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#91    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:28 PM

well as simple person like me there isn't nothing i can could do
but once we are occupied we know how to resist .. and when we do we get called terrorists
and the occupying forces .. are the coaltion army .. ain't that a stupid logic ? :D

am not assyrian by the way

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
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And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#92    RavenHawk

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 03 April 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

well as simple person like me there isn't nothing i can could do
Youíre just a moderate and you have no power, is that it?  Play the copout?  But if you had the power, what would you do?  How would you prevent terrorism from emanating from your country?  How would you meet the needs of your people in quality of life, employment, and ease civil unrest?  How would you confront the imams and clerics to reform Islam in a modern world?

Quote

but once we are occupied we know how to resist ..
Despite what one would think, resistance (asymmetric warfare) really has little hope of winning.  The only way for that to happen would be that the resistance gets external help in massive quantities or the invader loses their will to do what is necessary.  Now that is what is happening right now.  And what is going to happen is that the occupying forces are going to find a way to pull out under the delusion that they were successful, then the real terrorism will bite them in the butt again because Islam hasnít lost its will.

Without the aid of the French, the American Revolution would have fizzled out.  Although with the leadership of Washington and his generals (of which one is my ancestor :) ), the British Will would not have been enough to break the Revolution.  After the Treaty of Paris, fundamentalist American Christians didnít go attack the Brits with suicide bombers in Canada or vowed to kick them into the sea.  Or thought that the Brits were worthy of death because they were imperialists and not republicans.  Americans did kick out the British in Georgia (1783) and the Ohio Valley (1794) and didnít cross the border.  Thatís the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.  And for argumentís sake, there are probably exceptions.  Bringing down the WTC is not one of them.  America was not involved in any invasion of a Muslim nation in 2001.  The real reason then, must lie elsewhere.

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and when we do we get called terrorists
and the occupying forces .. are the coaltion army .. ain't that a stupid logic ? :D
It is a complex situation.  In the American Civil War, the North called it ďThe War of the RebellionĒ and the South called it ďThe War of Southern IndependenceĒ.  Itís all in the point of view.  It is difficult to separate the terrorists from resistance fighters, mainly because many are both.  When you strike at the heart of terrorists, there you will also find the resistance.  Thatís one of the tricks to occupation Ė to win the hearts and minds.  I would have thought that we would have learned that trick by now, and for awhile that was the case.  But we have lost the initiative and the will isnít there.  Weíve forgotten the purpose.  And that will condemn us to another terrorist attack on our shores down the road.

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am not assyrian by the way
Well, youíre in the realm of Assyria (heritage), therefore Syrian by proxy.

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#93    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:05 PM

well am moderate you asked me what i can do i said as simple person nothing .. you didn't say IF i had the power
and if i did i'd serperate religion from politics the two don't mix well together
but too many if won't make a change really i can go on about if i was i would do and if and if but hey that lose the point
reality is Am NOT in power .. so there's no need for if i was what would i do

actually asymmetric warfare got many countries freed .. the secret lies by causing the enemy as many losses that it would make it's stays more expensive than leaveing worked always coz we fight for our country .. they fight for greed .. piece of cake

and it's not matter of opinion it's matter of right and wrong and which side you take
i doubt having one opinion could change the reality that 1+1=2 .. even if i think it's 11 it doesn't change the answer

however am not assyrian am proud to be arab and never forget my kurdish roots eaither so thank you i'll pass being assyrian
i actually i don't i'll enjoy being one
and syria is not the hertiage of assyrians .. cannaites were here thousands of years B.C
while assyrians arrived in times of christ .. you get the idea ?
that makes them the newbies in syria ..

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#94    and then

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:06 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 26 March 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Hahaha maby the murderous zealots will get what's comeing to them after all. It's bad enough when one woman rejects me for sex... 72 of them would be a serious self esteem killer... The worse part is that I'd be ALREADY DEAD!!! There would be no escape!

Being virgins would make it worse. One woman that actually knows something will beat a bunch of virgins any day.

No truer words ever spoken Seeker!

Edited by and then, 04 April 2012 - 12:07 AM.

