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Second Thessalonians 2:11


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#1    and then

and then

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:42 AM

I observe in the world today a growing distance between those who call on God for help and answers versus those who call on science alone for those same answers.  Science is an indispensable tool for solving problems in our material world but scientists will admit they don't have the answers to spiritual questions.  Believers in God can be forgiven (I hope) for thinking that people who look to science for ALL answers about our humanity are misguided.
I've often wondered why the two cannot coexist at some level.  Very devout and often uneducated Christians will view the extremely rational among us as evildoers, somehow, for not acknowledging the need for faith in a higher power.  No need to even get into how the extremely rational view and treat those of faith.  I've begun to wonder,as a Christian, if this very division wasn't highlighted in scriptures about the final days of this present world system we live in.
The scripture I included in the title is a warning from God that He will cause those who have no faith in Him to actually believe a lie and be damned because they refused to love the truth.
Leaving aside the perceived horrible unfairness of such an act, I have often wondered what such a delusion would consist of and one possible answer for me is that God will give those who make science their god, a scientific answer to replace Him in their arrogance.

So to the question.  If in the midst of the worsening global turmoil we find ourselves in there were to occur a FIRST CONTACT event.....how would the world react?  We have become accustomed to answers occurring from science and UFOs are almost a hardwired aspect to the mythology of every nation on earth.  So if a human appearing being came on the scene and claimed to be our "god" how many do you think would disbelieve?  Imagine a story being told that provided a denouement for all the religions on earth.  A story of how we were "seeded" onto this planet and tended by this all powerful (by our standards) being so that we could evolve.  But that now we had to receive contact because we were in danger of destroying ourselves utterly.

I have no idea if this is God's plan.  But such an event would fulfill this prophecy to a letter.  Most would be deceived.  Even Christians (the elect) would be in jeopardy of believing the lie - just as the Bible predicts.

I have no doubt that some would try to oppose this alien intrusion but I believe that it would be short lived since the technology would appear magically strong.  Humans stand in dumbstruck awe over a very gifted orator.  Imagine such an orator who can call down fire from the sky.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#2    Leonardo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:37 AM

I am reminded often, when religious people start speaking of the prophecies in the relevant scriptures held sacred in their belief, of the prophecies of Nostradamus and how ambiguous they are, being so easily applied to any number of real life situations.

This seems to be almost a requirement of 'prophecy', make it obscure enough that anyone can interpret it to fit whatever situation that supports their belief in it.

I am also bemused by the apparent glee with which various religions and their exponents, seek to end our world through some catastrophic deific intervention. To me, this merely speaks of deeper issues, rather than someone looking forward to eternal bliss.

Having said all that, in a First Contact situation I imagine there will be a fair representation of all the various emotions we tend to display when confronted with paradigm-changing events. Some will panic; some will rejoice; some will be openly welcoming and some will be selfishly opportunistic. I would like to think that the majority would be reasonable, and look forward to a new era with equanimity, rather than succumb to idolisation or other extreme behaviour - but that might just be wishful thinking on my part.

My opinion is that various people of religious belief will fall into the "selfishly opportunistic" group, and attempt to utilise such a situation to the advantage of their beliefs. Will this validate any particular prophecy in any scripture?

No, it is simply an example of human nature that anyone could predict.

Edited by Leonardo, 01 April 2012 - 09:40 AM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

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#3    and then

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:14 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 01 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I am reminded often, when religious people start speaking of the prophecies in the relevant scriptures held sacred in their belief, of the prophecies of Nostradamus and how ambiguous they are, being so easily applied to any number of real life situations.

This seems to be almost a requirement of 'prophecy', make it obscure enough that anyone can interpret it to fit whatever situation that supports their belief in it.

I am also bemused by the apparent glee with which various religions and their exponents, seek to end our world through some catastrophic deific intervention. To me, this merely speaks of deeper issues, rather than someone looking forward to eternal bliss.

Having said all that, in a First Contact situation I imagine there will be a fair representation of all the various emotions we tend to display when confronted with paradigm-changing events. Some will panic; some will rejoice; some will be openly welcoming and some will be selfishly opportunistic. I would like to think that the majority would be reasonable, and look forward to a new era with equanimity, rather than succumb to idolisation or other extreme behaviour - but that might just be wishful thinking on my part.

