208 replies to this topic

[Arbitran]

quillius, on 12 April 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

hmmm, I spent quite some time last week trying to find a 'reason' for cattle mutilations (ok ok I was looking for a reason why ET would pick cows)....is this the link?    

Food for thought. There don't seem to be any definitive ancient accounts of cattle mutilations (well, apart from all of the sacrifices that God demands in the Bible). Maybe they were in the mood for beef?

[psyche101]

quillius, on 12 April 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

good man. And yes I agree with your comments on belief versus fact, I actually feel the same even as a believer.

I am glad this debate is now progressing nicely, you both seem to have very good knowledge and the fact that you are on opposites sides..makes it work well.

unlike nopeda on a similar thread who has maybe pushed too many of your buttons  

Seems to be stalled for the moment, I am hoping Arbitran will be able to put up the photos of his work to date. I'd be impressed to see someone trying to follow what they have invested so much into.
I think Arbitran and I just got off on the wrong foot, I have to say I have enjoyed the more recent informational exchanges. I somehow doubt nopeda will be a long term member here. He pushed some button alright, but only ones of self destruct I think LOL.

Edited by psyche101, 13 April 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Arbitran]

psyche101, on 13 April 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Seems to be stalled for the moment, I am hoping Arbitran will be able to put up the photos of his work to date. I'd be impressed to see someone trying to follow what they have invested so much into.
I think we just got off on the wrong foot, I have to say I have enjoyed the more recent informational exchanges. I somehow doubt nopeda will be a long term member here. He pushed some button alright, but only ones of self destruct I think LOL.

I hope that we can continue the discussion here. Alas, until my son comes to assist me, I won't be able to post any photos.

Can we still carry on here?

[psyche101]

Arbitran, on 13 April 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

I hope that we can continue the discussion here. Alas, until my son comes to assist me, I won't be able to post any photos.

Can we still carry on here?

I think I have run out of questions for the time being, but yes, I would be most pleased to continue the conversation Arbitran. I am very much looking forward to seeing the photos.

Thank you for asking.

[Arbitran]

psyche101, on 13 April 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

I think I have run out of questions for the time being, but yes, I would be most pleased to continue the conversation Arbitran. I am very much looking forward to seeing the photos.

Thank you for asking.

Very good. I'll get back when I can.

[Arbitran]

I would however, in the mean time, like to discuss more with you. Perhaps on another thread? I'm sure that you'll be interested, as usual.

I suspect of course that you'll be attempting to refute me, but that's fine. It will still be enlightening conversation.

[quillius]

Arbitran, on 12 April 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Food for thought. There don't seem to be any definitive ancient accounts of cattle mutilations (well, apart from all of the sacrifices that God demands in the Bible). Maybe they were in the mood for beef?

   enjoyed the pun....whether or not intentional

psyche101, on 13 April 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Seems to be stalled for the moment, I am hoping Arbitran will be able to put up the photos of his work to date. I'd be impressed to see someone trying to follow what they have invested so much into.I think Arbitran and I just got off on the wrong foot, I have to say I have enjoyed the more recent informational exchanges. I somehow doubt nopeda will be a long term member here. He pushed some button alright, but only ones of self destruct I think LOL.

Yes it seems you did, had a feeling it would progress eventually into an interesting conversation  

[Arbitran]

quillius, on 13 April 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

   enjoyed the pun....whether or not intentional



Yes it seems you did, had a feeling it would progress eventually into an interesting conversation  

Indeed. I think all has been cleared up here very nicely.

And, yes... the pun was intentional. I wondered if you would notice.

[quillius]

Arbitran, on 13 April 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Indeed. I think all has been cleared up here very nicely.

And, yes... the pun was intentional. I wondered if you would notice.

[conspiracyparanormal]

Arbitran, on 12 April 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

You would have to have at least one set date in the Bible however for "tracing" genealogies to be feasible. As far as I'm aware, there are no set dates (apart from a few which contradict each other; i.e. the date of Jesus' birth).

Also, you would need proper Hebrew numerals for that to work correctly. Most Bibles today use mistranslated integers (for instance, 500 and 600 instead of 105 and 106; the ages of Noah at the start and finish of the ark's construction).

Also, as a question... Do you imply that the human species has only existed for a few millennia?

I realize many people do not accept the Bible as historical record, or as anything more than fable. However, it does give dates that are at least ballpark figures. And we do have a starting point for the presence of the human species on Earth. Revelation 5:1 mentions a book sealed with seven seals. We know from revelations given to modern prophets that each of the seven seals represents a period of 1,000 years of Earth's temporal existence.

