1360 replies to this topic

[Bavarian Raven]

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Babe Ruth, on 15 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:
No, that's just the way I'm betting sir.

But by his actions in stalking Martin, he displays the behavior of a predator.  

Or a guard dog??

[Babe Ruth]

An 'attack dog' would be a better description.

Technically, a guard dog is behind a fence, guarding an area.

[and then]

Babe Ruth, on 15 April 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

An 'attack dog' would be a better description.

Technically, a guard dog is behind a fence, guarding an area.

You know, Babe, if the evidence proves that Z lied and Martin didn't attack him before he fired then I'll be the first to admit that Z should go to jail for a very long time.  What about you?  If the evidence shows that Z was telling the truth will that satisfy you or does the fact that Z followed Martin trump all else?  Because I get the impression from you that THAT was the bottom line for you.  That Z doing what a neighborhood watcher does, was enough to make him guilty of murder.

[Leonardo]

and then, on 15 April 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

You know, Babe, if the evidence proves that Z lied and Martin didn't attack him before he fired then I'll be the first to admit that Z should go to jail for a very long time.  What about you?  If the evidence shows that Z was telling the truth will that satisfy you or does the fact that Z followed Martin trump all else?  Because I get the impression from you that THAT was the bottom line for you.  That Z doing what a neighborhood watcher does, was enough to make him guilty of murder.

What if Martin did attack him, but that attack was immediately after asking Zimmerman why he [Martin] was being followed and not receiving a reply? In that case, the SYG law would suggest Martin may have had reasonable grounds to take forceful action.

So, doesn't it rather hinge on Zimmerman's claim that he backed off and Martin followed him to his car, rather than who attacked who?

The only evidence, if it can be called that, that I can see which might make or break Zimmerman's testimony is where he and Martin were when the shooting took place. Because his entire defence rests on Martin using unlawful force (i.e. Martin's attack wasn't covered under SYG) - which would be much harder for Zimmerman to prove (and he has to prove it if his self-defence plea is to hold up) if the fight wasn't near Zimmerman's car.

Edited by Leonardo, 15 April 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[susieice]

lightly, on 15 April 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

SANFORD, Fla. — Last August, Wendy Dorival got a call about setting up a local neighborhood watch. As the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department here, she gets such calls regularly, and the city already had at least 10 active watch groups. So she thought nothing of this call, from George Zimmerman.
◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊
She set up a visit for the next month at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community that had been dealing with a string of burglaries. When 25 residents showed up, a decent turnout, she had the residents introduce themselves; after all, people join the groups to look out for each other. She then gave a PowerPoint presentation and distributed a handbook. As she always does, she emphasized what a neighborhood watch is — and what it is not.
◊ ◊ ◊ ◊
In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”
◊ ◊
Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
***
http://www.thegrio.c...rganization.php
When 28-year-old George Zimmerman was discovered by Sanford, Florida police standing over the body of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they accepted Zimmerman's claim that he killed in self-defense as a neighborhood watch captain. Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs' Association (NSA) -- the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch -- it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon.
"In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket," Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens' Crime Watch of Miami-Dade, told theGrio. "Every city and municipality has their own policies. Here in Miami-Dade we train people only to be the eyes and ears of their communities. Not to follow and most definitely not to carry a weapon."

We have Neighborhood Watch here which have close connections to the police department and also the Guardian Angels who I saw this weekend walking in larger groups than they used to. I wonder if people realize that because Zimmerman represented himself as a Watchman that this case could endanger others who are not allowed to be armed and may be felt to be fair game because they are no different. This was very irresponsible on Zimmerman's part.

[susieice]

DieChecker, on 15 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Or a guard dog??

I wouldn't want him guarding my neighborhood. He caused more problems than he did any good.

[and then]

Leonardo, on 15 April 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

What if Martin did attack him, but that attack was immediately after asking Zimmerman why he [Martin] was being followed and not receiving a reply? In that case, the SYG law would suggest Martin may have had reasonable grounds to take forceful action.

So, doesn't it rather hinge on Zimmerman's claim that he backed off and Martin followed him to his car, rather than who attacked who?

The only evidence, if it can be called that, that I can see which might make or break Zimmerman's testimony is where he and Martin were when the shooting took place. Because his entire defence rests on Martin using unlawful force (i.e. Martin's attack wasn't covered under SYG) - which would be much harder for Zimmerman to prove (and he has to prove it if his self-defence plea is to hold up) if the fight wasn't near Zimmerman's car.