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#95    psyche101

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:54 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 April 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

You’re just a moderate and you have no power, is that it?  Play the copout?  But if you had the power, what would you do?  How would you prevent terrorism from emanating from your country?  How would you meet the needs of your people in quality of life, employment, and ease civil unrest?  How would you confront the imams and clerics to reform Islam in a modern world?


Despite what one would think, resistance (asymmetric warfare) really has little hope of winning.  The only way for that to happen would be that the resistance gets external help in massive quantities or the invader loses their will to do what is necessary.  Now that is what is happening right now.  And what is going to happen is that the occupying forces are going to find a way to pull out under the delusion that they were successful, then the real terrorism will bite them in the butt again because Islam hasn’t lost its will.

Without the aid of the French, the American Revolution would have fizzled out.  Although with the leadership of Washington and his generals (of which one is my ancestor :) ), the British Will would not have been enough to break the Revolution.  After the Treaty of Paris, fundamentalist American Christians didn’t go attack the Brits with suicide bombers in Canada or vowed to kick them into the sea.  Or thought that the Brits were worthy of death because they were imperialists and not republicans.  Americans did kick out the British in Georgia (1783) and the Ohio Valley (1794) and didn’t cross the border.  That’s the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.  And for argument’s sake, there are probably exceptions.  Bringing down the WTC is not one of them.  America was not involved in any invasion of a Muslim nation in 2001.  The real reason then, must lie elsewhere.


It is a complex situation.  In the American Civil War, the North called it “The War of the Rebellion” and the South called it “The War of Southern Independence”.  It’s all in the point of view.  It is difficult to separate the terrorists from resistance fighters, mainly because many are both.  When you strike at the heart of terrorists, there you will also find the resistance.  That’s one of the tricks to occupation – to win the hearts and minds.  I would have thought that we would have learned that trick by now, and for awhile that was the case.  But we have lost the initiative and the will isn’t there.  We’ve forgotten the purpose.  And that will condemn us to another terrorist attack on our shores down the road.


Well, you’re in the realm of Assyria (heritage), therefore Syrian by proxy.



Wow.

My thanks, you have really given a person something to think about. I would like to tak this opportunity to also thank Knight Of Shadows for the input. I had heard quite a bit about the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse in the media, but the additional information from KOS on the rapes is more than sobering. Have the reports of children being raped been confirmed? That is abhorrent behavior and inexcusable. May I ask you Raven if you have watched the documentary Ghosts Of Abu Ghraib and if so, may I ask your opinion of it?

@ KOS, you make some valid points and one can see why the anger is so deep in some cases, but do you feel the ME is completely innocent with regards to the current situation, and what do you feel Muslims such as those depicted in the following clip are accomplishing? Does this example not illustrate a reason why the animosity runs so deep? May I also ask your opinion of the abovementioned documentary? Do you feel there is a way for the two cultures to co-exist at all? How do you feel about the reign of the last Shah? (Mohammad Reza Pahlavi)



Edited by psyche101, 04 April 2012 - 01:57 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#96    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM

i have not heard or saw anything about children's rape which is why i never brought it
but there was childern murderers
however i have not seen the document but the news channel that exposed that prison was broad casting it
if it wasn't for that channel .. no one would knew and the torture would go on along with everything else
so you can see what i think of usa politics .. it's never wrong if it's not exposed

the muslims of that clip well i got two points i think the whole reason of the march .. a muslim woman arrested because
her husband did something .. and without any evidence well the march has a reason damn good one too

but am not too happy with their blunt language to that cute girl i mean you have to know
that muslims .. in muslims country are not like that at all
those " western " muslims are minority there therefore they feel oppressed and therefore they get defensive about their beliefs
but that's how about how they may feel but am not like other people here who just want to make up excuses
what they said to that girl is totally wrong and hell even in islam says that only god can judge people
neither it's not up to that man with beared to decide wheather she's in hell or heaven .. unless he became a god and we don't know

but hey the chanting burn in hell .. am not against it i'll chant it against my own police too :D
so if you got background on the story .. why is she arrested ? any evidence ? is she getting arrested just because her husband is a Murderer ? because if that's so i think even western laws does not punish some one for some one else's crime right ?

