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Fossil foot bones hint at mystery walker


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#16    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 05:19 PM

View PostOverSword, on 30 March 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

So must be a human ancestor???  Not buying it.  attempt for funding for further digs in order to prove the hypothesis? that I will buy.

Any hominin is a human ancestor. It's certainly in the same family, taxonomically speaking.
It is also noted in the article that they do not have enough data to classify a new species, but the bones are clear that it is a hominin.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 30 March 2012 - 05:20 PM.

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#17    Swede

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:41 PM

View PostOverSword, on 30 March 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

So must be a human ancestor???  Not buying it.  attempt for funding for further digs in order to prove the hypothesis? that I will buy.

There may be a error by the reporter in the earlier part of the report. As a matter of definition:

Hominid = Humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and extinct ancestors.

Hominin = Species after the genus Homo diverged from chimpanzees.

The quotes from the authors of the report include the following:

"If you look at the lateral metatarsal head along with the proximal toe  bone, the phalanx - that particular joint is really unique in hominids,"  explained team member Dr Bruce Latimer of Case Western Reserve  University, US.

"But obviously we cannot put it into the Ardipithecus genus or call it a ramidus species because we do not have any craniodental elements associated with this foot".
[Note Genus reference].

It is a significant discovery because it demonstrates there was more  than one pre-human species living in East Africa between three and four  million years ago, each with its own method of moving around
.  [From writer of article]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-17533826

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#18    Cassea

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:06 AM

How do they know this is not just a deformed human? :blink:   Seems like a real leap.  I doubt it will stand up to peer review.

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#19    Leonardo

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:15 AM

View PostOverSword, on 30 March 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

So must be a human ancestor???  Not buying it.  attempt for funding for further digs in order to prove the hypothesis? that I will buy.

I don't believe the article quotes any of the scientists making a claim the find is "a human ancestor"? Where did you get this information from?

View PostCassea, on 31 March 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

How do they know this is not just a deformed human? :blink:   Seems like a real leap.  I doubt it will stand up to peer review.

The species Homo sapiens sapiens (us) was unknown on the planet until ~ 200,000 years ago. This is the age of strata from which the earliest, archaic, form of our species has been recovered. While we cannot set an exact date for when our species evolved from it's direct ancestor (because that's not how evolution works) that date [~200,000 ybp] is, at present, the accepted date for "when our species evolved".

The fossils that were discovered and are talked about in this articles are from ~ 3.4 million years ago.

Edited by Leonardo, 31 March 2012 - 06:16 AM.

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#20    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:28 AM

View PostSwede, on 30 March 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

There may be a error by the reporter in the earlier part of the report. As a matter of definition:

Hominid = Humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and extinct ancestors.

Hominin = Species after the genus Homo diverged from chimpanzees.

The quotes from the authors of the report include the following:

"If you look at the lateral metatarsal head along with the proximal toe  bone, the phalanx - that particular joint is really unique in hominids,"  explained team member Dr Bruce Latimer of Case Western Reserve  University, US.

"But obviously we cannot put it into the Ardipithecus genus or call it a ramidus species because we do not have any craniodental elements associated with this foot".
[Note Genus reference].

It is a significant discovery because it demonstrates there was more  than one pre-human species living in East Africa between three and four  million years ago, each with its own method of moving around
.  [From writer of article]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-17533826

.

You are confusing your terminology.

Hominin is the replacement term for Hominid (austrolaphitecines, homo)  that has began to gain favor over the past few years while Hominini refers to the genus homo, and pan.


So you have the family Hominoids(human, chimp, gorilla, orangutan) which is is divided into the sub-families of Ponginae (orangutans) and Homininae (humans, chimps, gorillas). Homininae is further divided into Gorillini (gorilla) and Hominini (humans, chimps, bonobos). Hominini is further split into Panini (chimps and bonobos) and Hominin (humans and ancestors) which in recent years has begun to replace Hominid (humans and ancestors) as the accepted term.

Never take a test on this model. It is not fun.

Edit: Any time I mentioned human I was referring to the genus Homo and it's ancestors.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 31 March 2012 - 06:29 AM.

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#21    Arbenol68

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 31 March 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

So you have the family Hominoids(human, chimp, gorilla, orangutan) which is is divided into the sub-families of Ponginae (orangutans) and Homininae (humans, chimps, gorillas). Homininae is further divided into Gorillini (gorilla) and Hominini (humans, chimps, bonobos). Hominini is further split into Panini (chimps and bonobos) and Hominin (humans and ancestors) which in recent years has begun to replace Hominid (humans and ancestors) as the accepted term.

