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Plant/human symbiosis & the fall of humanity


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#1    shpongled

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:27 PM

http://www.grahamhan...um/WrightT2.php

I'm curious to here what you all think of this new article/interview with Tony Wright that i made, which was just posted on graham hancocks website. Any thoughts/comments/questions are welcome..If you really don't want to read the interview theres a shorter pictorial explanation on the second page  ;)

It seems well supported by a lot of evidence from many fields, and oddly many reputable minds seem to be turning on to it; which is strange considering how simple it should be to refute.

The fascinating thing is that if there really is a problem with the develop and fuel of our neural system and we're chronically deficient in very complex bio-chemistry from the loss of plant symbiosis which has affected one side of the brain more than the other, then that implies an easy solution to our all of our complex global problems. A relatively easy fix to the condition would be well within the reach of our current capabilities, and simply bringing the issue to everyone's attention would halt them almost immediately (it'd be easy to prove/disprove)

Edited by shpongled, 31 March 2012 - 02:29 PM.


#2    Leonardo

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:51 PM

To be honest, I wouldn't read much further than the opening quote from Terence McKenna which reads...

Quote

I believe that the lost secret of human emergence..the undefined catalyst that took a very bright monkey and turned that species into a self-reflecting dreamer..that catalyst has to be sought in these alkaloids in the food chain that were catalyzing higher states of intellectual activity.

...and speaks of a profound ignorance of our own neurochemistry. With all the natural opiates that are produced in our brains for any number of reasons, there is no need to presume a chemical catalyser for "higher states of intellectual activity" has to be looked for anywhere outside our own bodies.

Saying that, and forgive my rudeness for not welcoming you first, welcome to UM, shpongled. I hope you will find your stay here entertaining and educational.

Edited by Leonardo, 31 March 2012 - 04:54 PM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#3    shpongled

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:27 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 31 March 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

To be honest, I wouldn't read much further than the opening quote from Terence McKenna which reads...



...and speaks of a profound ignorance of our own neurochemistry. With all the natural opiates that are produced in our brains for any number of reasons, there is no need to presume a chemical catalyser for "higher states of intellectual activity" has to be looked for anywhere outside our own bodies.

Saying that, and forgive my rudeness for not welcoming you first, welcome to UM, shpongled. I hope you will find your stay here entertaining and educational.

McKenna was hardly ignorant of neurochemistry. The biological mechanisms supporting the scenario outlined are actually very sound and relatively straightforward. And we do know for a fact that the chemicals in food are absolutely vital to the structural integrity, development, and functioning of our neural system. Which is scary considering we were flooding our brains with the most complex assortment of plant chemicals for millions of years in Africa, and now expect to build the most complex and chemically sensitive thing in the known universe out of "junk" and have it work properly.

This is why in the article i cite how these materials can not only influence all this but brain size as well , with the diet of the mother having a huge impact on what develops since this is the most critical stage..These chemicals have many huge affects on our neural/endocrine/immune system but most importantly perhaps is that they are transcription modifiers- meaning that influence how the DNA is read; which drastically alters what develops.

Even blueberries have been shown to improve memory..many improve cognition..the list goes on and on


#4    Leonardo

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:43 PM

View Postshpongled, on 31 March 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

McKenna was hardly ignorant of neurochemistry. The biological mechanisms supporting the scenario outlined are actually very sound and relatively straightforward. And we do know for a fact that the chemicals in food are absolutely vital to the structural integrity, development, and functioning of our neural system. Which is scary considering we were flooding our brains with the most complex assortment of plant chemicals for millions of years in Africa, and now expect to build the most complex and chemically sensitive thing in the known universe out of "junk" and have it work properly.

This is why in the article i cite how these materials can not only influence all this but brain size as well , with the diet of the mother having a huge impact on what develops since this is the most critical stage..These chemicals have many huge affects on our neural/endocrine/immune system but most importantly perhaps is that they are transcription modifiers- meaning that influence how the DNA is read; which drastically alters what develops.

Even blueberries have been shown to improve memory..many improve cognition..the list goes on and on

A balanced diet is important for our well-being, but the quote - and by extension, the article - specifically mentioned alkaloids and suggested an unstated, but clear, reference to their psychoreactive properties. The article mentions 'psychedelics' to this very purpose.

We are not human because of drugs, and drugs did not enhance or even significantly influence our evolution - physical or psychological - except, perhaps, for the natural drugs that are produced in our own brains.

