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Plant/human symbiosis & the fall of humanity


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#16    DieChecker

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:33 PM

View Postshpongled, on 31 March 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Which is scary considering we were flooding our brains with the most complex assortment of plant chemicals for millions of years in Africa, and now expect to build the most complex and chemically sensitive thing in the known universe out of "junk" and have it work properly.
Well, the people in Africa don't seem to be any smarter then anyone else these days. If biodiversity equals a better brain, you'd expect to see a flood of genius come flooding out of the 3rd world into the modern academic systems and industries. Or maybe... they are just too smart to do so??

I think since so many discoverys and thinkers have come out of temperate zones of the world, that the tropical diet is actually holding humanity back, and it was not till humanity moved into the temperate zones and ate temperate foods that his brain got pushed forward.

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#17    shpongled

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:39 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Well, the people in Africa don't seem to be any smarter then anyone else these days. If biodiversity equals a better brain, you'd expect to see a flood of genius come flooding out of the 3rd world into the modern academic systems and industries. Or maybe... they are just too smart to do so??

Just because some groups remained on the continent doesn't mean they still had access to the unimaginably complex assortment of fruit chemistry. None of the groups that remain today in africa flood they're systems with this 24/7, as we did for millions of years. So they would be subject to the same changes in neural structure and function that we know do occur given the scientific data available.

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I think since so many discoverys and thinkers have come out of temperate zones of the world, that the tropical diet is actually holding humanity back, and it was not till humanity moved into the temperate zones and ate temperate foods that his brain got pushed forward.

Ok, but we are talking about evolutionary time scales here. We all got separated from the symbiosis around roughly 200,000 years ago when we were forced out due to climate change and loss of forest. How would the tropical diet be holding humanity back? These fruit, these chemical factories-increased brain activity, memory, immune functions, and basically it changes everything , as you can see once you look at the data.. Wouldn't it make more sense that junk food and McDonalds are holding us back more since they are literally damaging to us? And our hormone pumped, pesticide laden, processed food we fill the market with which we know for a fact is bad for us? Don't you find it odd we build(diet) the most chemically complex and sensitive organ known to man out of garbage and expect it to work properly? when in fact it was being built and fueled by the most complex assortment of chemical factories known to ever exist, and it suddenly lost this and was built by foods that literally have the opposite affect on our hormones and all around functioning?

What is your definition of "temperate foods"? The biological data that outlines the affect these plant chemicals would have on our system is very well supported, as i showed in the article. And brushing that all under the rug while clinging to the current paradigm is exactly what the psychological data predicts we'd do


#18    jmccr8

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:54 PM

View Postshpongled, on 01 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

so you don't think the hundreds of thousands of transcription altering, immune/pineal boosting, endocrine modulating, etc, plant chemicals present in us 24/7 for tens of millions of years would have any affect on evolution? And that the sudden loss of this would have any affect on what develops? Mind if i ask why?

   Hi shpongled,

   We don't know what the ultimate design is for the evolution of man is,so for me to presume that we are somehow in some state of regression,if I my use the term,is an unknown.If I look at what man has developed as tools of and for his progression in the environment that we live in at present,I would not agree with what has been proposed.The smart phones that we use today compared to the computers that were being used in the 60s the reduction in size has been a benefit as we don't need a pocket the size of a 12 story building to carry it around in,possibility a reflection of our own evolutionary development.

   I see the brain as an organ and that we are something more than a collection of parts.For me to delve any further into the subject would inevitably end up in a pointless discussion of philosophical interpretation and serve no purpose in this thread.I agree that diet is key to healthy development but we don't know what purpose we serve in the grand scheme of things and we do not know how much we will still have to evolve in order to fulfull that destiny.jmccr8


#19    DieChecker

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:57 PM

View Postshpongled, on 01 April 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Just because some groups remained on the continent doesn't mean they still had access to the unimaginably complex assortment of fruit chemistry. None of the groups that remain today in africa flood they're systems with this 24/7, as we did for millions of years. So they would be subject to the same changes in neural structure and function that we know do occur given the scientific data available.
Aren't there bushmen, and pygmys that live in equatorial Africa that basically live the same as the first nomadic homo sapiens? These people are not any smarter then their northern vitamen munching brothers.