If you know all that without looking it up, then I'm mightily impressed, sir.


#22    Leonardo

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:47 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 31 March 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

You are confusing your terminology.

Hominin is the replacement term for Hominid (austrolaphitecines, homo)  that has began to gain favor over the past few years while Hominini refers to the genus homo, and pan.


So you have the family Hominoids(human, chimp, gorilla, orangutan) which is is divided into the sub-families of Ponginae (orangutans) and Homininae (humans, chimps, gorillas). Homininae is further divided into Gorillini (gorilla) and Hominini (humans, chimps, bonobos). Hominini is further split into Panini (chimps and bonobos) and Hominin (humans and ancestors) which in recent years has begun to replace Hominid (humans and ancestors) as the accepted term.

Never take a test on this model. It is not fun.

Edit: Any time I mentioned human I was referring to the genus Homo and it's ancestors.

Swede isn't wrong.

Here is an explanation of the current classification system.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#23    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:50 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 31 March 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

If you know all that without looking it up, then I'm mightily impressed, sir.

Study study study. If i'm not a work or school on, it's pretty much all I do. Even while on UM.
Learning Latin helped a lot because you have the root homin and you just add certain endings. If I can memorize all those damn declensions and all, I can get this.

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#24    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:52 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 31 March 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Swede isn't wrong.

Here is an explanation of the current classification system.

Your link is an 11 year old article. I'm going by what I learned last year and study 3 days a week.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 31 March 2012 - 06:56 AM.

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#25    Leonardo

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:10 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 31 March 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Your link is an 11 year old article. I'm going by what I learned last year and study 3 days a week.

Hominin is the term used to refer to members of the genii Homo, Ardapithecis, Australopithecus, Paranthropus and Kenyanthropus.

Do you agree with the above?

If so, how was Swede's comment...

Quote

Hominin = Species after the genus Homo diverged from chimpanzees.

...contrary to that definition?

Hominid is the term used to refer to all the above, plus the Great Apes and all their ancestors.

Again, do you agree with that definition?

If so, how is Swede's comment...

Quote

Hominid = Humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and extinct ancestors.

...contrary, except that he left out the Orang's and Bonobo's?

Edited by Leonardo, 31 March 2012 - 09:11 AM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#26    ChrLzs

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 29 March 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

.. I love that we keep finding new hominins. That's what, 3 in the last 12 months or so?

??  3 added hominins?  Aren't ad hominins against the forum rules?



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#27    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 31 March 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Hominin is the term used to refer to members of the genii Homo, Ardapithecis, Australopithecus, Paranthropus and Kenyanthropus.

Do you agree with the above?

If so, how was Swede's comment...



...contrary to that definition?

Hominid is the term used to refer to all the above, plus the Great Apes and all their ancestors.

Again, do you agree with that definition?

If so, how is Swede's comment...



...contrary, except that he left out the Orang's and Bonobo's?

As of right now, 2012, Hominini refers to humans (and ancestors, austros, paratha, ardi, etc) chimps and bonobos while Hominin replaces Hominid which used to refer to humans and chimps but now as Hominin only refers to humans and ancestors.
The terms and what they refer to constantly change as new animals are found and as Hominoid DNA is further studied.

I was just pointing out a technical error in what is a very confusing and constantly changing classification system.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 01 April 2012 - 05:27 AM.

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#28    Leonardo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:36 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 01 April 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

As of right now, 2012, Hominini refers to humans (and ancestors, austros, paratha, ardi, etc) chimps and bonobos while Hominin replaces Hominid which used to refer to humans and chimps but now as Hominin only refers to humans and ancestors.
The terms and what they refer to constantly change as new animals are found and as Hominoid DNA is further studied.

I was just pointing out a technical error in what is a very confusing and constantly changing classification system.

My emphasis.

Which is fine, as this is agrees with what both Swede and my 11-year old link stated. As for Hominid, is that term now used as reference to the group including all the Hominins plus all the other Great Apes and their ancestors?

Or is your concern that it wasn't the genus Homo which diverged from the common ancestor of hominins and Pan? I accept Swede's description of hominin's was not exacting, but it gave the general idea of what the term represents.

Edited by Leonardo, 01 April 2012 - 06:40 AM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#29    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 01 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

My emphasis.

Which is fine, as this is agrees with what both Swede and my 11-year old link stated. As for Hominid, is that term now used as reference to the group including all the Hominins plus all the other Great Apes and their ancestors?
Hominid isn't being used anymore. Hominin has replaced it.

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#30    Swede

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 01 April 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Hominid isn't being used anymore. Hominin has replaced it.

Not necessarily:

http://users.rcn.com...P/Primates.html

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