61 replies to this topic

[QuiteContrary]

Beckys_Mom, on 18 March 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

You do not know the bible that well ... do you?

Matthew 7:1-5
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgement.

A whole string of bible parts that say - Do not go around judging anyone.

A long  list of them in here -->   http://www.openbible.../judging_others   Let he who is without sin  cast the 1st stone..  <-- words of Jesus ..  

Why is judging seen as wrong? ..Because it is rude.. people who judge others on how to be something  or how to live..  are not exactly looking at themselves.. Do not sit there trying to say you are perfect and you do all right.. No you do not.. You have no room to judge anyone


It means to help each other as brother and sister,. It doesn't mean dictate and judge them...Giving one advice and offering help   is not judging..

James 4.11  - Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Now telling them to go and criticize and judge their brothers.. is  a contradiction...But non surprising

I am sorry but your snippets do not negate what i said. You cannot pull out scripture phrases and tell me what they mean without the complete entire context they are written in. It is impossible.

Read the entire context; the entire book or letter as well as those previous. Know characters and backstory as in any book. Then supply your verses with explanations.

I already explained your first verse: Mtt 7:1-5 I can judge, but I will be judged in regard to the very same thing. It is a stern warning. Do you know why it was given?

I know the pull-out verses. They sound convincing enough. but they do not stand alone. Jesus was introducing god's people to the fact they can't please god thru the OT commandments, their spiritual leaders were hypocrites, and a lot more. He couldn't give every bit of information they needed in one speech- like say, the sermon on the mount.  It is all connected. It all has to be taken together. Why was jesus even on earth? What was his purpose?

What is each scripture referring to when it says not to judge? What is judgement? Who is the audience? Why is he bringing this up? Why do they need to hear it? It takes a lot of reading and asking questions, even if not to believe in jesus but to understand what the heck is going on. Please do not quote me websites. That is a hodge podge nightmare in it itself. You have to know- Are you quoting someone's hopes and preferences or the real deal.

I don't want to fight, though I am always rather bold and brash, that is me. I just get disgusted with religions' hypocrisy. One can debate christians all they want because they probably know quite a few. But a 1700 page written text requires reading it. And connecting all the dots. So you can give more than just a verse. And if you want to ignore the OT: Why? When jesus quotes it?

Wow! I don't think I am perfect, never have. Are you judging me? If not, please explain what it is then. No sarcasm intended.

Sorry, but I think you sound angry as hell and like you know it all too.

[QuiteContrary]

And please don't think I want you to swallow all I have to say. Heck no! Anyone would be foolish to.
Read and decide for yourself. But don't pull-out scripture you cannot defend in its (1700 page) entirety.

[TheNightOwl]

Beckys_Mom, on 18 March 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

You do not know the bible that well ... do you?

Matthew 7:1-5
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgement.

A whole string of bible parts that say - Do not go around judging anyone.

A long  list of them in here -->   http://www.openbible.../judging_others   Let he who is without sin  cast the 1st stone..  <-- words of Jesus ..  

Why is judging seen as wrong? ..Because it is rude.. people who judge others on how to be something  or how to live..  are not exactly looking at themselves.. Do not sit there trying to say you are perfect and you do all right.. No you do not.. You have no room to judge anyone


It means to help each other as brother and sister,. It doesn't mean dictate and judge them...Giving one advice and offering help   is not judging..

James 4.11  - Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Now telling them to go and criticize and judge their brothers.. is  a contradiction...But non surprising

I've always taken the "judge not" line, if looked at along with what is said around it, as an overall moral lesson (fix yourself before you try to fix others). I don't take it as an absolute command to be followed always. One can still tell someone that something they have done is wrong.

[Beckys_Mom]

QuiteContrary, on 18 March 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I am sorry but your snippets do not negate what i said. You cannot pull out scripture phrases and tell me what they mean without the complete entire context they are written in. It is impossible.

It clearly says do not judge your brothers or sisters...  Not if you are a sinner and cannot lead your life as perfect.. It doesnt need  any more explaining than that...

You took part of the bible that you claimed says to - > admonish each other, correct each other, sharpen each other, even kick some others out.  That means to help and give advice if you feel they need it... It doesn't mean you can judge others at will .... You have confused this with judging...