Quote

Ok, but we are talking about evolutionary time scales here. We all got separated from the symbiosis around roughly 200,000 years ago when we were forced out due to climate change and loss of forest. How would the tropical diet be holding humanity back? These fruit, these chemical factories-increased brain activity, memory, immune functions, and basically it changes everything , as you can see once you look at the data..
So what fruit are we talking about here? Obviously not mangos, bananas and guava, as people eat those every day. What kind of exotic chemicals appeared in which fruit? Or are you saying this "Tree of Life" type fruit is gone, like the Garden of Eden?

Quote

Wouldn't it make more sense that junk food and McDonalds are holding us back more since they are literally damaging to us? And our hormone pumped, pesticide laden, processed food we fill the market with which we know for a fact is bad for us? Don't you find it odd we build(diet) the most chemically complex and sensitive organ known to man out of garbage and expect it to work properly? when in fact it was being built and fueled by the most complex assortment of chemical factories known to ever exist, and it suddenly lost this and was built by foods that literally have the opposite affect on our hormones and all around functioning?
I'm not saying McDonalds is Nirvana, or it is Mana from Heaven. But it is not our food that is junk. It is rather our healthcare lifestyles. People getting overweight and not getting exercise is what causes problems, not a Non-tropical-fruit diet. The human body knows what the Garbage is, and will filter most of it out. It is only if you are missing important minerals and vitamens entirely that you run into problems.

Quote

What is your definition of "temperate foods"? The biological data that outlines the affect these plant chemicals would have on our system is very well supported, as i showed in the article. And brushing that all under the rug while clinging to the current paradigm is exactly what the psychological data predicts we'd do
Temperate foods would include domesticated meat cooked on a fire. Grains and nuts. Fish and Poultry.

And you can point out that they have grains, domesticated animals and fish and poultry in Africa if you want, but those things were not Invented there. Those things migrated there as new inventions from Europe and Asia.

I'd also argue that the human jaw and teeth were not evolved to eat only fruits, or even only plants. Our teeth are clearly omnivorous.

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#20    shpongled

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:20 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 01 April 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Hi shpongled,

   We don't know what the ultimate design is for the evolution of man is,so for me to presume that we are somehow in some state of regression,if I my use the term,is an unknown.If I look at what man has developed as tools of and for his progression in the environment that we live in at present,I would not agree with what has been proposed.The smart phones that we use today compared to the computers that were being used in the 60s the reduction in size has been a benefit as we don't need a pocket the size of a 12 story building to carry it around in,possibility a reflection of our own evolutionary development.

   I see the brain as an organ and that we are something more than a collection of parts.For me to delve any further into the subject would inevitably end up in a pointless discussion of philosophical interpretation and serve no purpose in this thread.I agree that diet is key to healthy development but we don't know what purpose we serve in the grand scheme of things and we do not know how much we will still have to evolve in order to fulfull that destiny.jmccr8

Sure we have some nice technology, but at what cost? Around 5% of the worlds population holds 95% of the worlds wealth, we are on the verge of toxifying not only ourselves but the entire planet. Hundreds of species are going extinct everday due to our activities. Pollution, deforestation, overpopulation, increase in disease, all these things show we cannot sustain our downward spiral for much longer before things collapse. You do realize that its recently been shown our brains are shrinking, and that diet affects brain size right? There is so much more to it than that though..If the glimpses of profound states of consciousness that some unique individuals experience, combined with extraordinary immune functions and genius some glimpse is only the tip of the iceberg of what we considere normal then an iphone would be totally unnecessary i think

I too see the brain as an organ and agree that we are more than the sum of our parts, but obviously the quality of the organ and the fuel you run it on will have a monumental affect on our sense of self and perception.