We also know from Genesis, and specifically from records of the ancient prophets Abraham and Moses, as well as by revelation given to modern prophets between AD 1820 and present day, that the creation of the earth was accomplished in six consecutive periods of 1,000 years each, after which there was a seventh period of 1,000 years during which the process of creation was finished and the earth rested. This suggests a pattern consistent with the fact that after the creation of the earth and after the period of rest, a new 7,000 year cycle began, wherein the earth entered its mortal or temporal existence. That era was ushered in by Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit around 4,000 BC.

We also know from modern prophets and apostles that the earth is now in what is called the last dispensation, or the dispensation of the fullness of times. That means we are nearing the end of the time period represented by the sixth seal, and approaching the opening of the seventh seal, during which all things, including currently controversial mysteries will be clearly revealed in proper context for all to understand.

Since today is roughly 2,000 years after the birth of Jesus Christ, and since Revelation indicates Earth's temporal existence has been about 6,000 years thus far, with the final millennium yet to transpire, we can deduce that the human species began its mortal probation on Earth about 6,000 years ago, which is about 4000 BC.

I realize this defies current theories that place humans on Earth tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years ago. It also defies popular paradigms of the Earth being hundreds of millions of years old. One explanation for such discrepancies is as simple as realizing that dating an object is not the same thing as dating the material of which the object is composed. Everyone assumes that relics and fossils and such are hundreds of thousands of years old, or millions of years old, because that is how old the material is. That is like saying a brand new wooden table is hundreds of years old based on the fact that the wood from which it is made dates back hundreds of years.

It is too easy for people to dismiss scriptural evidence, because to accept such would require accountability to God, and most people do not want to be held accountable for what they do with their private lives.

Regarding Noah's ark, the great flood, and other Biblical claims, some empirical evidence does exist, though it is often covered up or dismissed by those who do not want their well-accepted paradigms shaken by new discoveries. One place to start is with Ron E. Wyatt's research. More information on Ron E. Wyatt is available here. Ron is one of many who have uncovered evidence lending credence to Biblical claims. If even some Biblical claims are verified by secular research, then it all the more stands to reason that the Bible is for the most part accurate, though there have been many details taken out of it over the centuries, as it has been re-translated so many times by men of various levels of integrity.

Edited by conspiracyparanormal, 13 April 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[Arbitran]

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I realize many people do not accept the Bible as historical record, or as anything more than fable. However, it does give dates that are at least ballpark figures. And we do have a starting point for the presence of the human species on Earth. Revelation 5:1 mentions a book sealed with seven seals. We know from revelations given to modern prophets that each of the seven seals represents a period of 1,000 years of Earth's temporal existence.

Wait, "modern prophets"? Is it not made clear in the text of the Bible itself that the last prophet was Malachi? Therefore, how could there be any modern prophets? And would you mind indicating who these people are?

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

We also know from Genesis, and specifically from records of the ancient prophets Abraham and Moses, as well as by revelation given to modern prophets between AD 1820 and present day, that the creation of the earth was accomplished in six consecutive periods of 1,000 years each, after which there was a seventh period of 1,000 years during which the process of creation was finished and the earth rested. This suggests a pattern consistent with the fact that after the creation of the earth and after the period of rest, a new 7,000 year cycle began, wherein the earth entered its mortal or temporal existence. That era was ushered in by Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit around 4,000 BC.

I have seen not one shred of evidence in Genesis, nor the prophets, which give such a story. And have you bothered to give any of your modern prophets the test prescribed in Exodus? http://www.whatsaith...se.Prophet.html

Of course, based on this test, Jesus was a false prophet too... But then nobody seems to notice that.

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

We also know from modern prophets and apostles that the earth is now in what is called the last dispensation, or the dispensation of the fullness of times. That means we are nearing the end of the time period represented by the sixth seal, and approaching the opening of the seventh seal, during which all things, including currently controversial mysteries will be clearly revealed in proper context for all to understand.

Well, we'll certainly have a lot to talk about when that doesn't happen.

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Since today is roughly 2,000 years after the birth of Jesus Christ, and since Revelation indicates Earth's temporal existence has been about 6,000 years thus far, with the final millennium yet to transpire, we can deduce that the human species began its mortal probation on Earth about 6,000 years ago, which is about 4000 BC.

What we can deduce is that people 2,000 years ago didn't have the slightest clue where the Earth and the human species actually came from.

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I realize this defies current theories that place humans on Earth tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years ago. It also defies popular paradigms of the Earth being hundreds of millions of years old. One explanation for such discrepancies is as simple as realizing that dating an object is not the same thing as dating the material of which the object is composed. Everyone assumes that relics and fossils and such are hundreds of thousands of years old, or millions of years old, because that is how old the material is. That is like saying a brand new wooden table is hundreds of years old based on the fact that the wood from which it is made dates back hundreds of years.