For each Christian , they are meat to have a personal relationship with the lord.. and by that is means perosnal to them.. It is their business how they lead their own worship...
The only one that can truly pass any real judgement is God himself..
I stand by all I post.. Thank you

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 18 March 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[IamsSon]

Cosmic Radiant, on 18 March 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Its simple, just follow the teachings of Jesus. So that should automatically eliminate the Old Testament because a lot of information exists that says the God of the Old Testament is not the same as the one Jesus teaches about.

Jesus taught that no one has seen "The Father" and also said he is "I am" both of these teachings indicate that not only is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament, but that all the people who saw or spoke to God in the Old Testament were speaking or looking at Jesus.

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The Old Testament and all it's stories are not "Christianity". I am not saying the OT is meaningless, because a lot of other religions are based off of it.

You're quite right, but the Old Testament shows us that any and all attempts to reach God or be close to God on our own efforts is useless.  However, I have to disagree, the Old Testament is quite important to Christianity.

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So when you think about it, Jesus just taught love and compassion for others, and many other positive things about life that everyone enjoys. Why then, do so many "christians" judge and condemn non believers? Why do they seem so fearful of enjoying life and doing whatever they want, as long as it doesn't harm another person? The Ten Commandments were not from Jesus. Do whatever you want in life, be free, be loving, and be happy. Christ teaches these things, so when you call yourself a "Christian", learn about it more so you can deserve that title.

Actually, Christ said He came to fulfill "The Law" which definitely includes the Ten Commandments.  Additionally, not everything Christ taught was all love and peace.  In fact He stated He came to divide.  That for His sake father would turn against son, mother would turn against daughter.  Additionally, Jesus did not say one could do what they wanted.  

Please provide the Scriptures where Jesus taught that one should do whatever you want in life?  That actually sounds more like what The Church of Satan teaches, not what Jesus taught at all.

[Beckys_Mom]

TheNightOwl, on 18 March 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I've always taken the "judge not" line, if looked at along with what is said around it, as an overall moral lesson (fix yourself before you try to fix others). I don't take it as an absolute command to be followed always. One can still tell someone that something they have done is wrong.

Jesus  said -  to sum up - Treat others how you wish to be treated...    So if you like to be judged by others.. then  go ahead and judge others ...But if you do not like it whne others judge you, then do not go around doing it to them...  That is easy to understand

If you are a sinner..and  lets face it, all Christians are sinners.. Then  it is not their place to judge others on sin...Not if they know they are sinners themselves

Advice should only be given IF and when it is asked for ... It is rude to throw advice  on to those that have not asked you for it

You say - One can tell someone if they have done wrong.. I agree.. but see  not if  they nit pick over   IE -  How to be a Christian.. like for example  If one Christian  thinks - You all need to attend a church at least once a week...If you do not, then I will judge you, and  claim you are not a true Chrisitan   <-- Weak and a pathetic attempt to judge  ...   Because Jesus does not say - Attend a church every week ..In fact the Sermon On the mount  is against praying in the streets  in temples  including churches  to be seen...He advises them to pray to the father in private ad they will be rewarded...  He calls those who pray in the streets and temples / churches  hypocrites..   But it begs the question --->  How many Christians  actually pay that any attention? ... And  How many will make up their own excuses and try and find a loophole around it?

Above is just a mere example... But over all.. If you are going to tell someone they are not follow Christ right.. then you have just passed judgement and unwanted judgement

WHY IS THIS?  -  Answer is -  Because for each Christian ,  they are meat to have a personal relationship with the lord.. and by that is means perosnal to them.. It is their business  how they lead their own worship...


The only one that can truly pass any real judgement is God himself..

[IamsSon]

Beckys_Mom, on 18 March 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

If you are a sinner..and  lets face it, all Christians are sinners.. Then  it is not their place to judge others on sin...Not if they know they are sinners themselves

Advice should only be given IF and when it is asked for ... It is rude to throw advice  on to those that have not asked you for it

You are quite correct, any "Christian" who doesn't understand that they are a sinner really can't be a Christian since Christianity is all about accepting God's gift of Salvation from what we justly deserve for our sins by grace, in other words a gift we did nothing to deserve and in fact, given because we could do nothing to deserve it.