you may have noticed i called him murderer because when some one make a murderer , rape , any crime
i don't look at it as muslim or christian or western i don't try to make it look like not big deal
he's just a murderer

the Mohammad Reza Pahlavi is in iran .. personally i think shittes are not muslims so my view will be too biased to post :D

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#97    psyche101

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:46 AM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

i have not heard or saw anything about children's rape which is why i never brought it
but there was childern murderers
however i have not seen the document but the news channel that exposed that prison was broad casting it
if it wasn't for that channel .. no one would knew and the torture would go on along with everything else
so you can see what i think of usa politics .. it's never wrong if it's not exposed

Thank you for your reply.

I got the impression of rape as I have read in a few headlines :The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking
Which is truly chilling. That action I agree should carry a harsh punishment.

I do believe that there is no excuse for child murder. I would think that you are right, transparency reduces ones courage to act in such a way, but in a war situation I am not entirely sure it would be possible across the board. The Taliban have no regard for age or Gender, and are just as guilty as anyone in Abu Ghraib but that does not make it OK for either side. It does indicate why we see things like this though. The Taliban opened fire on a school bus in Pakistan, That is targeting children in a usual (I wont say normal in this instance) state of mind. Fighting against people of such low character must affect one mentally. As such, although I will not and canot condone it, to an extent I think I can see why prisoners were treated with no regard whatsoever. I think the entire situation would give one the impression that they are serving justice. But if one touches a child, they fall below those they hold in such a low esteem. Do you feel the punishments handed out over the incident were satisfactory?

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

the muslims of that clip well i got two points i think the whole reason of the march .. a muslim woman arrested because
her husband did something .. and without any evidence well the march has a reason damn good one too

I cannot agree, she was married to the guy, so arrest for suspicion of assistance seems quite a normal procedure to carry out.

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

but am not too happy with their blunt language to that cute girl i mean you have to know
that muslims .. in muslims country are not like that at all
those " western " muslims are minority there therefore they feel oppressed and therefore they get defensive about their beliefs
but that's how about how they may feel but am not like other people here who just want to make up excuses
what they said to that girl is totally wrong and hell even in islam says that only god can judge people
neither it's not up to that man with beared to decide wheather she's in hell or heaven .. unless he became a god and we don't know

I was hoping you would not condone them. And it is refreshing to see that some Muslims do not agree with this sentiment, however, why do Muslims not protest right back at these dissidents? If the majority do not agree, why do they not form just as big a group and tell people like to stop slandering all of Islam? And if these people feel oppressed, why are they in these countries and not where they feel comfortable with their belief? It strikes me that the normal thing to do would be to move?

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

but hey the chanting burn in hell .. am not against it i'll chant it against my own police too :D

Really? Why is that? Do you feel police offer no benefit to society?

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

so if you got background on the story .. why is she arrested ? any evidence ? is she getting arrested just because her husband is a Murderer ? because if that's so i think even western laws does not punish some one for some one else's crime right ?

Mona Thwany was arrested for suspicion. Police detained Miss Thwany at her home in Luton as they searched two properties. She was released on police bail until November. And the police had good reason to search her and have the suspicion. Scotland Yard said: 'At 10.55pm last night, Metropolitan Police officers executed a search warrant under the Terrorism Act 2000 at an address in Bedfordshire.
I would (and still do) find it hard to believe that she was completely unaware of her husbands devotion to death. The Luton Islamic Centre said Abdulwahab's views were deemed so extreme that he was asked to leave after he began giving sermons three years ago. It has also emerged Abdulwahab visited radical Islamic websites and Facebook groups including one which offers advice on preparing for Judgement Day. Another website he visited - Yawm Al-Qiyaamah - shows pictures of Tower Bridge engulfed by flames and has more than 8,000 followers. His Facebook page features an Islamic flag being raised over a world in flames. On the page, he says he is a member of the group Islamic Caliphate State, which seeks to establish Islamic rule worldwide and adds: ĎIím a Muslim and Iím proud. He also sent his wife an MP3 file ten minutes before he blew himself up. And his wife two years previous to the incident signed an online petition calling for the wearing of the veil to remain legal worldwide.