My opinion is that various people of religious belief will fall into the "selfishly opportunistic" group, and attempt to utilise such a situation to the advantage of their beliefs. Will this validate any particular prophecy in any scripture?

No, it is simply an example of human nature that anyone could predict.
I think humanity provides it's own "catastrophic interventions".  And what "deeper issues" would those be Leo?  Possibly those that seem to force a person to personally attack rather than just offer a reasonable answer to a question?
Validating scripture was not the point of the question.  I realize there are none here who actually believe in prophecy.  The point was how would people react if their chosen "god" came to them with answers they already had made up for themselves.  And your answer was a lucid, concise explanation of that reaction.  Funny, though,you seem to feel that just because humans would react like...well.... humans, that that somehow removes Deity from the equation.  If we are created and our Creator wants to cause sinful man to fall further into error why would He set a snare any other way?   And why would man react in a way foreign to his nature?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#4    Leonardo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:22 PM

View Postand then, on 01 April 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Validating scripture was not the point of the question.  I realize there are none here who actually believe in prophecy.  The point was how would people react if their chosen "god" came to them with answers they already had made up for themselves.

And how would one ascertain it was the god they actually believed in?

As far as I know, there is no 'god-test' an entity claiming to be a deity might take to confirm it's identity, and any entity from a sufficiently advanced species could set itself up to pretend to be a deity. We have examples of this (minus it being another 'species') in the history of our own planet. All it would need would be to have access to certain scriptures (and a basic understanding of human psychology) to pull off the deception.

Because the 'proof' of the truth of various deities lies in the death of the individual, you cannot know in life if your belief is justified.  

Quote

And your answer was a lucid, concise explanation of that reaction.  Funny, though,you seem to feel that just because humans would react like...well.... humans, that that somehow removes Deity from the equation.  If we are created and our Creator wants to cause sinful man to fall further into error why would He set a snare any other way?   And why would man react in a way foreign to his nature?

Understanding we all are human does not remove divinity from being a possibility. Even if we are created beings then we were created to be as we are. With a deity in the equation we can still only be human.

Edited by Leonardo, 01 April 2012 - 07:22 PM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#5    Jor-el

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:59 PM

View Postand then, on 01 April 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I observe in the world today a growing distance between those who call on God for help and answers versus those who call on science alone for those same answers.  Science is an indispensable tool for solving problems in our material world but scientists will admit they don't have the answers to spiritual questions.  Believers in God can be forgiven (I hope) for thinking that people who look to science for ALL answers about our humanity are misguided.
I've often wondered why the two cannot coexist at some level.  Very devout and often uneducated Christians will view the extremely rational among us as evildoers, somehow, for not acknowledging the need for faith in a higher power.  No need to even get into how the extremely rational view and treat those of faith.  I've begun to wonder,as a Christian, if this very division wasn't highlighted in scriptures about the final days of this present world system we live in.
The scripture I included in the title is a warning from God that He will cause those who have no faith in Him to actually believe a lie and be damned because they refused to love the truth.
Leaving aside the perceived horrible unfairness of such an act, I have often wondered what such a delusion would consist of and one possible answer for me is that God will give those who make science their god, a scientific answer to replace Him in their arrogance.

So to the question.  If in the midst of the worsening global turmoil we find ourselves in there were to occur a FIRST CONTACT event.....how would the world react?  We have become accustomed to answers occurring from science and UFOs are almost a hardwired aspect to the mythology of every nation on earth.  So if a human appearing being came on the scene and claimed to be our "god" how many do you think would disbelieve?  Imagine a story being told that provided a denouement for all the religions on earth.  A story of how we were "seeded" onto this planet and tended by this all powerful (by our standards) being so that we could evolve.  But that now we had to receive contact because we were in danger of destroying ourselves utterly.

I have no idea if this is God's plan.  But such an event would fulfill this prophecy to a letter.  Most would be deceived.  Even Christians (the elect) would be in jeopardy of believing the lie - just as the Bible predicts.

I have no doubt that some would try to oppose this alien intrusion but I believe that it would be short lived since the technology would appear magically strong.  Humans stand in dumbstruck awe over a very gifted orator.  Imagine such an orator who can call down fire from the sky.