#21    shpongled

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Aren't there bushmen, and pygmys that live in equatorial Africa that basically live the same as the first nomadic homo sapiens? These people are not any smarter then their northern vitamen munching brothers."

No, they don't eat even close to what we would have eaten in the african jungles (we wouldn't be nomadic there really?). The forests dried up and the symbiosis was lost. If you see the article it explains how biological data indicated this would turn the positive feedback mechanism that developed into a negative one. Sure there would be some that stayed in the same general area and ate fruit here or there- but the ridiculously complex assortment would be almost entirely gone and it is always at least partially substituted with less optimal foods.

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

So what fruit are we talking about here? Obviously not mangos, bananas and guava, as people eat those every day. What kind of exotic chemicals appeared in which fruit? Or are you saying this "Tree of Life" type fruit is gone, like the Garden of Eden?

Figs, bananas, many of the fruits people are familiar with but it was likely dozens if not hundreds of species- each with unimaginably complex, hormonally rich bio-chemistry that can read DNA. A tomato alone has 10,000 of these chemicals! Yes basically this new information means that the global myths of a 'paradise' or 'garden of eden' where we were naked, forest dwelling, bliss filled, fruit eaters is actually a recollection of a previous 'golden age'. Any wonder history can be seen as the constant search for liberation? And so many aimed to return to such a state? (dimly reflected in todays religions/mystic traditions.

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I'm not saying McDonalds is Nirvana, or it is Mana from Heaven. But it is not our food that is junk. It is rather our healthcare lifestyles. People getting overweight and not getting exercise is what causes problems, not a Non-tropical-fruit diet. The human body knows what the Garbage is, and will filter most of it out. It is only if you are missing important minerals and vitamens entirely that you run into problems.

well if we were flooding our system with hundreds of thousands of these vitamins/flavonoids/phytochemicals etc for tens of millions of years then that DOES mean we are now missing them. Surprising then, that diseases related to deficiencies in such chemicals (like Alzheimer as i pointed out in the article) are on the rise? I have to disagree that mcdonalds isn't "junk". Ever seen supersize me? The guy ate it everyday for a month and his doctors urged him to stop because he could DIE.  :unsure:

We know its bad for our stomaches, immune system, mood, etc. Fast food has been linked to depression. http://psychcentral....sion/36798.html And poor food has (not surprisingly) been linked to brain damage http://www.huffingto..._n_1173487.html Not to mention a new long term study on 20,000 individuals found all read meat shortens life span.

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I'd also argue that the human jaw and teeth were not evolved to eat only fruits, or even only plants. Our teeth are clearly omnivorous.

Well our physiology, including teeth and digestive system, was relatively how it is now long before we started cooking, and we simply don't have the teeth or stomaches to eat raw meat. Sure we can adapt on a survival diet, but all we get from this is energy- not the complex assortment of neuro-chemistry necessary to run the neo-cortex optimally. Our closet cousins who still live in the jungles, the primates, eat 95-100% plants! We also don't create our own internal vitamin C internally..meanwhile: all other omnivores and carnivores do! This is because we were getting plenty of it from our plant-based diet. If we were omnivores, then we also wouldn't need to create our won vitamin D from sunlight, since we would have been getting it from the meat. This is just a few things that point towards a fruit based diet.

And there is a link between fruit and complex, big brains. Take primates for example. Or fruit bats, parrots, etc. all very very intelligent compared to similar species who eat differently. Then theres howler and spider monkies ( i may have this reversed)..They are the same size, live in the same environment, and yet one has a brain twice as large as the other. Coincidence that it also eats twice as much fruit?