You are aware, I would hope, of the guidelines and rules this site operates under regarding the promotion of drug use?

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#5    shpongled

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:56 PM

I'm not promoting drug use by any means. This isn't the same as Terences theory but there are some similarities..But its deceiving to label it "drugs" when really we are talking about chemicals produced by our brains and present in all of our foods.

"We are not human because of drugs, and drugs did not enhance or even significantly influence our evolution - physical or psychological - except, perhaps, for the natural drugs that are produced in our own brains."


As i go into in the article, the chemicals in our all of our diets, especially a jungle diet with lots of raw plants, dramatically alter the activity of the chemicals in us that we naturally produce. Not only that but they also heavily influence the development of the very organs and cells that make those chemicals- thus modulating the environment even more


#6    Leonardo

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:12 PM

View Postshpongled, on 31 March 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I'm not promoting drug use by any means. This isn't the same as Terences theory but there are some similarities..But its deceiving to label it "drugs" when really we are talking about chemicals produced by our brains and present in all of our foods.

"We are not human because of drugs, and drugs did not enhance or even significantly influence our evolution - physical or psychological - except, perhaps, for the natural drugs that are produced in our own brains."


As i go into in the article, the chemicals in our all of our diets, especially a jungle diet with lots of raw plants, dramatically alter the activity of the chemicals in us that we naturally produce. Not only that but they also heavily influence the development of the very organs and cells that make those chemicals- thus modulating the environment even more

As I said, a balanced diet is essential to our well-being.

With reference to your association of the chemicals derived from plants and a "fall from grace", you suggest a past connection to a "higher self" as related in some mythologies. I would point out to you it is human nature to refer to the past in glorified terms, no matter what the actual nature of that past was. This is human psychology at work and not any actual evidence of a past "Golden Era".

Even today, we use the phrase "the good old days" in fond remembrance of a past which, if we were honest, was no better than the present.

However, if you wish to disassociate your theory from accusations of promoting drug use, might I suggest the removal from it of the various mentions of those drugs. Until then, I will remain skeptical of the claim this theory is not actually promoting the use of those drugs as a means to "return to a higher state of being".

Edited by Leonardo, 31 March 2012 - 06:13 PM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#7    shpongled

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:31 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 31 March 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

As I said, a balanced diet is essential to our well-being.

With reference to your association of the chemicals derived from plants and a "fall from grace", you suggest a past connection to a "higher self" as related in some mythologies. I would point out to you it is human nature to refer to the past in glorified terms, no matter what the actual nature of that past was. This is human psychology at work and not any actual evidence of a past "Golden Era".

Even today, we use the phrase "the good old days" in fond remembrance of a past which, if we were honest, was no better than the present.

However, if you wish to disassociate your theory from accusations of promoting drug use, might I suggest the removal from it of the various mentions of those drugs. Until then, I will remain skeptical of the claim this theory is not actually promoting the use of those drugs as a means to "return to a higher state of being".

I would check out memories and visions of paradise. there are so many complex elements in these stories that are present in groups that occupied totally different parts of the globe. The only reason for this would be that they shared a common origin in the distant past. And is it a coincidence that so many even mention our naked, forest dwelling, fruit eating past?

As far as remnants of a higher self- this is because one hemisphere is more sensitive to the very steroids that fruit flavonoids were inhibiting for tens of millions of years, to put it simply. I elaborate in the article. Basically once the symbiosis is lost we start reverting back to the typical mammalian structure but one side of the brain does so faster than the other. This is why autism has been linked to hormone exposure to the left hemisphere in the womb- the very hormones fruit inhibited for millions of years. This is just an extreme expression of it, which explains why we see remnants of higher functioning all over the place. I.E. savant abilities like speed reading (some can read both sides of an open book at the same time, in mere seconds, and retain 100% of it), photographic memory, amazing mathematical skills, the list goes on and on.

Dr. Allan Snyder, by inhibiting the dominance of the left hemisphere with TMS, claims to be able to allow some people temporary and partial access to these more advanced right hemispheric functions. His research is really astounding. Even Ramachandran, and many others have pointed out that the left hemisphere is stuck in a self-construed illusory story of reality, that it makes up through heavy filtering/processing. Whereas the less dominant right hemisphere experiences reality much more directly and perceptions are less filtered. There is even cases of left hemispheric damage leading to a host of abnormally advanced abilities.

