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#1    dougeaton

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:42 PM

Go for it

People seek to live in hope and I do not fight that desire,
faith gives meaning something I wish I had,
their deaths for them are like a doorway into somewhere else
how I wish that were true,
yet for all my wanting toÖ I can't believe.

It is not for rational reasons, but emotional I believe,
I rage against the death of the young,
those who are innocent at the hands of monsters,
who were once young themselves but turned by abuse,
who spread the seed of pain growing each generation.

I hate death but also thirst for it,
the peace of nothingness that I long for and fear,
no peace in a world were sleep is fitful,
yet I wish I could believe but cannot.

What a nightmare for someone like me
to live over an abyss,
I am happy that few think like me,
for it is a corner I would wish on no one.

I tire of fundamentalist with their quotes,
of atheist with their arrogance and lack of self knowledge,
as if they are not part of the problem like the rest of us.

Which is worse I don't know?
though fanatical atheist are the new hate mongers,
who sound alike,
how is it they call themselves free thinkers
when others are not allowed to think the way they want
without being mocked and abused,
yes they no better,
in fact worse than the fundie's,
for these atheist, brag about their superior intelligence,
but I have not seen that to be true.

So for those who have faith,
who allow others to be,
good for you,
keep it up,
perhaps you are what will get us through this
in the end.

I hope I am wrong, perhaps even praying that this is so.

For those who or on the verge of faith,
go for it, I wish I could.

Edited by dougeaton, 25 March 2012 - 11:44 PM.

If you must have  finale absolute answers, then become an  hard nosed atheist or a fundie of any religion, both seem to be black and white thinkers, and have only contempt for those who think differently.

#2    TheNightOwl

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:25 AM

I agree and can empathize with the things expressed here. I am an agnostic myself. I used to lean to more of an atheist side. Sometimes I could be sort of a jerk when talking to religious people or considering a religious viewpoint. It's a real shame that the new atheism has essentially become a fundamentalist religion itself.

Anyway, as someone who leaned atheist, sometimes I would consider there being no God, and all of the other ramifications that came with it, and I would feel absolutely miserable. I decided to open myself up to the viewpoints of those with faith. I am more in the middle now, perhaps even leaning theist. I accepted that it's very possible that there are things bigger, or on a different level than me out there.

I rambled a little above, I hope it makes sense.


#3    markdohle

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:26 PM

View PostTheNightOwl, on 26 March 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

I agree and can empathize with the things expressed here. I am an agnostic myself. I used to lean to more of an atheist side. Sometimes I could be sort of a jerk when talking to religious people or considering a religious viewpoint. It's a real shame that the new atheism has essentially become a fundamentalist religion itself.

Anyway, as someone who leaned atheist, sometimes I would consider there being no God, and all of the other ramifications that came with it, and I would feel absolutely miserable. I decided to open myself up to the viewpoints of those with faith. I am more in the middle now, perhaps even leaning theist. I accepted that it's very possible that there are things bigger, or on a different level than me out there.

I rambled a little above, I hope it makes sense.

Well I am sure Doug will be pleased with this, he does not get much support from the 'free thought' community.

Peace
Mark


#4    Parsip

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:31 PM

View PostTheNightOwl, on 26 March 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

I agree and can empathize with the things expressed here. I am an agnostic myself. I used to lean to more of an atheist side. Sometimes I could be sort of a jerk when talking to religious people or considering a religious viewpoint. It's a real shame that the new atheism has essentially become a fundamentalist religion itself.

I agree as well. Religious people, especially Western Christians, are the kindest people I've known, and it's not difficult to see the amount of good that religion has done. It's clear to me that religion is generally a force for good. I can't understand how some atheists viciously attempt to destroy innocent, harmless people's faith, even if they were holding on to that faith during times of hardship, with no hint of shame or remorse. They claim that religion is dangerous, but their evidence is simply a few examples of political acts disguised as religious ones.


#5    markdohle

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostParsip, on 26 March 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I agree as well. Religious people, especially Western Christians, are the kindest people I've known, and it's not difficult to see the amount of good that religion has done. It's clear to me that religion is generally a force for good. I can't understand how some atheists viciously attempt to destroy innocent, harmless people's faith, even if they were holding on to that faith during times of hardship, with no hint of shame or remorse. They claim that religion is dangerous, but their evidence is simply a few examples of political acts disguised as religious ones.

Well said, my friend doug is good in how he expresses his anger and angst.

Peace
mark


#6    TheNightOwl

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:47 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 26 March 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Well I am sure Doug will be pleased with this, he does not get much support from the 'free thought' community.

Peace
Mark

Yep, the "free thought" community seems to have as of late become the "take the opposite viewpoint because it's cool" community.


View PostParsip, on 26 March 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I agree as well. Religious people, especially Western Christians, are the kindest people I've known, and it's not difficult to see the amount of good that religion has done. It's clear to me that religion is generally a force for good. I can't understand how some atheists viciously attempt to destroy innocent, harmless people's faith, even if they were holding on to that faith during times of hardship, with no hint of shame or remorse. They claim that religion is dangerous, but their evidence is simply a few examples of political acts disguised as religious ones.

Exactly what I mean. Many of the supposed instances of "religion causing harm" that atheists point out are generally politically motivated acts disguised as religious ones. Want territory? No problem. Tell your people that God wants you to take it. Stuff like that.

I have met many religious people who are very good people. These are usually the ones who have studied their faith and know it well. Granted, I've also met the vindictive types. I was once told that "God will punish me" because I'm not a creationist. Despite all this, like you said, religion is generally a good force, which has really helped the world with teachings such as "love thy neighbor," etc.

