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Mega Birds Fly Across The Full Moon Footage


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#91    Farmerboy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

I cant understand where you get that they were less well adapted than any other species, and Im sure if such a strategy was so successful in these areas, let alone viable that if would have evolved in other species Antarctic dinosaurs

I'm nearly waiting for them to end up as aliens that arrived on his darkmatter comet sent by a race of spacehyraxes


#92    JesseCuster

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:50 PM

Okay, let's have some fun with numbers.

What's being proposed is a giant flying creature that can flap it's wings so fast, the wings can break the sound barrier, allowing said fantastical creature to evade sharks jumping out of the water to try and eat it (do sharks ever do that?).

Let's take a guess and imagine that from the distance from the top of the wingbeat to the bottom is 10ft (3m) and that's being generous as the largest known flying birds have a wingspan of approximately that distance and thus would have a much shorter distance from top to bottom of the wingbeat. This bird/owl/raptor/reptile thing would need to go from a gliding wing that isn't moving at all to a wing travelling at least 770 mph (330m/s) in a distance of 3 meters in order for the wing tips to break the sound barrier.

A back of the envelope calculation reveals that the wing tips would need to accelerate at 18,000 meters per second squared (against air resistance!) to go from zero to the speed of sound in that distance! Posted Image  I wonder what kind of wattage wing muscles would need to generate to generate that!  It's clear Mr.-in-a-fog has no idea just how utterly silly the things he's proposing are.

Edited by Archimedes, 11 April 2012 - 06:51 PM.

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#93    QuiteContrary

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:11 PM

View PostArchimedes, on 11 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Okay, let's have some fun with numbers.

What's being proposed is a giant flying creature that can flap it's wings so fast, the wings can break the sound barrier, allowing said fantastical creature to evade sharks jumping out of the water to try and eat it (do sharks ever do that?).

Let's take a guess and imagine that from the distance from the top of the wingbeat to the bottom is 10ft (3m) and that's being generous as the largest known flying birds have a wingspan of approximately that distance and thus would have a much shorter distance from top to bottom of the wingbeat. This bird/owl/raptor/reptile thing would need to go from a gliding wing that isn't moving at all to a wing travelling at least 770 mph (330m/s) in a distance of 3 meters in order for the wing tips to break the sound barrier.

A back of the envelope calculation reveals that the wing tips would need to accelerate at 18,000 meters per second squared (against air resistance!) to go from zero to the speed of sound in that distance! Posted Image  I wonder what kind of wattage wing muscles would need to generate to generate that!  It's clear Mr.-in-a-fog has no idea just how utterly silly the things he's proposing are.

Awww, don't bring in science or math. It ruins the whole crypto vibe. :cry:

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#94    NatureBoff

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:35 AM

View PostFarmerboy, on 11 April 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

I cant understand where you get that they were less well adapted than any other species, and Im sure if such a strategy was so successful in these areas, let alone viable that if would have evolved in other species Antarctic dinosaurs
The wikipedia page you need to read is South Polar dinosaurs

Quote

The South Polar dinosaurs proliferated during the Early Cretaceous (145-100 Ma) while the continent of Australia was still linked to Antarctica to form East Gondwana, a continent that had rifted from Africa and drifted southward. Much of this southern continent lay inside the Antarctic Circle, and the climate there was unlike any that exists today. This led to fauna and flora that were unique to the time. Much of what is known about the fauna of Polar Australia comes from fossil beds found in Dinosaur Cove and Flat Rocks on the Victorian coast of southeast Australia.

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These studies show that during the Cretaceous there were no polar ice caps, and forests would have extended all the way to the South Pole, and life could have flourished there during the summer. However, the Earth's axial tilt means that the regions inside the Antarctic circle would still have experienced a polar night: a period of sunless darkness and cold of up to six months, during which only the hardiest life forms could survive. This combination of a habitable terrain with a long polar night is an ecological circumstance that has no present day analogue.