He was Sunni.

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

you may have noticed i called him murderer because when some one make a murderer , rape , any crime
i don't look at it as muslim or christian or western i don't try to make it look like not big deal
he's just a murderer

I find this refreshing and hope you have the same attitude towards Sargent Bales. He was an individual case and certainly not indicative of the average american to the best of my knowledge. What he did was abhorrent and he must pay for that, but I think he should be returned to the states to be handed over for research into the mind to see what went wrong. Nobody will be able to analyse his madness if his head is rolling on the ground in some distant country.

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

the Mohammad Reza Pahlavi is in iran .. personally i think shittes are not muslims so my view will be too biased to post :D

Fair enough. May I ask if that is based upon extremist views or differences with the interpretation of the religion itself?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#98    Lilly

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:49 AM

The subject of rape and torture of the innocent is indeed terrible. However, the actual subject of this thread is supposed to be if most Muslims believe in the idea of receiving 72 virgins as a reward in the afterlife. Let's try and get back on topic please.

Edited by Lilly, 04 April 2012 - 09:49 AM.
tag correction

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#99    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:21 AM

psyche101 we can finish this in the right forum for it if you're that curious

for the virgins last i heared there was 99
so i think they got reduced due to the world financial problems probably

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#100    hetrodoxly

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:25 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

psyche101 we can finish this in the right forum for it if you're that curious

for the virgins last i heared there was 99
so i think they got reduced due to the world financial problems probably

I thought that was red balloons?

Thank god i'm an athiest.

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#101    and then

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:38 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 29 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

The US and UK are to blame for the terrorism.

The Jews should have been given unoccupied lands to build a nation on not other peoples homes.

As it is the only way it will work is if war happens and one side is ejected from their lands or both unite together into one country. I cant see either happening anytime soon so the terrorism will continue.

I think this is the ONLY solution and it will happen at some point, I believe.  God made an eternal contract with Abraham and even listed the boundaries of the land that would be his in perpetuity.  Call it myth if you like but if you live long enough you will see it happen.  It's all beginning to rapidly come together and no matter how unfair anyone thinks it is, it will come to pass as predicted in scripture.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
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#102    psyche101

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:20 AM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 April 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

psyche101 we can finish this in the right forum for it if you're that curious

for the virgins last i heared there was 99
so i think they got reduced due to the world financial problems probably


Thanks KOS< do you know if there is an active thread that would be appropriate?

@ Lilly, sorry, just trying to understand what the depth of the conviction is and why so many continue to believe in it. i.e. is it religion, or is religion a guise to make one believe that things like 72 virgins are a reward for murdering innocent people in the name of revenge? I'll continue elsewhere. Some surely believe it, but can all believe this?

I think one of the best points I have seen in this thread was when the question was asked by fullwired:


What do the virgins think of all this?

They have to share one lousy bloke with 71 other women for eternity? They do not seem to be getting the best deal here. Surely these are muslim women as we infidels are too filthy to touch aren't we? Seems a lousy reward that. Surely that alone is a question that has been asked before, I wonder if an answer has ever been provided?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#103    Lilly

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:44 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 05 April 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

What do the virgins think of all this?

They have to share one lousy bloke with 71 other women for eternity? They do not seem to be getting the best deal here. Surely these are muslim women as we infidels are too filthy to touch aren't we? Seems a lousy reward that. Surely that alone is a question that has been asked before, I wonder if an answer has ever been provided?

I rather suspect that how the women feel about it is of little/no consequence. I find that when people believe things based on faith alone it frequently has little to do with rational thinking.

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#104    RavenHawk

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:35 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 03 April 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

well am moderate you asked me what i can do i said as simple person nothing .. you didn't say IF i had the power
Well, on a forum like this, it is assumed that one has no power.  But this is to discuss the ďwhat ifsĒ.  And before change can take place, it has to be talked about in the open.

Quote

and if i did i'd serperate religion from politics the two don't mix well together
This is real interesting.  I thought that Islam was built on the two being one-in-the-same?  More tightly bound than in any other religion.  That is one of the main reasons that Sharia law and the Constitution are incompatible.  So the question I would have for you is, can the politics be pulled from Islam and it still remain Islam?  The real fragmentation in the Muslim world is not between Shiite and Sunni but orthodox and unorthodox or heretic.  To separate the politics would be to invite other authority (beside Allah) into a Muslimís life.  Is that not a major sin?