#22    jmccr8

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:43 PM

I was using the Iphone as an example to illustrate a point.The old computers were large and slow,technology evolves much like ourselves in order to survive,adapt to and manipulate its environment.Just as we can now carry more information in an Iphone than we could process with those old computers,we ourselves have evolved into a leaner more efficient thinking man.We do not evolve in a manner that would reduce our chances for survival,our environment changes and we change with it.It would seem that this system is working quite efficiently as reference I cite the billions of people that exist today as a direct effect of this ability to evolve.jmccr8


#23    shpongled

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:59 PM

odd to cite that as a mark of advancement, since overpopulation is one of the main things jeopardizing not only the quality of life of our species but the continuation of all life on this planet!

And as i said, its just a left-brained linear bias to assume history unfolds in such a straight forward simple---->advanced way. The geological and cultural data, like the stuff Hancock points out, indicates quite the opposite. It makes more sense that there is cycles, and that there would be times of great progress and times of loss. The massive earth changes that have taken place in the past 20,000 years with the melting of the glaciers and the rapid rise in sea level are also important to take into account since these would have wiped out almost any trace of civilizations on the most hospitable parts of the planet. Although if you really study ancient cultures with this idea in mind it becomes obvious they were very, very advanced and even knew about the condition and tried to correct it.


#24    jmccr8

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:25 PM

View Postshpongled, on 01 April 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

odd to cite that as a mark of advancement, since overpopulation is one of the main things jeopardizing not only the quality of life of our species but the continuation of all life on this planet!

And as i said, its just a left-brained linear bias to assume history unfolds in such a straight forward simple---->advanced way. The geological and cultural data, like the stuff Hancock points out, indicates quite the opposite. It makes more sense that there is cycles, and that there would be times of great progress and times of loss. The massive earth changes that have taken place in the past 20,000 years with the melting of the glaciers and the rapid rise in sea level are also important to take into account since these would have wiped out almost any trace of civilizations on the most hospitable parts of the planet. Although if you really study ancient cultures with this idea in mind it becomes obvious they were very, very advanced and even knew about the condition and tried to correct it.

   As far as I know I have not mentioned any knowledge of any ancient and unknown advanced civilization or any of its theoretical achievements.To do comparative analysis of the brain function of these people would require a preserved brain to perform research on and as far as far as I know the brain matter usually deteriorates and we are generally left with bone,hair and tooth fragments to work with.Neither are there written records of any such research having been done by these ancients that we can use for comparative study.

   We don't know where evolution will lead man so for me to suggest that we are not functioning in accordance to the nature of our being would be foolish.They say that we only use 10% of our brains potential,I on the other hand suggest that we use 100% and only understand 10%.I used the example of population to show that we have evolved to the point that we are the dominant species on this planet.The fact that you feel that we are over populated and therefore weakening our chances of survival,for me,may be the next trigger in our evolution,I don't know.I have a tendency to look at the positive effects of change.

   Do I believe that there are civilizations that have been lost?Possibly,I dwell on many potential scenerios of the past but try to ground myself in what is known and use that as a point to work from.I am not well versed in scientific knowledge and rely on the resources of those here that share their knowledge and provide links so that I can better understand material presented.I have only responded from personal opinion and am not putting forward any theories.jmccr8


#25    shpongled

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:04 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 01 April 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

To do comparative analysis of the brain function of these people would require a preserved brain to perform research on and as far as far as I know the brain matter usually deteriorates and we are generally left with bone,hair and tooth fragments to work with.Neither are there written records of any such research having been done by these ancients that we can use for comparative study.

There are other indications besides a preserved brain that give us an idea on the type of mental life, and level of intelligence that the ancients experienced.

View Postjmccr8, on 01 April 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

We don't know where evolution will lead man so for me to suggest that we are not functioning in accordance to the nature of our being would be foolish.They say that we only use 10% of our brains potential,I on the other hand suggest that we use 100% and only understand 10%.I used the example of population to show that we have evolved to the point that we are the dominant species on this planet.The fact that you feel that we are over populated and therefore weakening our chances of survival,for me,may be the next trigger in our evolution,I don't know.I have a tendency to look at the positive effects of change.