Quote

Mammals, including monotremes and possible placentals, have been found, and fragmentary remains of flying pterosaurs. The teeth of plesiosaurs (long-necked fish-eating reptiles) have also been found, suggesting that they lived in the rivers of Gondwana. Lungfish and possible crocodile teeth have also been found; both taxa are associated with distinctly non-polar conditions today, which further confuses our understanding of the climatic conditions of these fossil localities.
Dinosaur fossils are rare in Australia, but dinosaurs found in the Victorian deposits include relics of the Jurassic period, such as a relative of Allosaurus, ornithomimosaurs, ankylosaurs, and hypsilophodont- like dinosaurs, the commonest and most diverse group found thus far. The hypsilophodont-like dinosaurs provide a clue to the habits of the dinosaurs that lived in these polar environments: one skull is interpreted as having 'large eyes', and casts of the brain of one individual has been interpreted as showing enlarged optic lobes. This interpretation has been used as a supporting argument for the theory that these dinosaurs may have had acute night vision; if this were the case it may suggest that the hypsilophodont-like dinosaurs may have lived in the polar areas for most if not all of the year, including the weeks or months-long polar night.

Note that the majority of information we have is from fossils of SE Australia and not Antarctica itself! Incidentally, I believe that the corrosive effect of rainwater and the ocean currnets made channels between the continents which sperated them and *NOT* continental drift. There's *NO* real evidence for plate techtonics if you look at the evidence with a critical eye. (Did water create itself on Earth at this time, or was it all deposited by icey comets??)

Edited by tailormaneinafog, 12 April 2012 - 11:51 AM.

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.

#95    NatureBoff

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

View PostArchimedes, on 11 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Okay, let's have some fun with numbers.

What's being proposed is a giant flying creature that can flap it's wings so fast, the wings can break the sound barrier, allowing said fantastical creature to evade sharks jumping out of the water to try and eat it (do sharks ever do that?).

Let's take a guess and imagine that from the distance from the top of the wingbeat to the bottom is 10ft (3m) and that's being generous as the largest known flying birds have a wingspan of approximately that distance and thus would have a much shorter distance from top to bottom of the wingbeat. This bird/owl/raptor/reptile thing would need to go from a gliding wing that isn't moving at all to a wing travelling at least 770 mph (330m/s) in a distance of 3 meters in order for the wing tips to break the sound barrier.
No, no, no! The wings would move at the shoulder joint in a cyclic motion, not just a fixed flapping motion. The muscles and wing tips only need to move at a speed of around 770mph. This translates to a flight body speed of the same value if the reaction force against the air medium is indeed at a maximum.

I'm proposing a new kind of shoulder joint for this species of microraptor (or pterosaur perhaps). I'll scan my explanatory sketches tomorrow hopefully.

Edited by tailormaneinafog, 12 April 2012 - 11:48 AM.

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.

#96    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:01 PM

View Posttailormaneinafog, on 12 April 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

No, no, no! The wings would move at the shoulder joint in a cyclic motion, not just a fixed flapping motion. The muscles and wing tips only need to move at a speed of around 770mph. This translates to a flight body speed of the same value if the reaction force against the air medium is indeed at a maximum.

I'm proposing a new kind of shoulder joint for this species of microraptor (or pterosaur perhaps). I'll scan my explanatory sketches tomorrow hopefully.

I will bet it will look like a helicopter, lol.


#97    NatureBoff

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:12 PM

View PostArchimedes, on 11 April 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

tailormaneinafog's creatures are all amazing for evolving things that nothing else has ever evolved.

Birds, insects, pterosaurs and bats all evolved flight that uses flapping wings, but his creatures use super-duper fast flapping webbed feet or jet propulsion or whatever for supersonic flight, and he knows this, despite having never seen the creature in question and despite no-one studying the creature to figure out how it flies.

The fastest known birds can fly in level flight at c. 100mph.  The fastest known speed for birds is 200+mph fo a peregrine falcon, when in a dive (i.e. with gravity to help it come down really fast).  What tailormaneinafog is suggesting is a bird that can fly at supersonic speeds (that's over 750 mph) upwards, against gravity.  Ludicrous!

