131 replies to this topic

[danbell06]

Genuinely believe that there are 72 virgins waiting for them in the next life?  

[and then]

I think they must.  How else does one explain a young, otherwise healthy young man (mostly) being willing to wrap themselves in explosives and kill strangers, including children?  I read once that while cleaning up in the aftermath of such a horror they found a young man's genitalia wrapped in foil so it could not be burned in the blast.

[Jeffertonturner]

Maybe they do. Do christians believe all the dumb things they are promised?

It is fun to pick at other religions I am sure. But yours is just as stupid as theirs. Don't think you are any better.

[Parsip]

Yes, what's unbelievable about it?

[Amy the Mighty]

I imagine this question is meant to be inflammatory.

I believe that the "72 virgins" is not the reason some young Muslim men choose to be suicide bombers. I think that a belief that their belief system, the legitimacy of their faith, is not respected by western countries may be a motivator. A perception that the legitimacy of their culture as a foundation for government, is not respected by western countries, may also be a factor. The West's support of a Jewish state, but not a Palestinian Arab state, kind of gives the impression that Jewish children are a bit more valuable than Muslim children. This might make some young Muslim men feel justified in blowing themselves up to kill as many people as possible.

I'm pretty lucky to have been born in a democratic country where I'm allowed to practice whichever faith I feel drawn to, and allowed to vote for my local, state and federal leaders. I would love for every person on earth to have the rights that I have here, but I know that citizens of some other countries may never see anything like my standard of freedom in their lifetime. I don't think that's a reason to bomb them into obliteration.

To borrow an expression from the Australian government, your question is focusing on pull factors, not push factors. The push factors are the motivators here.

[Parsip]

You give them too much credit. Suicide bombers are usually depressed, hopeless nobodies who are brainwashed by terrorist recruiters and made to believe that all their troubles could vanish in an instant, and that dying during a jihad will take them straight to heaven, where they'll be eternally happy. Al Qaeda, for example, rape teenaged boys and convince them that they'll forever be unIslamic homosexuals unless they kill themselves during jihad. Do you think those people kill themselves because "the legitimacy of their faith (and) the legitimacy of their culture as a foundation for government are not respected by western countries"?

[Mr Walker]

Parsip, on 25 March 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

You give them too much credit. Suicide bombers are usually depressed, hopeless nobodies who are brainwashed by terrorist recruiters and made to believe that all their troubles could vanish in an instant, and that dying during a jihad will take them straight to heaven, where they'll be eternally happy. Al Qaeda, for example, rape teenaged boys and convince them that they'll forever be unIslamic homosexuals unless they kill themselves during jihad. Do you think those people kill themselves because "the legitimacy of their faith (and) the legitimacy of their culture as a foundation for government are not respected by western countries"?

Yes And to underestimate them is dangerously stupid. These people arent  all dumb, primitive, tribesmen. Some of them are western educated, native born, Britishers french or other nationalities.

Many are just as educated as any of us. The biggest cause of conflict is not between religious faiths but, as always, (in revolutionary theory) due to the discrepancies between hopes, expectations, and realities, and to perceived (and often very real) injustices and inequalities.
If i lived in one of those countries, I would probably want to make war on the west, despite the ultimate futility of doing so. "Our" economic and military imperialism created most of this problem in the first place, both in meddling in the local geopolitical realities,(eg creating nations fromm tribesmen who were traditional enemies) and in taking so much of their resources to make us more wealthy and powerful. And we never did much to alleviate it while we still could have, either.

[Amy the Mighty]

Parsip, on 25 March 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

You give them too much credit. Suicide bombers are usually depressed, hopeless nobodies who are brainwashed by terrorist recruiters and made to believe that all their troubles could vanish in an instant, and that dying during a jihad will take them straight to heaven, where they'll be eternally happy. Al Qaeda, for example, rape teenaged boys and convince them that they'll forever be unIslamic homosexuals unless they kill themselves during jihad. Do you think those people kill themselves because "the legitimacy of their faith (and) the legitimacy of their culture as a foundation for government are not respected by western countries"?