Well we may not know where evolution is leading..but our brains ARE shrinking, that is known, and simultaneously we are on a trainwreck ride thats ruining the planet, so there are hints at where it could lead if we don't do something drastic. It doesn't matter whether or not you think it would be foolish to suggest we aren't functioning optimally, just look at the data available, its relatively straightforward. Your first sentence is like saying "well, i don't know where my dog max will end up going in life, and therefore i cannot comment on if he is actually healthy at the moment".

This proposal may seem pessimistic but really its the most hopeful news we ever could have heard. If there is a problem with the development of our neural system then that opens the door to immediate treatment. You cannot fix the problems that have arisen in the world from the same state of mind that created them. Even just bringing the news to global attention would cause a massive shift in how we all see and live in the world. Imagine how the world would change overnight if it were conclusively proven that the dominant side of our brain is severely retarded.

View Postjmccr8, on 01 April 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Do I believe that there are civilizations that have been lost?Possibly,I dwell on many potential scenerios of the past but try to ground myself in what is known and use that as a point to work from.I am not well versed in scientific knowledge and rely on the resources of those here that share their knowledge and provide links so that I can better understand material presented.I have only responded from personal opinion and am not putting forward any theories.

Basically all of the biological information i've been relaying is very well supported by what is currently known. The problem is that this, along with the psychological info, indicate that if this condition exists then we would be VERY slow to understand the context and severity of it. If there was even the slightest indication it does (and if it didn't there would be no evidence, but there is a lot) , say just a tiny percent chance, then the only sane thing would be to at least look into it and make sure our instrument of perception is actually OK. Theres nothing to loose and through some self-experimentation it becomes self-evident in all those who've gotten into it that i've heard of including myself.

Edited by shpongled, 02 April 2012 - 12:06 AM.


#26    Swede

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:27 AM

View Postshpongled, on 01 April 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Just because some groups remained on the continent doesn't mean they still had access to the unimaginably complex assortment of fruit chemistry. None of the groups that remain today in africa flood they're systems with this 24/7, as we did for millions of years. So they would be subject to the same changes in neural structure and function that we know do occur given the scientific data available.



Ok, but we are talking about evolutionary time scales here. We all got separated from the symbiosis around roughly 200,000 years ago when we were forced out due to climate change and loss of forest. How would the tropical diet be holding humanity back? These fruit, these chemical factories-increased brain activity, memory, immune functions, and basically it changes everything , as you can see once you look at the data.. Wouldn't it make more sense that junk food and McDonalds are holding us back more since they are literally damaging to us? And our hormone pumped, pesticide laden, processed food we fill the market with which we know for a fact is bad for us? Don't you find it odd we build(diet) the most chemically complex and sensitive organ known to man out of garbage and expect it to work properly? when in fact it was being built and fueled by the most complex assortment of chemical factories known to ever exist, and it suddenly lost this and was built by foods that literally have the opposite affect on our hormones and all around functioning?

What is your definition of "temperate foods"? The biological data that outlines the affect these plant chemicals would have on our system is very well supported, as i showed in the article. And brushing that all under the rug while clinging to the current paradigm is exactly what the psychological data predicts we'd do

Just to clarify - Are you implying that the preferred environment of early H.s. such as Omo 1was the more dense tropical jungles?

Are you further not addressing the apparent role that faunal nutrition sources played in the development of the brain of earlier members of the lineage?

As to such concepts as dramatic "civilization destroying" global basin rise during the Holocene, simple math will alleviate concerns in this regard:

http://research.rmut...sSupplement.pdf

As a side note, referencing those such as Hancock may not improve your position.

.


