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BNP wins east London council seat


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#31    Erikl

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 02:15 PM

On the other hand, the only place in the world where communism works in the utopian way is in the kibbutz grin2.gif

Edited by Erikl, 22 September 2004 - 02:15 PM.

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#32    Talon

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 08:52 PM

QUOTE
The labour camps, the mass eradication of the bourgeoisie, the extreme atheism which persecuted Christians and Jews alike, and the anti-Semitism are all in Marx's works.
The communism you grown to hear about is the result of soviet propganda.
Communism and fascism are very close.


So wrong tongue.gif Marx's books actually read more like a guild to Democracy (remember he wrote at a time when only 10% of the population could vote) 'Dictatorship of the Masses' actually just means a government voted in by the masses... ie. a democracy. He indeed hated religion, but I don't see him saying they should be killed, nethier was he anti-Semitic just because he converted from Jeudism to Athiesm, you forget more leading Communists in both Russia and Germany at the beginning of the century were Jews.... its not an anti-Semtic ideology. Lastly he didn't talk about killing middle classes etc (he was muddle class, most leaders of pre-1918 communist groups were middle-class... and they weren't sucidial) he talking about removing the class system so all classes became the same. Its not his fault if Lenin, Stalin etc warped his ideals.

QUOTE
Ahh true very true however the peopel were asked about communism not a return to the fascist puppet that stalinism was.


Proper communism. Not possible until they go through Capitalism and socialism.

[QUOTE]Was it marx that said "to have true communism we must first have capitalism", dunno or was it durkheim. TAlon you'll know??

Yep, said it was a necessary evil that had to be done. Socialism and communism could only provide for the workers by the industrial methods of production produced under capitalism... which unfortuanatly involved a lot of blood, sweat and tears. Then they could revolt and take it over and share it will all society.
Leninism messed up and claimed it would happen in agricultural societies under fuel lords rather than industrial capitalists.... which just ended in people starving, and then Stalin working people to death in an attempt to industrialise in 5 years. Then along came Stalin, and another mess. He beleived Revlution would occur in a single nation, which would become strog and then take over the rest of the nations through forced revolution.... er no... Marx was against this because he acurately beleive all nations had to go comunist otherwise the high classes (i.e. the best and brightest, richest etc) would just flee to a capitalist society and leave in ruin.

Guess would was right: Marx, Lenin, or Stalin?


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#33    Erikl

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 09:16 PM

Talon, the only place I've seen where Communism in the way you portray it exists, is in Israeli kibbutz.
Every kibbutz is an autonomic town, with seperate economic system from that of the rest of Israel.
It is governed by a direct democracy.
It's society dedicated to mutual aid and social justice.
It is a socioeconomic system based on the principle of joint ownership of property, equality and cooperation of production, consumption and education.
It is the fulfillment of the idea "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".
It wasn't forced on the population - the population chosed to live there.

There are 247 Kibbutzim (plural of Kibbutz) in Israel today.
The majority of them are atheists (as true socialists are), but a large part of them are orthodox kibbutzim (which probably causes Marx to turn in his grave). grin2.gif

When I was younger, I stayed at the kibbutz during the summer (my uncles live in a kibbutz), and it always susprised me how communism worked there fluently thumbsup.gif

And this system is working for 95 years (the first kibbutz was built in 1909).

But then again, I don't see it working anywhere else in world, so go figure...

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#34    Talon

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 09:21 PM

QUOTE
But then again, I don't see it working anywhere else in world, so go figure...


As I said, thats because Lenin and Stalin corrupted it. As I've already said, Communism can only work in industrialised nations and only if all industrialised nations follow the ideology.

Anyway, modern democracies with social schemes actually fit closely to semi-socialism... just if they nationalised more industries. disgust.gif

Edited by Talon S., 22 September 2004 - 09:22 PM.

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#35    Erikl

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 09:37 PM

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As I said, thats because Lenin and Stalin corrupted it. As I've already said, Communism can only work in industrialised nations and only if all industrialised nations follow the ideology.


Might be that the Kibbutz wasn't affected by this because it was established before the Russian revolution of 1917....

QUOTE
Anyway, modern democracies with social schemes actually fit closely to semi-socialism... just if they nationalised more industries. disgust.gif

Maybe European countries should come and have a look at the Kibbutz, and learn from it, instead of looking to Stalin, Lenin and other evil communist regimes. thumbsup.gif

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#36    Talon

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 09:51 PM

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Maybe European countries should come and have a look at the Kibbutz, and learn from it, instead of looking to Stalin, Lenin and other evil communist regimes. 


But they don't tongue.gif, they look at capitalism

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#37    Erikl

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 11:51 PM

Which isn't bad in itself...

I'm all for capitalism, as it is the only large scale economy which doesn't fail.

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#38    Talon

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Posted 23 September 2004 - 06:41 AM

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Which isn't bad in itself...

I'm all for capitalism, as it is the only large scale economy which doesn't fail.


Ever really seen capitallism  tongue.gif Go back two hundreds or one hundred and fifty years and study capitalism, the trade union movements, occupational health etc, you'll all find fluffy version of capitalism we all know now that means companies producing goods and fighting each other for the cosumer is a trend from the 1960s onwards. Before and for a long time after that it took like left a long time to temper capitalism by fighting for ever right we take or granted, from tiolets at work to the 8-hour day to welfare.

I'd love to let these anti-leftist, capitalist-lovers go back to the last century, they wouldn't last one day laugh.gif

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#39    Erikl

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Posted 23 September 2004 - 08:49 AM

Talon, as you like to mention it so often on a different subject, that was a long time ago.
The same way modern democracy evolved, so did capitalism.
Just like in the last century women and non-white people didn't have voting rights, so was capitalism very un-pleasent to the little person.
But since about 1870, in Germany, to 1934 (the U.S - the last old-fashioned capitalist country back then) in the U.S, capitalism became more and more human-friendly.
Sure, it picked a lot from socialism.
But the adoption of some socialist agendas by capitalists gave to the world social-democracy, welfare state, etc.

Communism in large scale is not possible.
Maybe, as a first step, capitalism and communism could be living side by side (like in Israel - where the rest of the country is social-democrat, ie capitalist, while the kibbutzim are pure communist. 4% of Israel's population lives in the kibbutzim, btw), in small scale.

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#40    Talon

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Posted 23 September 2004 - 06:38 PM

QUOTE
Sure, it picked a lot from socialism.
But the adoption of some socialist agendas by capitalists gave to the world social-democracy, welfare state, etc.


Excatly the good parts evolved from the left... whgats the issue here  huh.gif


QUOTE
Communism in large scale is not possible.


Yeah... as I've already said about 5 times huh.gif

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#41    Talon

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 08:33 PM

Berlin bans extreme right march

The Berlin authorities have banned a march through the German capital by the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD), planned for Saturday.
"Anyone who uses incitement to separate people may not demonstrate in Berlin," said the city's interior minister Erhart Koerting.

The NPD picked up 9.2% of the vote in recent state elections in Saxony.

Its mottos for the Berlin march were to be "Berlin must stay German" and "Against Islamic centres in the city".

The NPD's success in Saxony meant it gained seats in a German state assembly for the first time since 1968.

The German government has described the NPD as a latter-day version of Hitler's Nazi Party and tried to ban it last year - a move rejected by the constitutional court.

Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder faces key local council elections in North-Rhine Westphalia on Sunday - Germany's most populous state.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3687488.stm


"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato




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