Quote

but too many if won't make a change really i can go on about if i was i would do and if and if but hey that lose the point
But you could use the power you do have to discuss change among your fellow Muslims in a non threatening way.  Show how it could be done.  Get people to talk about it openly.

Quote

reality is Am NOT in power .. so there's no need for if i was what would i do
And it is that attitude that allows the radicals to drive the bus.

Quote

actually asymmetric warfare got many countries freed ..
Well, thatís a matter of opinion.  Many times freedom fighters just pave the way for a dictator to take over.  Those countries got *freed* alright, right back into bondage.  The new dictator is as corrupt as the old leadership was.

Quote

the secret lies by causing the enemy as many losses that it would make it's stays more expensive than leaveing worked always coz we fight for our country .. they fight for greed .. piece of cake
Thatís the main strategy for unconventional warfare.  Draw it out until the invaderís will is broken.  That is true for those that fight for greed.  But when fighting for your country, itís better to take the fight to them in the conventional sense, in their own backyard.  Seize the initiative (make them react to you rather than the other way around).  Unfortunately, Americans havenít learned that you donít stop fighting until the fighting is done.  Most Americans donít understand the threat that Islam is to their way of life.  Hell, they donít understand how the current President threatens their way of life.  The curse of a free society is Ignorance and Apathy.  Itís usually not until the last moment they realize the danger.  They give up too easily.  Even in WWII, Americans were very close to giving up.  I think that if the invasion of Japan took place, the American will would have wavered.

Quote

and it's not matter of opinion it's matter of right and wrong and which side you take
i doubt having one opinion could change the reality that 1+1=2 .. even if i think it's 11 it doesn't change the answer
Itís more complex than that.  An invader bent on conquest is not always in the wrong.  This is what the history books say.  That is the history of Islam.  This is the history of just about every nation in the world of the past and present.  Itís a matter of will.  The two systems are incompatible and this planet is getting too small for both.  Only one can win out.  The problem is that Islam is unorganized and the West canít find the will.  In my eyes this is the recipe for greater death and destruction.

I would think that if the US took Bin Ladenís advice and converted to Islam, that still wouldnít change anything.  Because the US would follow its own path and make Islam its own leaving all the other Muslim nations in the dust.  This wouldnít solve anything as the reasons for terrorism would still exist.  Unemployment, disenfranchisement, no upward mobility, and jealousy of the wealth of America.

Quote

however am not assyrian am proud to be arab and never forget my kurdish roots eaither so thank you i'll pass being assyrian
i actually i don't i'll enjoy being one
and syria is not the hertiage of assyrians .. cannaites were here thousands of years B.C
while assyrians arrived in times of christ .. you get the idea ?
that makes them the newbies in syria ..
Uhmmm, I donít think so.  The Assyrians date back to the late 25th Century bce.  I know about the Kurdistan dream and I wish you well in that endeavor.  But being Kurd means that your ancestry is Persian that mixed (via invasion) with the Assyrian peoples.  And the Kurds have never been too kind toward the Armenians.  Iíve always considered that the Palestinians never had a legitimate claim but are used to distract from the Kurds that do.  Primarily because a Kurdistan would carve portions from Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria.  But we are getting away from religious aspects.  Donít want to get Lilly mad at me  :)

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#105    Lion6969

Lion6969

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:23 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 01 April 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

It's getting late now, but I'll list a few.  The Almoravids, The Seljuks The Ottomans, The Algerians, The Tunisians, And the stateless Bin Laden.

Lmao!!! Are we going back in history or are we talking contemporary times? Historically my friend Europe under the guise of secularism in their forms of fascism, communism and imperialism have caused more human misery death and carnage than the history of religions put together not just Islam! You still out did them!

When I said name me one muslim soldier or army which has invaded a western country and imposed Islam, I can list you 40 or more European and other non Muslim nations who have their military occupying muslim lands imposing secularism. So wake up to reality!





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