A lot of these atheists hatred towards religion seems to stem from anger towards ignorant type religious people than the religion itself. But just because some religious people are ignorant and use their religion to be hateful, doesn't mean that that is what is at the heart of the religion itself, if that makes sense.

I think agnosticism is really the only way to go, whether it's being an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. Closing your mind off and only accepting one viewpoint (no matter what it is) is ignorant and stupid.


#7    and then

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:03 AM

View Postdougeaton, on 25 March 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Go for it

People seek to live in hope and I do not fight that desire,
faith gives meaning something I wish I had,
their deaths for them are like a doorway into somewhere else
how I wish that were true,
yet for all my wanting toÖ I can't believe.

It is not for rational reasons, but emotional I believe,
I rage against the death of the young,
those who are innocent at the hands of monsters,
who were once young themselves but turned by abuse,
who spread the seed of pain growing each generation.

I hate death but also thirst for it,
the peace of nothingness that I long for and fear,
no peace in a world were sleep is fitful,
yet I wish I could believe but cannot.

What a nightmare for someone like me
to live over an abyss,
I am happy that few think like me,
for it is a corner I would wish on no one.

I tire of fundamentalist with their quotes,
of atheist with their arrogance and lack of self knowledge,
as if they are not part of the problem like the rest of us.

Which is worse I don't know?
though fanatical atheist are the new hate mongers,
who sound alike,
how is it they call themselves free thinkers
when others are not allowed to think the way they want
without being mocked and abused,
yes they no better,
in fact worse than the fundie's,
for these atheist, brag about their superior intelligence,
but I have not seen that to be true.

So for those who have faith,
who allow others to be,
good for you,
keep it up,
perhaps you are what will get us through this
in the end.

I hope I am wrong, perhaps even praying that this is so.

For those who or on the verge of faith,
go for it, I wish I could.
I applaud you.  This is as reasonable a statement as I have ever heard from one who doesn't claim faith or demand me to renounce mine.  Thank you.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#8    RavenHawk

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:58 PM

View Postdougeaton, on 25 March 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Go for it
What a beautiful, honest, touching poem.  How can someone without faith create such beauty?  It canít be done.  I think you have more faith than a lot of people here.  In many ways I believe the same as you but I donít doubt my faith (or Iíve gotten past that crisis).  And perhaps thatís all that one needs to do and not get caught up in this world.  I think that would be the difference between us.  I accept my faith and have come to terms with this world.  The death and pain in this world is not because of GOD but because of us.  The world is what we make of it.  Even in GODís name we make a mess of things.  This is very tiring to the spirit.  Youíre right, there are monsters among us.  Sometimes they are us and sometimes they are indeed monsters or as Jesus said, Tares.  Living flesh with no conscience, who can never be touched by your words.  Oh doubting Thomas, I wish more were like you.  Through questioning our own faith, we grow stronger.  Never give up seeking for yourself.  I know you will find it.  

Peace

"I don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato
"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#9    Beany

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 03:41 AM

Sure, beauty can be created without faith. Make dinner for an elder. Take food to your soup kitchen. Give a kind word & smile to the next homeless person you meet. Call your brother or sister and make amends. Read a book of poetry. Become a Big Brother or Big Sister. Go for a hike. Paint your bedroom. Plant some flowers. Take a dog for a long walk. Go fishing. Express gratitude for what you've been given. There're all kinds of ways of having a meaningful, beautiful life that requires no spiritual or religious faith whatsoever. Value isn't demonstrated by what one thinks or believes or says, it's demonstrated by what we do, and everyone of us can be an asset to the planet, to help bring about healing, if that is our intention.


#10    RavenHawk

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:07 PM

View PostBeany, on 28 March 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Sure, beauty can be created without faith.
Perhaps but only by imitation.  It really isnít the works or the creation but the act of which is key.  This goes directly to the verse ďFaith without works is deadĒ and often is misunderstood.  Many think that all you need to do is perform good works but you canít buy your way into Heaven.  The true meaning of that verse is that if you have faith then the free expression of it is the act of good works.  If your faith is dead, then you do not perform good works without external motivation.  Again, you can go through the motions and force creativity but itís just not the same.  One example would be the cartoon, ďThe Dot and the LineĒ.  It is the scribble that forced creativity and lacked faith and in the end, its works were still nothing.  Love, creativity, good works, faith are all part of the same thing.  Many of the most creative people are tormented and depressed and yet, it is their faith that allows that creativity to express itself.  Unfortunately, many of them succumb to the Dark Energy but their faith was real.  If you say you are very creative but are without faith, then Iíd have to say that maybe you do have faith but the Dark Energy keeps you from seeing it.  Only you will know for sure.  To thy own self be true.

Quote

Make dinner for an elder. Take food to your soup kitchen. Give a kind word & smile to the next homeless person you meet. Call your brother or sister and make amends. Read a book of poetry. Become a Big Brother or Big Sister. Go for a hike. Paint your bedroom. Plant some flowers. Take a dog for a long walk. Go fishing. Express gratitude for what you've been given. There're all kinds of ways of having a meaningful, beautiful life that requires no spiritual or religious faith whatsoever. Value isn't demonstrated by what one thinks or believes or says, it's demonstrated by what we do, and everyone of us can be an asset to the planet, to help bring about healing, if that is our intention.
All of these things you list are spiritual.  Many of these are a simple basic core of spirituality.  The value begins with what we believe and that belief expresses itself in acts.  Intention is another part of faith and it is probably the clearest indicator if oneís faith is real or not.  Do people perform good works because the intent is something that comes from a love deep within or is the intent to do these things because you donít desire a bad reputation or you just want to be part of the group?  A person that has done many deeds with no faith has done less than a person of faith that has performed only one deed.

"I don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato
"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato




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