And all based on extreme extrapolation from various eye-witness reports and sketches from all over the world that describe all sorts of different flying creatures.
You need to broaden your horizons. Bats have the fastest muscles of all mammals

Quote

Researchers at the University of Southern Denmark have now found the reason why the bat is such a good hunter. Extremely fast muscles in the bat’s larynx can contract 200 times a second, and it emits a sound every time. These muscles are the fastest muscles ever found in mammals.
...
“The bat’s super-quick muscles are 100 times faster than the muscles that humans use when blinking,” says Assistant Professor Coen Elemans of the Institute of Biology at the University of Southern Denmark, who led the research. “These muscles are still 20 times slower than the muscles in the bat’s larynx.”
...
“When we find extremely quick muscles in several different animal species that are only distantly related, we must ask ourselves: have super-quick muscles been developed individually several times? Or were these muscles developed many millions of years ago and subsequently transmitted in several different branches of the animal kingdom?” muses Elemans.
...
It was the development of super-quick muscles that has made the bat a successful species when the first bats conquered the night sky some 50 million years ago.

At that time the air was filled with insects and nothing ate them. The bats found a niche in the eco-system then, and this resulted in an explosion in the number of bats.

An avian in Antartica achieved the same feat imo!

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.

#98    silentforce

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:16 PM

So now this thing isn't a bird or a reptile it's now a mammal? Please make up your mind.


#99    JesseCuster

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:29 PM

What the...?

What you just posted has nothing to do with huge flying creature being able to fly or beat their wings at 800mph.   What you just posted was about tiny specialised muscles in a bat that allow it to echolocate insects.

The creature you are proposing has not "achieved the same feat" because you aren't proposing it has specialised fast muscles for creating tiny sound pulses - you are talking about specialised fast muscles that allow a creature to fly at 800 miles per hour!  There's no comparison between the two!  That's like me claiming that I can bench press 100kg 200 times in a minute and when asked for evidence pointing out that I can blink 200 times in a minute.

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#100    JesseCuster

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:39 PM

Very small flying creatures can flap their wings very fast for simple reasons.

If you take a small flying creature like a hummingbird and scale it upwards, if you make it 10 times wider and 10 times longer, it can generate 100 times as much lift because that's how much the wing surface area goes up by.  However, it now has to lift 1000 times the weight because when you scale up a 3d object, the surface area goes up by the square of the amount you scale it, but the volume (and therefore the weight) goes up by the cube of the amount you scale it.  The muscles would need to be 10 times more efficient in order to achieve the same effect.

That's why insects and hummingbirds can hover by beating their wings really fast.  It's also why large flying creatures like eagles and albatrosses do a lot of gliding with minimal wing beats or beat their wings relatively slow compared with much smaller flying creatures.  There are no known large flying animals that can beat their wings like crazy at 800 miles per hour and that's for very simple reasons to do with basic physics.

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#101    vitruvian12

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:55 PM

View Posttailormaneinafog, on 12 April 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

The wikipedia page you need to read is South Polar dinosaurs





Note that the majority of information we have is from fossils of SE Australia and not Antarctica itself! Incidentally, I believe that the corrosive effect of rainwater and the ocean currnets made channels between the continents which sperated them and *NOT* continental drift. There's *NO* real evidence for plate techtonics if you look at the evidence with a critical eye. (Did water create itself on Earth at this time, or was it all deposited by icey comets??)

In your previous post #78 you inplied that they may have flown all the way to australia.  You obviously didnt realize the two continents were connected at the time as your wiki page says.  Has it occurred to you fossils are found in australia rather than the antarctic because its not covered in ice?  
If rainwater separated the continents then what moves them?  It seems you want to move your insane conjecture to a new area.


#102    Englishgent

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:30 PM

View Posttailormaneinafog, on 12 April 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

The wikipedia page you need to read is South Polar dinosaurs





Note that the majority of information we have is from fossils of SE Australia and not Antarctica itself! Incidentally, I believe that the corrosive effect of rainwater and the ocean currnets made channels between the continents which sperated them and *NOT* continental drift. There's *NO* real evidence for plate techtonics if you look at the evidence with a critical eye. (Did water create itself on Earth at this time, or was it all deposited by icey comets??)

I cant believe what I am reading!
NO real evidence for plate tectonics?
How much more evidence do you need other than continental drfit, volcanoes and earthquakes?
Perhaps you explain your reasons as to why there is no evidence?
Sorry tailor but you are going from the sublime to the ridiculous. :wacko:


#103    JesseCuster

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:13 PM

View Posttailormaneinafog, on 12 April 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

No, no, no! The wings would move at the shoulder joint in a cyclic motion, not just a fixed flapping motion. The muscles and wing tips only need to move at a speed of around 770mph. This translates to a flight body speed of the same value if the reaction force against the air medium is indeed at a maximum.
You can word it anyway you want, you've still got wings moving at at least 770 miles per hour - cyclical motion, flapping motion, whatever.

