83 replies to this topic

[Michael Collins]

Hello Harte,  you appear to be confusing the Book of the Dead and the Pyramid Texts. I agree there are [seem to be] many obvious errors in the BoD.. But the PyrTexts not so - they are  original texts etched in the inner walls of pyramids at Saqqara [sp?].
Both Budge and Faulkner noted several places where the texts said the sun rose on the west ...too many instances to just write off as a copying mistake ...unless you want to. MC

[Harte]

I don't want to, it's just that those are the only mistakes I can find.

Care to link me to this claim in some meaningful way?  I'd be interested to see this, though I don't think it has much to do with anything.  I mean, nobody here is claiming that the Earth used to rotate the other direction, right?

Harte

[Michael Collins]

Hello Harte, I really can't be bothered since you are obviously closed to consideration. But yes, the Egyptians, Hebrews and Greeks all claimed the Earth overturned. I can chase the actual quotes if its worth it. MC

[TheSearcher]

Michael Collins, on 24 March 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

Hello Harte, I really can't be bothered since you are obviously closed to consideration. But yes, the Egyptians, Hebrews and Greeks all claimed the Earth overturned. I can chase the actual quotes if its worth it. MC

Please do, I for one would like to see them.

[Harte]

HA,  He "can't be bothered."

Harte

[Michael Collins]

Well I remember reading all that stuff but it is rather tedious to find the exact references. Meanwhile I do have a day job.
I'll let you know when I have time to get around to it
MC

[TheSearcher]

Michael Collins, on 25 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Well I remember reading all that stuff but it is rather tedious to find the exact references. Meanwhile I do have a day job.
I'll let you know when I have time to get around to it
MC

Well most of us have a day job as well, you know. And I didn't say you need to do it right away.

[bom shankra]

moving swiftly on...The ARTABA according to stecchini is derived from the geographic cubit (defined as 1/1 800 000 of the length of egypt from 31.30 deg tom 24.00 (7 deg 30 min) = 831 091m (smithsonian geographical tables). (stecchini states his findings for 1800000 cubits = 831 084m ( 1 geographic cubit = 461.6935mm)).

the ARTABA according to stecchini is 2/3 of this cubit cubed (= 307.7957mm, = geographic foot, and the multiple of the geographic foot is the stadium of 600 feet. also, the stadium is 1/600th of a degree, so there are 360000 geographic feet in a degree)...

skiping throught the narrative...

stecchini is building up his theory, and alludes to the period when the constitution of the USA was drafted, and draws attention to a special clause to prepare the ground for the adoption of a new decimal system of measures, which was advocated by all enlightened people, and when the french revolution moved to put the decimal system into law, The congress of the USA considered adopting the same system. However, Thomas Jefferson opposed the plan, on the grounds that the french system was inadequate, since it did not consolidate time with length volume and weight. So continuing with stecchinis theory, that the unit of length relates to rotation of the 'vault of heaven', which is in fact 1000 geographic cubits a second.

So, back to the ARTABA,  stecchini believes it  was divided into 64 pints (64 cubes with a side of a hand), and the pint was divided into 50 qedet of 9.1125 grams (employed to weigh gold and silver)...

next stecchinni digresses, and talks of brutto, and netto ( which I interpret as rough, and precise.)...

now follows a segment I found interesting, a cubic cubit filled with water was according to stecchini to be the standard amount that could be carried by an ass.. in Akkadian, stecchini states, these units were called imeru, which means 'ass'. the Masoretic texts of the O.T.  uses Hmr, but with different vowel pronuciations to refer to ass, or the weight / load, and supposedly makes puns on the confusing aspect. hellenistic Egypt  uses gomarion for ass, derived from gomos, - 'load'.  modern greek, ass = gomari, Italian = somaro, from greek sagma, "pack saddle".  the corresponding English word is sumpter, which corresponds to German saumtier, in turn corresponding to Italian bestia da soma- 'pack animal',and finally, in German Saum means 'burden', and also refers to a large unit of weight or volume( and a corpse on a stretcher).


This is just a snap shot of stecchinis reasoning on weights volumes and measures, and I would like to leave the ARTABA there for the time being. unless anyone has objections, I will resume with a shedule in subsequent posts that I think will lay better ground works to relay some of the key points of stecchinis theories relating to his specialised subject of ancient metrology, and its relevance to old kingdom A.E.