Most believers would reject this person as something of the devil. I know I would.

There are a number of renowned ufologists that have come to a similar conclsion, that the things we consider to be ufo's are infact not beings from another planet, but beings from a spiritual realm, or a higher dimension.

Any legitimate ET 1st contact, implies that we have a civilization on the other side, on a planet or planets outside of our solar system, they would not present themselves as gods in aspect form or idea. They would be physical beings, who would most definitely not look like us in amy way. The reasons for this are quite plain to see from any number of statements from biologists the world over.

A real 1st contact situation would be quite normal and acceptable to most believers (Jewish or Christian), it was an accepted part of the world view held by the church until the early middle ages. What we would not accept, and we would quite clearly smell a rat in the soup would be if these aliens pronounced themselves as our creators or gods in any way and if they actually looked like us...

As the old saying goes, all that shines is not necessarily gold...

Posted Image


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-C. S. Lewis


#6    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:50 AM

In my classroom there are a few motivational quotes, Goethe, Eienstein, the Bible and "faith and reason are like the shoes on your feet. You can get further with both rather then one or the other" Joseph Strasinksi (JMS, Babylon 5).


#7    and then

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:58 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 03 April 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

In my classroom there are a few motivational quotes, Goethe, Eienstein, the Bible and "faith and reason are like the shoes on your feet. You can get further with both rather then one or the other" Joseph Strasinksi (JMS, Babylon 5).
Altogether sensible.  But what if you are headed in the wrong direction?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#8    karmakazi

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:25 PM

View Postand then, on 03 April 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Altogether sensible.  But what if you are headed in the wrong direction?


What is the wrong direction?

How can anyone know that their direction is the "correct" one?

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#9    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:45 PM

View Postand then, on 03 April 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Altogether sensible.  But what if you are headed in the wrong direction?
Another one reads "it's not the destination, but the journey that matters"  ;)


#10    preacherman76

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:39 AM

View Postkarmakazi, on 03 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

What is the wrong direction?

How can anyone know that their direction is the "correct" one?


Really, as mear mortals, I guess you cant. Ive personaly put my faith in the God of Israel. For me, he's proven himself through prophecy, among other things. He is the God that tells us "the end from the begining".

Edited by preacherman76, 07 April 2012 - 08:52 AM.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#11    preacherman76

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:51 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 01 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I am reminded often, when religious people start speaking of the prophecies in the relevant scriptures held sacred in their belief, of the prophecies of Nostradamus and how ambiguous they are, being so easily applied to any number of real life situations.

This seems to be almost a requirement of 'prophecy', make it obscure enough that anyone can interpret it to fit whatever situation that supports their belief in it.


How much time and effort have you put in to reading, studying, and understanding biblical prophecy?

Not to acuse you, but I often find that people who make such claims regarding biblical prophecy have little to no time invested in the subject at all. It doesnt take long in most cases to find the motive for thier opinion.



Anyhow, as for the OP. I think most of the world is gonna fall for the lie hook line and sinker. There will be many though, who through the scriptures, will see things for what they are. And MANY of them will be jews, cause God has promised in those days thier spiritual blindness will be removed.

Edited by preacherman76, 07 April 2012 - 08:54 AM.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#12    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:33 AM

View Postkarmakazi, on 03 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

What is the wrong direction?

How can anyone know that their direction is the "correct" one?
The direction that one takes is always correct at that particular moment, but it doesn't mean that it will never change. Other factors will help one scrutinize and fine tune it. For example, I used to believe that by praying and being good and doing the "prescribed work" would keep my lifestyle intact and trouble free and always happy. Wrong. On the other hand, I also realized that great beings, such as Jesus Christ and other saints and mystics, died a horrible death. Nonetheless, I stayed on because it came clear to me that my direction is not about what I would like my life to be but about what my God(?) and the Holy Spirit (or "flow") dish it out to be. Reality is not what I would like for it to be, but what is being given...in the "now." It's not about me. It's what I've signed up for, after all. It's easy to forget, no doubt, when things are hunky-dory and "Life is good," some friends of mine say it like there's no tomorrow. Yes, I'm definitely not alone on this forgetfulness, no doubt. Again, other factors will help one scrutinize and fine tune one's chosen direction -- until the Basic 101 becomes loud and clear.

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