You're not making any sense.  If the wings tips are moving at 770mph and the flight speed is the same, then the wing tips aren't moving relative to the body.  If you're proposing that that the bird's flight speed is 770mph then the wings must be moving through the air much faster than that so now you've made your proposal even more unbelievable.  The wing tips moving through the air at 770 mph cannot translate to the entire body of the creature moving that fast.  That's physically impossible.

You ever seen a bird fly?  The wing tips are always moving much faster than the flight speed gained by flapping them (or whatever made up flying method you are proposing). I was being generous by thinking that you were proposing the wing tips breaking the sound barrier but the bird not actually flying away that fast.  You've just dug your hole even deeper.

Quote

I'm proposing a new kind of shoulder joint for this species of microraptor (or pterosaur perhaps). I'll scan my explanatory sketches tomorrow hopefully.
Of course you are.  Every time an obvious objection is raised for one of your fantasy monsters you have a "proposal" to wave it away.




"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

#104    NatureBoff

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:39 AM

View PostEnglishgent, on 12 April 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I cant believe what I am reading!
NO real evidence for plate tectonics?
How much more evidence do you need other than continental drfit, volcanoes and earthquakes?
Perhaps you explain your reasons as to why there is no evidence?
Sorry tailor but you are going from the sublime to the ridiculous. :wacko:
It's a big statement, yes, but one which I can back up with confidence. The mid-ocean spreading which shows magnetic pole reversals is *claimed* to be evidence of plate movement. This isn't the only possible explanation though. The magma wells up and spreads on the stationery plate, yes, but the plate doesn't move! Isn't that a simpler viable alternative??

Here's someone else who has looked at the *supposed* evidence Continental Drift and the Age of the Earth

Quote

Conclusion:
In spite of what we have been told by the mass media and "science" publications, there is no strong evidence (much less proof) that the continents have been drifting apart for millions of years, and in fact, the evidence suggests that they split up quite rapidly.  There is also no strong evidence that plate movements today could have produced the massive amount of Continental spreading that likely took place during the Flood along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.  For such massive plate movements were likely triggered by a large asteroid that hit the earth.  It is also doubtful that what caused the continents to separate along the  Mid-Atlantic Ridge 25 is still occurring today.  And although plate movements still occur, resulting in earthquakes, the evidence seems to suggest that such minor plate movements have only been taking place for the past several thousand years.


Edited by tailormaneinafog, 13 April 2012 - 10:58 AM.

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.

#105    NatureBoff

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:45 AM

View PostArchimedes, on 12 April 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

You can word it anyway you want, you've still got wings moving at at least 770 miles per hour - cyclical motion, flapping motion, whatever.

You're not making any sense.  If the wings tips are moving at 770mph and the flight speed is the same, then the wing tips aren't moving relative to the body.  If you're proposing that that the bird's flight speed is 770mph then the wings must be moving through the air much faster than that so now you've made your proposal even more unbelievable.  The wing tips moving through the air at 770 mph cannot translate to the entire body of the creature moving that fast.  That's physically impossible.

You ever seen a bird fly?  The wing tips are always moving much faster than the flight speed gained by flapping them (or whatever made up flying method you are proposing). I was being generous by thinking that you were proposing the wing tips breaking the sound barrier but the bird not actually flying away that fast.  You've just dug your hole even deeper.

Of course you are.  Every time an obvious objection is raised for one of your fantasy monsters you have a "proposal" to wave it away.
Slow down a bit and think laterally for a moment. You keep having the image of a regular bird wing movement, but I'm suggesting something different. The whole wing moves down from the shoulder, keeping the wing level from shoulder to tip relative to the body. The upward swing is a straight wing to give minimal air resistance. The motion is *different* to an insect wing in that it rotates onto it's 'underside' for the next wingbeat. The wing turns upside down again and again with each 'flap'. The curvature much change with each beat, in order to achieve the constant lift configuration. See the diagram as a starter point. Think about it a little before posting your response please.

(P.S if I had the money I'd patent this idea for a new flying machine!)

Attached Files


Edited by tailormaneinafog, 13 April 2012 - 10:47 AM.

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.




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