Edited by bom shankra, 26 March 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Michael Collins]

Hello Harte et al
Re the Earth rotation - here's a first installment, from Egypt
The Egyptian devil was called Typhon or Set. Typhon was described as 'a writhing ball of fire, twisted like a coil' [comet or asteroid, Pliny the Elder. Natural History, 20]
Set was an 'iron hearted devil' [meteorite] described as the overturner or inverter [Plutarch, from memory]
An Egyptian map of the world, on leather,  recovered by Jesuit Fr Kircher - showed the poles reversed [prob in Ars Magna Sciendi  or Mundus Subterraneus]
And the stellar map of the constellations from the temple of Dendera – now in the Louvre – was found in situ with its orientation inverted. [ie inverted vs current orientation] Citation lacking.
Several places in ancient E texts said the sun rose on the west [right] and set in th east [left] ...but this was 'corrected' as a 'blunder' by modern translators [
Budge, E.A.W. Legends of the Egyptian Gods, 239; The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts, I, Sp. 18 ,Faulkner trans.]
    
I quite realise the fact that the E 'devil' was an asteroid/meteorite does not change rotation - it just adds to the picture as to how the rotation changed. Incidentally, prior to the  change Earth also rotated upright in a regular 360 days, divided into 10 months; It was only later the surviving Es added the 'five added days' to the 360 there had been before [citation needed]
More ltr, MC

[Harte]

Michael Collins, on 27 March 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Hello Harte et al
Re the Earth rotation - here's a first installment, from Egypt
The Egyptian devil was called Typhon or Set. Typhon was described as 'a writhing ball of fire, twisted like a coil' [comet or asteroid, Pliny the Elder. Natural History, 20]
Set was an 'iron hearted devil' [meteorite] described as the overturner or inverter [Plutarch, from memory]
An Egyptian map of the world, on leather,  recovered by Jesuit Fr Kircher - showed the poles reversed [prob in Ars Magna Sciendi  or Mundus Subterraneus]

The Egyptians didn't know the poles.  That being said, their principle direction was what we call south today owing to the fact that the Nile came from there.

Michael Collins, on 27 March 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

And the stellar map of the constellations from the temple of Dendera – now in the Louvre – was found in situ with its orientation inverted. [ie inverted vs current orientation] Citation lacking.

It was Greek.  The Egyptians had no zodiac, which I assume is what you're talking about.  At any rate - citation lacking but necessary.

Michael Collins, on 27 March 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Several places in ancient E texts said the sun rose on the west [right] and set in th east [left] ...but this was 'corrected' as a 'blunder' by modern translators [
Budge, E.A.W. Legends of the Egyptian Gods, 239; The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts, I, Sp. 18 ,Faulkner trans.]

This is the source I was looking for.  Thanks.  I'll get back to you.

Michael Collins, on 27 March 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

I quite realise the fact that the E 'devil' was an asteroid/meteorite does not change rotation - it just adds to the picture as to how the rotation changed. Incidentally, prior to the  change Earth also rotated upright in a regular 360 days, divided into 10 months; It was only later the surviving Es added the 'five added days' to the 360 there had been before [citation needed]
More ltr, MC

Flat out wrong.  The Earth has slowed over billions of years. But at no time in the history of humanity has it ever revolved around the Sun in 360 days.  However, again, citation needed.

You are referring to old calendars, I believe.  the Egyptians had a 360 day calendar, with a long festival at the end waiting for Sothis to reappear (Sirius.)  Those festival days didn't count - there were five of them.

Harte

[Michael Collins]

Hello Harte
The E's didn't know the poles - says you. I assume you mean the principal [main] direction
The dendera zodiac may have been found in a Greek era temple, or temple restored in the Greek era, but the zodiac itself was ancient
How do you appear to personally know the Earth has never revolved in 360 days?
The quotation said - from memory - they added 5 days to the 360 that there had been before - plainly implying that there had been a prior period. I'll find the source.  The E's called themselves 'those who remain' [in translation] which is just a way of saying survivors. Hebrews also called themselves remnants and survivors.
Cheers
MC

[Harte]

Had a long response but lost it.

Here:
The poles of the Earth.  They had 4 directions like us, but they oriented around south rather than north.  So what?

The Egyptians never had a zodiac.

Rhythmites.  Curious people like myself actually read stuff throughout their lives and don't just live on fringe topics and youtube.

The Egytpians did not call themselves that.  The Hebrews were surviving remnants after they were destroyed by Assyria - 2 tribes left out of 12.