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You say - One can tell someone if they have done wrong.. I agree.. but see  not if  they nit pick over   IE -  How to be a Christian.. like for example  If one Christian  thinks - You all need to attend a church at least once a week...If you do not, then I will judge you, and  claim you are not a true Chrisitan   <-- Weak and a pathetic attempt to judge  ...   Because Jesus does not say - Attend a church every week ..In fact the Sermon On the mount  is against praying in the streets  in temples  including churches  to be seen...He advises them to pray to the father in private ad they will be rewarded...  He calls those who pray in the streets and temples / churches  hypocrites..   But it begs the question --->  How many Christians  actually pay that any attention? ... And  How many will make up their own excuses and try and find a loophole around it?

Actually, given that Jesus Himself prayed in public, the context of the Sermon on the Mount can't simply be a condemnation of all public prayer.  What Jesus was addressing was those who pray--or do acts of contrition or acts of generosity--publicly to make themselves look pious and superior to others.

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Above is just a mere example... But over all.. If you are going to tell someone they are not follow Christ right.. then you have just passed judgement and unwanted judgement

Not necessarily.  If you see someone playing golf wrong and you tell them they are not doing it right, you are not judging them, you are pointing out the truth.  You don't even have to be a golf pro, or even a good golfer in order to be able to truthfully tell someone else they are not playing golf right.  

There most certainly are ways to either tell someone they are not playing golf well or that they are not actually practicing Biblical Christianity that are unnecessarily rude, condescending, hurtful or outright mean and wrong, but there are most certainly ways to do both in ways which are friendly, caring, and proper.

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WHY IS THIS?  -  Answer is -  Because for each Christian ,  they are meat to have a personal relationship with the lord.. and by that is means perosnal to them.. It is their business  how they lead their own worship...

To a point.  If someone is "worshiping" God by doing something which Biblically is recognized as sin and other Christians are aware of this, they have a duty, as loving brothers, to point this out.  

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The only one that can truly pass any real judgement is God himself..

[Beckys_Mom]

IamsSon, on 18 March 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Actually, given that Jesus Himself prayed in public, the context of the Sermon on the Mount can't simply be a condemnation of all public prayer.  What Jesus was addressing was those who pray--or do acts of contrition or acts of generosity--publicly to make themselves look pious and superior to others.

To sum up what Jesus meant -  Don't pray to be seen by others.. like you would in the streets and  in a Church / temple  ... But do it in private and God will reward you..   Because when you pray in private, you are showing God the father that the relationship you have with God is more sincere and special ..and not just as a front to be thought well of by others

To be realistic, when crowds of people attend Churches  or on the streets ..They are praying to be seen..To keep up appearances ..Jesus already met these sort of people in his day..it annoyed him..

Jesus  only said the Lords prayer in public..  in order to teach the pray to them...  He never stood day after day praying to be seen in public...    When Jesus usually addressed crowds  in public, it was teach them wisdom  and the word of God... But not to pray and be seen

There are Christians who will not want to see it this way, because they are so well used to going to churches and its all they know..  The Sermon On the Mount will either get ignored for that part  OR they will find  some other interpretation to get around it.. So they can feel better about what they do and how they do it

Truth is there is no other way to interpret what Jesus meant... I have read the Sermon  so many times over and over..  I cannot see any other way around it ...Sorry but that's how it is  

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  Not necessarily. If you see someone playing golf wrong and you tell them they are not doing it right, you are not judging them, you are pointing out the truth.          

No, I disagree..  Jesus doesn't dictate to anyone  how to worship  him.. All he asks  is -  Accept me and my gift... He doesn't  tell you how you should pray to him, read a bible..  ( well considering there was no such thing as a bible back then)... He doesn't say attend bible classes,  meetings.. He doesn't tell you any of that.....And this is what I am talking about ...Too many sit and judge others on what they do and HOW they do it...

Look at yourself and yourself only...If you have kids  then steer them right as you see fit.. But when it comes to other peoples personal faith and worship in Jesus.. that is their own business.. not yours or anyone else's... Example - If you do not like people telling you how to   IE - Read your bible.. then you should not feel it is ok to judge others on how to and what to do...

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   There most certainly are ways to either tell someone they are not playing golf well or that they are not actually practicing Biblical Christianity that are unnecessarily rude, condescending, hurtful or outright mean and wrong, but there are most certainly ways to do both in ways which are friendly, caring, and proper.                    