You don't seem to understand modern dating methods. I think you'll want to read an actual science book, instead of a fallacious creationist book. http://en.wikipedia....iometric_dating

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

It is too easy for people to dismiss scriptural evidence, because to accept such would require accountability to God, and most people do not want to be held accountable for what they do with their private lives.

Clearly another bit of fallacious and absurd information given to you, either from the pulpit, or a creationist book. I personally think that textual evidence is often overlooked... but in the case of the Hindu texts, which verify themselves through the accuracy of their scientific knowledge. The Bible has no such scientific knowledge.

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Regarding Noah's ark, the great flood, and other Biblical claims, some empirical evidence does exist, though it is often covered up or dismissed by those who do not want their well-accepted paradigms shaken by new discoveries. One place to start is with Ron E. Wyatt's research. More information on Ron E. Wyatt is available here. Ron is one of many who have uncovered evidence lending credence to Biblical claims. If even some Biblical claims are verified by secular research, then it all the more stands to reason that the Bible is for the most part accurate, though there have been many details taken out of it over the centuries, as it has been re-translated so many times by men of various levels of integrity.

Ah, so you are a conspiracy theorist; I was wondering where your name came from. Yes, there is some degree of evidence for a large flood, circa 11,000 years ago, but there is no evidence of any kind for Noah's ark. There may be circumstantial evidence which implies that, for instance, King Solomon was a real person. Apart from that, virtually none of the Bible is supported by evidence--of any kind, let alone empirical. Ron E. Wyatt is a known fraud, and his claims have all been conclusively debunked. This is not some conspiracy or cover-up: his claims simply weren't true. He lied. Yes, it has been translated many times. For the record though, I actually read and speak Hebrew: it's not much better in the original version.

[psyche101]

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I realize many people do not accept the Bible as historical record, or as anything more than fable. However, it does give dates that are at least ballpark figures. And we do have a starting point for the presence of the human species on Earth. Revelation 5:1 mentions a book sealed with seven seals. We know from revelations given to modern prophets that each of the seven seals represents a period of 1,000 years of Earth's temporal existence.

We also know from Genesis, and specifically from records of the ancient prophets Abraham and Moses, as well as by revelation given to modern prophets between AD 1820 and present day, that the creation of the earth was accomplished in six consecutive periods of 1,000 years each, after which there was a seventh period of 1,000 years during which the process of creation was finished and the earth rested. This suggests a pattern consistent with the fact that after the creation of the earth and after the period of rest, a new 7,000 year cycle began, wherein the earth entered its mortal or temporal existence. That era was ushered in by Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit around 4,000 BC.

We also know from modern prophets and apostles that the earth is now in what is called the last dispensation, or the dispensation of the fullness of times. That means we are nearing the end of the time period represented by the sixth seal, and approaching the opening of the seventh seal, during which all things, including currently controversial mysteries will be clearly revealed in proper context for all to understand.

Since today is roughly 2,000 years after the birth of Jesus Christ, and since Revelation indicates Earth's temporal existence has been about 6,000 years thus far, with the final millennium yet to transpire, we can deduce that the human species began its mortal probation on Earth about 6,000 years ago, which is about 4000 BC.

Ahh Mormons.

You are the only ones who recognise your apostles, the rest of the world does not.  If there's science that they like, then it's a gift from god. If they don't like the science, then it's either Satan's deception, or some irrelevant wild guess that will get resolved in the fullness of time.

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I realize this defies current theories that place humans on Earth tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years ago. It also defies popular paradigms of the Earth being hundreds of millions of years old. One explanation for such discrepancies is as simple as realizing that dating an object is not the same thing as dating the material of which the object is composed. Everyone assumes that relics and fossils and such are hundreds of thousands of years old, or millions of years old, because that is how old the material is. That is like saying a brand new wooden table is hundreds of years old based on the fact that the wood from which it is made dates back hundreds of years.

What about all the other methods used? You are quite ambiguous here, I am not certain of you are speaking about stratigraphy or carbon dating. Your protest seems to encompass both?

Dating Methods LINK

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

It is too easy for people to dismiss scriptural evidence, because to accept such would require accountability to God, and most people do not want to be held accountable for what they do with their private lives.

It is easy to see that the scriptures do not line up with what the world is today. If the Bible were accurate, the world would not be as it is today.

Accountable for private lives? Amusing to say the least! If one does not realise Gods wishes, people who just do not bother with Church, then what do they have to fear? They will be oblivious wont they?

conspiracyparanormal, on 13 April 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Regarding Noah's ark, the great flood, and other Biblical claims, some empirical evidence does exist, though it is often covered up or dismissed by those who do not want their well-accepted paradigms shaken by new discoveries. One place to start is with Ron E. Wyatt's research. More information on Ron E. Wyatt is available here. Ron is one of many who have uncovered evidence lending credence to Biblical claims. If even some Biblical claims are verified by secular research, then it all the more stands to reason that the Bible is for the most part accurate, though there have been many details taken out of it over the centuries, as it has been re-translated so many times by men of various levels of integrity.