All of your claims are refuted by the information coming out of various disciplines, presented in the book- if you take a look at the .pdf on there


#8    jmccr8

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:42 PM

http://www.smithsoni...-migration.html


  I don't know if I did this right as this is the first time that I've tried this.The article is quite long but I did find it interesting,and there is some discussion about diet on pgs3.4.
jmccr8


#9    jmccr8

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:43 PM

Yup it worked,well I guess even this primate can learn something new.Cheers jmccr8


#10    shpongled

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:05 AM

Interesting article, thanks.

Did you take a look at the interview?


#11    The_Spartan

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:17 AM

i am a stupid layman with stupid questions.

Since the interview with Terrence Mckenna concentrates on the shrinking of the Human Brain

1. Does Shrinking of Human Brain liken to shrinking of brain capacity?
2. Does Shrinking of Brain Size in any way indicate any sort of devolution of the human brain?
3. If so, Does the Devolution of Human Brain also link to Devolution of Human Physiology? (i mean if brain shrinks=brain capacity decrease, then the body that is controlled by the brain will also change, am i right ?)
4. If before Shrinking=Devolution of Human Brain occurred (if it did ever), could the humans of that ancient past be very much advanced in all sciences?? (after all before the devolution, the brain capacity was high..am i right?)
5. If so, humans with such advanced capabilities would have built advanced civilizations (of which we do not find any singe remain..am i right?) And Please dont start by linking the Pyramids as a remains of that ancient advanced civilization. let us keep it out of this one. any other? with proper citations/references?

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#12    jules99

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:57 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 31 March 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

http://www.smithsoni...-migration.html


  I don't know if I did this right as this is the first time that I've tried this.The article is quite long but I did find it interesting,and there is some discussion about diet on pgs3.4.
jmccr8
Hi jmccr8;
That was a good read, thanks..the links in the comments below the main article were good also..in particular the one explaining the need for sleep was "WOW" Ive never heard of that before.


#13    shpongled

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:24 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 01 April 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

i am a stupid layman with stupid questions.

Since the interview with Terrence Mckenna concentrates on the shrinking of the Human Brain

1. Does Shrinking of Human Brain liken to shrinking of brain capacity?
2. Does Shrinking of Brain Size in any way indicate any sort of devolution of the human brain?
3. If so, Does the Devolution of Human Brain also link to Devolution of Human Physiology? (i mean if brain shrinks=brain capacity decrease, then the body that is controlled by the brain will also change, am i right ?)
4. If before Shrinking=Devolution of Human Brain occurred (if it did ever), could the humans of that ancient past be very much advanced in all sciences?? (after all before the devolution, the brain capacity was high..am i right?)
5. If so, humans with such advanced capabilities would have built advanced civilizations (of which we do not find any singe remain..am i right?) And Please dont start by linking the Pyramids as a remains of that ancient advanced civilization. let us keep it out of this one. any other? with proper citations/references?


heheh..Well, Terence is actually dead, sadly. This is an interview with Tony Wright ;)  Forgive the length of this reply! lol

1) Not sure what Tony's thoughts are on this one, but it seems that the two are intimately intertwined to me. These fruit chemicals read the dna (among many other profound interconnected affects) meaning they are directly involved in building not only the brain on a cellular level, but our physiology in general.

2) The shrinking ( along with the mountain of psychological/biological/neurological data coming out of science) definitely seems to indicate devolution.. once you open your mind to the possibility. (The problem is merely doing that! Because we are deluded- its hard). Some claim that it became 'specialized' and no longer needed such size, but that doesn't hold up at all. Less size also = less processing power.. and it isn't just size we're talking about- its the complexity that resulted from the symbiosis. The most complex tissue in the known universe evolved in symbiosis with one of the most complex chemical environments on the planet, and when it lost that the complexity/functions started reverting back to the primitive type. So its not just a mere shrinking..

I mean to put it simply..our brains weren't just expanding in size in the past, they were expanding at a rapidly increasing rate. The fact that the accelerated expansion stalled should be a sign something isn't right here, and the fact that it is actually shrinking should be very alarming!

3) Yes, my answer to your first question vaguely touched on this. The massive loss of chemicals that built and fueled our bodies (at the most sensitive stages of development in the womb, none the less) had a huge affect on how our endocrine system and immune system run, and virtually everything else. Now that the body and its systems are also being run by a dysfunctional brain, the only thing that can logically result from that is less that optimal functioning.