IAMS  Bible following is not a sport..  There is no rules to say how to do it... There are no rules on how one should follow God  when they hold a personal relationship... It is called a personal  relationship for a reason... This is what so many judgemental people fail miserably to recognise  

There is not a single Christian who follows that bible to the letter.. So they have no real room to judge anyone on how they should do it .....It is hypocritical ..

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   To a point. If someone is "worshiping" God by doing something which Biblically is recognized as sin and other Christians are aware of this, they have a duty, as loving brothers, to point this out.                       

I am afraid you are wrong on this too..    To explain why ..i'll break it into two parts...

1 - I am not talking about sinning, I am talking about personal relationships with Christ, that should only be up to the individual  who chooses to take this belief and worship on  in their own lives....

2 - No Christians  has a right to judge another Christians sins..  Why?  -  Because every last Christian alive or has ever been alive, are all sinners.. Not one Christian can say they are sin free..    So  throwing stones at glass houses is hypocritical  and wrong ...   As Jesus said - Let he who is WITHOUT sin, cast the 1st stone <-- So easy to understand..

It seems a lot of what Jesus says  gets greatly overlooked ....The only one  capable of judging  you all is God.. Not  the average Christian..   No point in agreeing with this line and still think it is only right to judge another Christians sin... It doesn't make sense and seems too ironic..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 19 March 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[Mr Walker]

I agree with BM up to a point. One should not judge anothers way of following god(or indeed in living a life the best they can), although one is obliged to point out when a person's life harms themslves, other individuals, or their society.

I chose christianity as a way of life that allowed me to live sanely along side a real, powerful, inderventionist deity in my life .And so I get to pick and chose a bit.

  Certainly, the exemplar /template of christ's life is my main priority. But christ  was a particularly spiritual man, and filled with a great deal of the holyspirit He taught a way of life but acknolwedged that not all could follow it  exactly as he did. He never asked people to give up their wealth, just their love/worship of it, because that attachment to it, made it hard to concentrate on the important things in life. But I also follow many of the wisdoms in the OT. I folow the dietary laws as much as i can because they are precisely the diet my cardiologist and dietician recommend as the most healthy. I dont drink smoke or take drugs because my body is a temple of god, in which god physically resides and exists.

Beside which when you deal with god every day you need a very clear head. I love my wife in the fashion described both in the somg of solomon and as jesus told me to, as my self. I treat others on biblical principles; the 3 greatest of which are; love yourself, Love others as you love yourself, and love god. I put them in that order because a person who does not really know what it means to love themselves, cannot properly love another, nor love god.

I live as god tells me to and in return god gives me the power and ability to live that life.
I folow the ten commandments in heart mind and deed as best I can,  from my love of god and my acceptance of his wisdoms.

The hardest part was giving up my slaves. They cried bitter tears, but I set them free. I told them they could always join, "work for the dole" and get govt support. They threatened me with action from the "slave union of australasia", but ethically i had to act as  I saw right.

Edited by Mr Walker, 19 March 2012 - 12:21 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Mr Walker, on 19 March 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

The hardest part was giving up my slaves. They cried bitter tears, but I set them free. I told them they could always join, "work for the dole" and get govt support. They threatened me with action from the "slave union of australasia", but ethically i had to act as  I saw right.

What is this... some sort of metaphor?  ..Or are you seriously referring to human beings  as your slaves for working for you?  ....

What  would you need...slaves for? And why call them slaves.. ?  Do you fancy yourself as someone in the OT ?
I set my slaves free  <-- Who are you now....Moses?  .....Who even talks like that any more?
I mean you claim to be a mere school teacher....Why the need for slaves?    

Joking aside here - I have never in al the years I have known you to talk about owning your own slaves... Not once.
. But now all of a sudden you did and  .. like Moses you set them free  lol

Goodness MW I sure hope you are just joking around  !!

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     "slave union of australasia"          

From the what now?  Link for this slave union ?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 19 March 2012 - 01:36 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Beckys_Mom, on 19 March 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

What is this... some sort of metaphor?  ..Or are you seriously referring to human beings  as your slaves for working for you?  ....