Harte

[bom shankra]

I had a post all prepared, but I see theres still chat going on.  I'm not too concerned with the topic, just a couple of points, Harte, as far as poles go, thats a 'loose fish', you aren't the worlds leading expert on the subject, and I beg to differ. The A.E. didn't use the zodiac so much as they reckoned by 'constellations'.
Mike, your saying the circular zodiac at Dendra, greek or otherwise, is 'inverted' where did you peruse that info? What I would bring attention to is that according to peter Tompkins,

Quote

"Shwaller agrees with Lockyer,  the temple of Hathor at dendra is built on remains of much older temples, and in that the zodiac in question the constellations are arranged in a spiral, and the symbolic figures are marching counterclockwise in the 'diurnal' direction of the stars. The zodiac is in a circle at the center of which is our north pole. This circle is in a square oriented with the walls of the temple (or about 17 deg. east of north). our north pole is correctly located in the consrellation of the jackal, or little bear as it was in ptolemaic times, but the zodiac also shows the pole of the ecpliptic, located in the breast of the hippopotamus, or constellation of Drago. - To schwaller, this explains the spiral formation of the constellations. The mythological figures representing the constellations are entwined in two circles - one around the north pole, and one around the pole of the ecpliptic, and where the two circles intersect marks the point of the equinox, or due east( not sure if wording is correct here, the temple is 17 deg east of north, and the line in question is perpendicular to the square containing the zodiac...), this line runs between pisces and aires, and indicates when the temple was built. there is another 'east' line which runs through the ram (circa 1600bc...), and two stylised hieroglyphs on the ring of the zodiac indicates  a line running through  the end of gemini, and the beggining of taurus. (third or forth millenium)

there is one particular representation on egyptian charts of the constellations - a hawk headed man holding in his outstreched arms a line which ends against the figure of an ox leg, representing the constellation of the great bear - according to stecchini, this line always ends at a very specific position, at times with an arrow point, which divides the seven stars of the great bear into for and three. This line says stecchini does not indicate the meridian passing through the north pole, but the meridian passing through the pole of the ecliptic.

Are they right? schwaller might be considered a bit left field, but does that discredit his theories?

[Harte]

bom shankra, on 29 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I had a post all prepared, but I see theres still chat going on.  I'm not too concerned with the topic, just a couple of points, Harte, as far as poles go, thats a 'loose fish', you aren't the worlds leading expert on the subject, and I beg to differ. The A.E. didn't use the zodiac so much as they reckoned by 'constellations'.

I'm aware of the Egyptian's considerations of and about the night sky.  I'm also aware that I'm not only not an expert, but especially not the "worlds leading expert" on the subject.  I have looked into it, however.

The fact is, the Egyptians didn't have a zodiac, defined as the ring of constellations roughly in line with the plane of the ecliptic - the zodiac used in Sumer and Greece and India, as well as by modern scam artists, to provide advice to the easily fleeced.  That's an important distinction, if you think about it.

In fact, there were a few constellations that were recognized by the Ancient Egyptians, mainly in the Northern sky.  To the south, there were primarily star groups with no formally recognized "shape" or pattern to them, that contained stars that were considered individually, most of them associated (again, individually) with various dieties.  However, when these southern groups are written about by modern scholars, they are still refered to as "constellations," though they don't make particular shapes.  Read about Egyptian Decans for more info about this.

A decent listing of the various constellations and decans can be found near the bottom of this page. As you can see, most are not associated with shape-type patterns made in the sky, but some are.  There's a pic of your Ox Leg from Senenmut's tomb and another from the tomb of Seti I on that page as well (you will see that by the time of the New Kingdom, the Ox Leg - Ursa Major - had morphed into an upright ox.)
You might also be interested in the information available at Catchpenny's page (Larry Orcutt.)

Note that no earlier such map has been found than Senenmut's, which is New Kingdom (18th Dynasty.)

Anyway, I said I had a long post ready but lost it. There was something wrong with the internet at my job. Didn't mean to make such curt statements but I felt I needed to respond, and I didn't have the time to re-compose all I'd written, with links re-inserted, etc.

Harte

[bom shankra]

I appreciate what you saying, all I wanted to say (without actually launching into a detailed counter argument), was that arguments for awareness of poles do exist. I'll look into the links you are drawing my attention to, and perhaps pick it up later.

meanwhile, I drew a represention of stecchinis land of to-mera (land of the MR meridian triangle).  its scaled to 1:1 longitude to latitude, not to scale, and the nile is composite, but locations are correctly proportioned. and all details accurately represent stecchinis actual monologue.