#27    daavin

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:51 AM

I would like to disagree with the statement that we cannot digest raw meats, there is sushi in Japan, tartars in Europe,people eat raw meat everyday around the world.  We have fangs for a reason to rip meat from the bones of animals. I myself enjoy eating raw meats.

I remember the British documentary series Walking with prehistoric man that proposed mans brainpower increased due to the fact that humans started eating meat providing them with the essential amino acids required for brain development.

I also recall a documentary on chimpanzees (cannot recall the title sorry to say) that states they are omnivorous, chimps are our closest relatives in the animal kingdom.

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#28    jmccr8

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:06 AM

I am not sure if this example will illustrate my thoughts on this but here it goes anyway.If a species evolved to the point that it no longer had a tail the need for the brain function required to manipulate it is no longer required and eventually the brain would adapt to its hosts need.Otherwise one would likely be subject to phantom limb experience and I would be trying to pick up my beer with a tail I no longer had.I think that as a species it is part of our make up to adapt to our environment dictates,as well as adapt to the influence that we have had on our environment.


  The world has been ending for the last 58yrs that I've been here and for some reason it's on back-order as there seems to be a shortage between supply and demand,oh well maybe next year.This is only a personal opinion from a guy that knows that the only time the world ends is where I die,until then I've got plenty to keep me amused.Man breaks things down to its simplest forms in order to discover its nature,what is unique to it.In order to fully understand it we need to return it into it's environment in order to understand its effect on it's environment.Unfortunately we have only begun to understand a few pixels of the picture.Our progress in understanding,modifying,and adapting both physically and intellectually is ongoing and and will continue no matter how much we scare ourselves.jmccr8


#29    shpongled

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:06 AM

Just to clarify - Are you implying that the preferred environment of early H.s. such as Omo 1was the more dense tropical jungles?

Seems likely that it would be the prefered climate of any primate, especially since they're still there today.. Again some of what i saw in this thread may sound odd at face value, given the conventional, orthodox view, especially without reading the article. The article does go further into this.


Are you further not addressing the apparent role that faunal nutrition sources played in the development of the brain of earlier members of the lineage?

It was never my intention to give a layout of the entire theory, but a brief summary of key points, there is more on that in the guys book and a free .pdf is in the article..I'll just add my opinions; If faunal nutrition played such a significant role then why don't we see carnivores/omnivores all over the place with large, intelligent brains like us? Why would, as i outlined in the posts above, there be such a strong connection between fruit and intelligence/big brains? The biological mechanisms for the proposal your referring to aren't very well supported in my opinion, and information regarding how a diet high in fruit would affect human development is very straight forward and well supported by high school level biology.

"As to such concepts as dramatic "civilization destroying" global basin rise during the Holocene, simple math will alleviate concerns in this regard:

http://research.rmut...sSupplement.pdf

As a side note, referencing those such as Hancock may not improve your position."

I don't agree with the guy on everything. But to disregard all of his work just because some if it seems a bit to "out there" or unorthodox doesn't seem right either. Much if it is well evidenced. He's done some great work in his book underworld at gathering evidence from many researchers that indicate the rise in sea level didn't occur so gradually as one might assume, but often in spurts. As temperature rose giant lakes of melted water on top of the glaciers would burst they're barriers- resulting in dramatic rises in sea level almost over night, among other things like earthquakes and geological changes from the weight displacement. The "myths" of coastal ancients and modern people worldwide recall essentially the same situation.

Whether or not they're recollections of a civilization lost to the flood are true, there still remains a mountain of evidence for this theory coming out of biology, psychology, etc. The book doesn't go into this or Hancocks work from what i recall, to me it seems related though.


#30    Slave2Fate

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:10 AM

This is in effect a 'fly-by' post, so I have to apologize for that.

Off of the top of my head, what about other animals that did/do share a large portion of our ancestor's diet? would they not have also benefited from this 'magic food'? Why were humans the only animal to reap the rewards, so to speak?

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You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave





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