, pretending they are generals, thinking they are tough......
And, when the war started they hide like mice in their holes and those who did not want the war in the first place fought and died.
After it was done the mice came cralling out of their holes and started bragging abot fictional battles they fought. Same here, same people.
War is no fun, man.


#60    bouncer

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:17 AM

View Postodas, on 24 March 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Yam, I remember a war not so long ago, when people, just like some of the members here, were warmonging, speculating, wasted big words, pretending they are generals, thinking they are tough......
And, when the war started they hide like mice in their holes and those who did not want the war in the first place fought and died.
After it was done the mice came cralling out of their holes and started bragging abot fictional battles they fought. Same here, same people.
War is no fun, man.

Ever wondered..what would happen, if every soldier in any war just laid down the guns and went back to base? Realising they're just pawns in a big chess game played out in govt offices?

What would happen then? And what would happen if no-one wanted to join the forces?

Would we be forced into it, like conscription in the old wars?

Like Muhammad Ali refusing to go Vietnam, saying,  "I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong" and "no Vietcong ever called me (slang version of negro)." And: "Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs?"

regardless of race, he makes a very, very valid point

Edited by bouncer, 25 March 2012 - 09:18 AM.





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