What  would you need...slaves for? And why call them slaves.. ?  Do you fancy yourself as someone in the OT ?
I set my slaves free  <-- Who are you now....Moses?  .....Who even talks like that any more?
I mean you claim to be a mere school teacher....Why the need for slaves?    

Joking aside here - I have never in al the years I have known you to talk about owning your own slaves... Not once.
. But now all of a sudden you did and  .. like Moses you set them free  lol

Goodness MW I sure hope you are just joking around  !!



From the what now?  Link for this slave union ?

Gotcha!   And I even put an "innocent smiley" in to give you an even chance. People always go on about the laws on slavery in the bible,  so I thought I'd end with how a good christian would give up his slaves in these modern times. I dont beat my wife any more either. (Or any less)

Ps I am home from work, sick with the flu, which is why im online, midday on monday. It must be getting late (or early) over in your part of the world.
Pps. If there were slaves in Australia you can bet they would be unionised.
I just had this "image" of a benevolent slave owner (me) who fed his slaves, clothed and housed them, and never made them work very hard (sort of like some of the relatives who have lived with us over the years) saying to them all, "You are free.)

And them turning on me because now they would have to work for a living and feed, house and clothe themselves.  The irony of it struck me as being as funny as people  who really try and use scripture about the treatment of slaves to condemn modern christians. Today the only way we "wage slaves" can free ourselves  is by accumulating capital or by going on the dole. (or if we are lucky enough and the govt doesnt keep raising the retirement age getting an age pension.)

Edited by Mr Walker, 19 March 2012 - 03:30 AM.

[Cosmic Radiant]

IamsSon, on 18 March 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

That actually sounds more like what The Church of Satan teaches, not what Jesus taught at all.

Yea sure why not. Call me a satanist. I could care less what people think of the way I view Christianity.


I am not dumb when it comes to the Bible. I know all about it, but I am not a traditional christian. I grew up that way but I have different views now and I don't feel as if the Bible is all that good. There are many ancient texts, and only a select few were chosen to make up the Bible. I am not a religious person at all, but I feel that Christ had a good message for all of humanity.

Is there anything wrong with my views seeing how I am not a fan of organized religion?

Some people say I remind them of jesus because of how non judging and nice I am to everyone. And then theres those people who are the complete opposite but they go to church every sunday. THEY are the ones who don't fully understand IMO. But I respect all views.


Just making a statement. I do not mean any harm.

Edited by Cosmic Radiant, 19 March 2012 - 03:57 AM.

[HavocWing]

Cosmic Radiant, on 19 March 2012 - 03:55 AM, said:

but I feel that Christ had a good message for all of humanity.

a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]

Ya, real good:

http://www.biblegate...-39&version=NIV

Edited by HavocWing, 19 March 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[Mr Walker]

HavocWing, on 19 March 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]

Ya, real good:

http://www.biblegate...-39&version=NIV

Ah c'mmon. You didnt need the bible (or the internet) to tell you that, did you? Think mother in laws, teenage children, exwives, or gina rinehart's family.

Edited by Mr Walker, 19 March 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

On the concept of Judging others I 100% agree that it is wrong to judge another person for their action/s.  However, when it comes to Christianity I would like to float a question out there - is there a difference between judging another Christian and rebuking and correcting their actions?  To quote another part of the Bible:

All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work
~ 2 Timothy 3:16-17

I would argue that there is a very big difference between the two.  Judging another person is about condemnation.  We condemn them for their behaviours as "bad people", as people who deserve to be punished by God for what they have done.  To rebuke and correct a fellow believer for their actions is another matter.  It is an act of love designed to help them in their walk with God.  It is a duty for every Christian to help their Christian brothers and sisters, and if that requires stern rebuking of their actions, then so be it.  That is not judgement.  

These rebukings and corrections are not about trifling matters of how often one should go to church or how to read the Bible in the right way.  We are talking about actions of "sin", where a brother or sister in the Lord is living a life contradictory to the word of God.  If the brother or sister does not wish to listen then that is their choice, or if they have a different interpretation that is also their choice.  In the end only God can properly judge them (condemn them), but a difference in opinion should not stop a Christian from pointing someone to the Bible if there is a matter of sin to be dealt with.  

Agree with this opinion or not, it is what I believe the Bible encourages Christians to do with fellow Christians.  

~ Regards, PA