4) Well the mere fact that we have to categorize and create different 'branches' of science indicates how we tend to over rationalize things, since really its all one big interconnected reality. Some ancient groups did seem to have a lot of knowledge, the problem is recognizing it in our current state. What seems advanced to us might not seem advanced to them. For instance- we often hold up our civilization as the pinnacle of evolution, when really in many ways it is more like a loaded gun aimed at the head of this planet, and shows massive signs of species wide insanity. Many who live simpler lives that are more harmonious with natural environmental cycles often regard us as insane. But when we do look into the past we do see many hints of advanced knowledge. Theres many books on all of this so i'll try and be brief.

First you can look at the astounding astronomical knowledge. Long before we knew the earth was round many civilizations not only knew that but were light years ahead of us in mapping these celestial cycles. The mayans come to mind, but the egyptians, and many other civilizations were very very good at this sort of thing, and often aligned they're highly advanced architecture to these cycles and they're mathematical knowledge was very deep. Many texts also point to a profound and intuitive understanding of the natural world and mans place in it, and while many have gotten distorted in recent times (religion/dogma) at they're core they did seem to carry simple, and obvious truths regarding how nature and humans operate. There is also the worldwide myth of this fall, which literally is like a direct diagnosis in many cases. Groups worldwide also engaged in many techniques to remedy it ( shamanism, meditation, sleep deprivation, etc). There was also very detailed and complex medicinal knowledge all over the worlds ancient cultures.

5)This is sort of a misconception with our idea of 'advanced'. Many groups would have established a relatively intact way of life after being forced out of the African jungles due to climate change (and possibly other reasons), and would have migrated to areas that were somewhat similar as the pre-fall jungles. Meaning there is no reason why many wouldn't have lived in tropical areas for a time, where there was no need for shelter and food could be leisurely picked from trees in this state of basically indescribable bliss and atonement with oneself and reality.. which virtually all the ancient cultures dimly recall in one way or another and attempted to re-establish (and the neurological data supports..)

" humans with such advanced capabilities would have built advanced civilizations (of which we do not find any singe remain..am i right?)"

Many of the ancient civilizations we know about today were actually very advanced! We tend to marginalize them of course.

And oddly many of them even claim to be descendants of a more advanced previous civilization. There is even maps that have been re-copied for millenia which show the world as it looked before the last ice age. Graham Hancock has studied this extensively and cited how basically all of these people recall a massive flood. And, go figure, within the past 15,000 years or so the sea level has risen dramatically, some 150meters, and in dangerous spurts. This would totally eradicate much of the land where culture thrives, and where the ancients did retreat we find these "myths" of what happened and recollections of the cities beneath the waters. He's dived in many of these places and there is remarkable pictures of ruins on his website but oddly orthodox archaeologists are to stubborn and self-invested in the current worldview to even bother looking into this. His book underworld goes into this but many archaeologists and other laymen have gone into it before. http://www.grahamhan...er/yonaguni.htm

Edited by shpongled, 01 April 2012 - 08:31 AM.


#14    jmccr8

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:02 AM

View Postshpongled, on 01 April 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Interesting article, thanks.

Did you take a look at the interview?


   Hello shpongled,

  Yes I did read the interview and as far as brain development through diet I can only say that when hs found a food source that didn't have big teeth as was just as hungry as he was for something to eat,he evolved.As we evolve our brains would physically adapt as well,the new adaptations would develop before others are reduced or deleted.Almost like the catapiller into a butterfly.

   With respect to the drug use,if it was used in a medicinal application for the treatment of illness or injury I would be inclined to see some form of critical thinking as having already evolved.For the most part for other uses like ritualism,no Ipad,Ipod,tv,cable,they were just having their version of Saturday Night Live.


   In the link I posted it refers to evidence of clearing land by burning and encouraging the growth of roots and tubers,this occurred 55k-75kbp.This to me shows an earlier understanding and manipulating of environment for "agricultural"benefit.I one of the links in that same article there was another about wild barley that had been altered by cooking and found between the teeth of a neadrethal showing that they had at 40kbp being harvesting and pressing a food source.

  jmccr8


#15    shpongled

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:10 PM

so you don't think the hundreds of thousands of transcription altering, immune/pineal boosting, endocrine modulating, etc, plant chemicals present in us 24/7 for tens of millions of years would have any affect on evolution? And that the sudden loss of this would have any affect on what develops? Mind if i ask why?





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