Ron Wyatt does not see to be able to explain why we have all these fresh water organisms though. Wether you date the flood 2 thousand or 6 thousand years it will not matter, because we have freshwater organisms that should all be dead by now when the seas rose. The resultant temperature changes and salination levels would have killed of much sea life as well. We know this, try catching a fish in an ocean or ocean fed salt water river and stick it in a bucket of fresh water. It will die. Why do we have specimens that clearly date back the the beginning of time, despite if one believes in a 6 thousand years old earth of a 4 billion year old earth? IT simply cannot be.

And I still think your subject matter is in the wrong forum.

Edited by psyche101, 16 April 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[psyche101]

Arbitran, on 13 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I would however, in the mean time, like to discuss more with you. Perhaps on another thread? I'm sure that you'll be interested, as usual.

I suspect of course that you'll be attempting to refute me, but that's fine. It will still be enlightening conversation.

No doubt I will ask for absolute proof positive, but I would be letting myself down if I was to believe something without justifying what I am being told, and rather lazy. But as questions come I will be asking them, any idea when you might see your son? I am more than interested in seeing the pictures of your work.

[Arbitran]

psyche101, on 16 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Ahh Mormons.

You are the only ones who recognise your apostles, the rest of the world does not.  If there's science that they like, then it's a gift from god. If they don't like the science, then it's either Satan's deception, or some irrelevant wild guess that will get resolved in the fullness of time.






What about all the other methods used? You are quite ambiguous here, I am not certain of you are speaking about stratigraphy or carbon dating. Your protest seems to encompass both?

Dating Methods LINK



It is easy to see that the scriptures do not line up with what the world is today. If the Bible were accurate, the world would not be as it is today.

Accountable for private lives? Amusing to say the least! If one does not realise Gods wishes, people who just do not bother with Church, then what do they have to fear? They will be oblivious wont they?




Ron Wyatt does not see to be able to explain why we have all these fresh water organisms though. Wether you date the flood 2 thousand or 6 thousand years it will not matter, because we have freshwater organisms that should all be dead by now when the seas rose. The resultant temperature changes and salination levels would have killed of much sea life as well. We know this, try catching a fish in an ocean or ocean fed salt water river and stick it in a bucket of fresh water. It will die. Why do we have specimens that clearly date back the the beginning of time, despite if one believes in a 6 thousand years old earth of a 4 billion year old earth? IT simply cannot be.

And I still think your subject matter is in the wrong forum.

Ah, a Mormon (nearly just wrote 'Moron' by accident; or perhaps a "revelation from God"?). He never made it clear enough; I thought he was just another Fundamentalist Christian--granted, one with particularly asinine ideas. I suppose that explains it.

Oh, the Bible is clearly divinely-inspired truth! How else would I know to cure leprosy by slaughtering birds? Or that it is physically possible to survive inside the stomach of a giant sea creature for three days without oxygen, and bathed in gastric juices! Or that the solution to world hunger is to wander about in the desert for forty years and ask your imaginary friend to supply some questionable, mysterious substance from the sky for sustenance? Or that the Earth is in fact a disk, which sits upon pillars--as well as the sky? Or that the way to save humanity is to incarnate yourself as your own son from a virgin mother, and then have yourself executed and sacrificed unto yourself for the wrongdoings of people which you yourself were holding against them because their distant ancestors ate a magical fruit because a talking snake talked a woman made from a rib into it, and then rise from the dead roughly two days later and ascend into the sky to live forever, whilst simultaneously declaring that anyone who believes that he did all these things wouldn't have to be punished for all eternity in spite of his undying love by him. Oh yes! How could anyone think that this amazing story is the divine-inspired, inerrant word of the invisible, unsmellable, inaudible, untasteable, untouchable, intangible sky god of the ancient Palestinian nomadic goatherds who created the universe?

Ron Wyatt is known fraud. He has no real evidence whatsoever; he is not a scientist; he is known to have hoaxed "evidence". Let's leave all frauds and hoaxers out of the conversation: they're not at all credible authorities, are they?

Evolution, by the way, is a scientific fact. Yes, the theory of evolution is framework of explanation which best explains the observable fact of evolution. Creationism/intelligent design (as I've said, they're the same thing) is not science.

Tell me when someone digs up a crocoduck and perhaps we'll talk about revising evolutionary biology. I have a strong suspicion that the crocoduck would just be a hoax too, however...

I think this is the right forum. He's preaching his own brand of alternative history: he's in the right place for that. He clearly didn't expect quite so much refutation of his baseless beliefs however...