I think that a perception of how the west has regarded Islam and Islamic government is definitely a motivating factor for getting young Muslim men radicalised enough to become bombers. As for the specific sexual abuse of Al Qaeda, that's just another version of breaking people down so that they can be manipulated into doing terrible things. It might be hypocritically un-Islamic, but then it's rare to find fundamentalist groups of any faith sticking to a consistent practice of what their faith teaches when it's inconvenient.

If these men are driven to acting as suicide bombers, then that outcome is pretty consistent with being in an abusive situation with no escape. The sense of guilt accompanying the abuse would only exacerbate that, and make them prime fodder for suicide, regardless of whether that urge to suicide is harnessed or not. Their belief that as good Muslims, they have to defend themselves from non-Muslims, and that they have to resort to terrorism to protect their interests, is not diminished. A strong enough belief that one is right, will propel people to do terrible things under the banner of that belief. I sincerely doubt that young men are grabbed off the street and raped until they believe a political message. It would be more accurate to suggest that they are initially motivated politically and ideologically to join the cause before any rape takes place.

Are you aware that people in Muslim countries might feel a bit persecuted by the West over the past few decades? You might not agree with their perception, but they don't need your or my agreement to feel justified, and our not agreeing with them doesn't change the fact.

[dougeaton]

danbell06, on 25 March 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Genuinely believe that there are 72 virgins waiting for them in the next life?  

The question is too simplistic by far.  I would think that many do not think this way.  Mulsim I am sure are just a vared and complex as any group be  it  religious or not.

doug

[Parsip]

I don't want to go off-topic too much, but I disagree with you there. We shouldn't generalize as I did in post #6, but I can't imagine the majority of suicide bombers being psychologically stable. The vast majority of suicide bombers are never identified (in Iraq, but presumably it's the same everywhere else), so what we know about their mentality comes mainly from the families of the few who are identified. This study for instance states that most suicide bombers are "psychologically normal", but contradicts itself; in reality, the motivations for suicide bombing are largely emotional and related to "humiliation, revenge, retaliation", "desperation, pride, anger, sense of powerlessness, local tradition of resistance and religious fervor." My view is that most suicide bombers are indoctrinated by their families, religious figures, or terrorist recruiters, and made to believe their lives are less important than their duties to Islam or their community, and that they will be rewarded in the afterlife for their actions.

[hetrodoxly]

Jeffertonturner, on 25 March 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Maybe they do. Do christians believe all the dumb things they are promised?

It is fun to pick at other religions I am sure. But yours is just as stupid as theirs. Don't think you are any better.

What Christian suicide bombers would that be?

[Jeffertonturner]

hetrodoxly, on 25 March 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

What Christian suicide bombers would that be?

If you think christians have never killed for their beliefs you are just uninformed.

[FradFitt]

danbell06, on 25 March 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Genuinely believe that there are 72 virgins waiting for them in the next life?  

Quotation of the Koran sura 56, verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."

Now, the word "houris" is thought to be "virgins", however, other translations of the Koran suggests, that "houris" are "white beads", "raisins" or even "grapes", yet, the word "hur" occurs in the Koran four times, and this can be translated, because of the whole sentences as "maiden with dark eyes".

Funny thing, no where in the Koran is there anything mentioned about a specific number of "houris", further more, all Muslims, not just martyrs, are rewarded with the "houris", then they enters the Islamic paradise.

In short, no one really knows, how to translate Koran as it was written so many years, mainly because of it's many translations throughout the years.

[Seeker79]

The psychological profile of suicide bombers is as complex as any. Many many people have willingly give their lives for some cause. If there is a sincere beleif in a pleasant afterlife it's not that hard to devalue this life.

[danbell06]

Jeffertonturner, on 25 March 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Maybe they do. Do christians believe all the dumb things they are promised?

It is fun to pick at other religions I am sure. But yours is just as stupid as theirs. Don't think you are any better.

Not once, did i claim to be better than anybody.  
I don't know where you thought that theory up from. It was a genuine question.
And i'm not a Christian, nor do i hold any religious beliefs.