The burden is definitely on Zimmerman since he initiated the contact between them.  But the way I understand the law (possibly poorly) is that no matter who initiates the fight, if a person engaged in such feels their life is threatened then they can use deadly force.  And this is why I keep saying the law is at fault for this bolloxed up mess.  I hope that because of the public nature of this case there are TV cameras allowed in the court room.  People should be able to see the evidence and understand the law more intimately.

[susieice]

http://news.yahoo.co...-043707411.html
A breakdown I found of the SYG law and it's possible application to the trial.

[DieChecker]

Babe Ruth, on 15 April 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

An 'attack dog' would be a better description.

Technically, a guard dog is behind a fence, guarding an area.

Or a gated community?

[susieice]

DieChecker, on 16 April 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

Or a gated community?

Wouldn't want him there either.
I've lived in a gated community and they usually have their own security personnel that patrol. You have to show a resident's card or have someone call the gate with your info to be allowed through. Then your state picture ID will work.

Edited by susieice, 16 April 2012 - 12:40 AM.

[DieChecker]

Leonardo, on 15 April 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

What if Martin did attack him, but that attack was immediately after asking Zimmerman why he [Martin] was being followed and not receiving a reply? In that case, the SYG law would suggest Martin may have had reasonable grounds to take forceful action.

How is talking to someone across, say 5 feet, imply unwarranted excessive force? You keep saying if Zimmerman confronted Martin, that SYG allowed violent action. But, I don't see where SYG gets involved where two people are only talking.

Why would Zimmerman jump Trayvon? I just don't see happening, as he knew the police were just minutes away. Also he did have a gun, and probably felt quite safe confronting Trayvon. I'm not saying he was right to do so, just that it makes no sense that Zimmerman was the one that started the fighting. He held the "high ground" so to speak.

If knocking someone down and beating the **** out of them is OK to do after someone will not give you a straight answer, then this nation is flipping doomed.

Edited by DieChecker, 16 April 2012 - 12:40 AM.

[DieChecker]

susieice, on 15 April 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

I wouldn't want him guarding my neighborhood. He caused more problems than he did any good.

That is based off one incident. That is very closed minded. What if Zimmerman had previously prevented two rapes and a stabbing and reported several burgleries? We have no idea what Zimmerman has done to benefit his community. We only know that he made one bad decision and that a horrible consiquence followed.

[susieice]

DieChecker, on 16 April 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

How is talking to someone across, say 5 feet, imply unwarranted excessive force? You keep saying if Zimmerman confronted Martin, that SYG allowed violent action. But, I don't see where SYG gets involved where two people are only talking.

Why would Zimmerman jump Trayvon? I just don't see happening, as he knew the police were just minutes away. Also he did have a gun, and probably felt quite safe confronting Trayvon. I'm not saying he was right to do so, just that it makes no sense that Zimmerman was the one that started the fighting. He held the "high ground" so to speak.

If knocking someone down and beating the **** out of them is OK to do after someone will not give you a straight answer, then this nation is flipping doomed.

Consider a kid who was already scared being followed by someone he didn't know, saw the gun and was even more scared. Zimmerman had a mouth on him and not much regard as to listening to authority. He was that in his own right with an attitude to boot. Who knows what he said to the kid after the call was cut off. I don't believe a 17yr old could beat someone like that in a matter of seconds, and this timeline will come down to seconds.

[DieChecker]

and then, on 15 April 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

But the way I understand the law (possibly poorly) is that no matter who initiates the fight, if a person engaged in such feels their life is threatened then they can use deadly force.  And this is why I keep saying the law is at fault for this bolloxed up mess.  

I agree. And I hope the law is revisited in the Florida Legislature.

I wonder if cases of SYG in Florida have increased due to this Trayvon killing? You'd think that if SYG works as a defense idiots everywhere would be using it to kill their enemies and getting back at people on their Grudge Lists.

[susieice]

DieChecker, on 16 April 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

I agree. And I hope the law is revisited in the Florida Legislature.

I wonder if cases of SYG in Florida have increased due to this Trayvon killing? You'd think that if SYG works as a defense idiots everywhere would be using it to kill their enemies and getting back at people on their Grudge Lists.

Exactly. Anyone in a fight that's losing seems to be able to shoot and kill the person that their fighting with. Up here this is known as a free for all. You wouldn't find me anywhere near a bar down there and sporting events are another common place where fights can break out.