193 replies to this topic

[hetrodoxly]

questionmark, on 02 April 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Not quite, about 18,250,000 days late. The first human settlement of Australia was ~50,000 years bp. The Aboriginals discovered Australia.

It's the 2nd of April today.

[questionmark]

hetrodoxly, on 02 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

It's the 2nd of April today.

Sorry, did not think about that one

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

regeneratia, on 02 April 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I have heard it suggested that Australia had it's own Eve.
Heard it considered that there are far more Eves than modern science is willing to admit to.

I remember seeing a program tracking the genetic divergences of the Y chromosome (ie "Adams") and there being basically seven 'root' Adams, but I thought it was impossible with our level of technology to track changes in the X chromosome, thus we don't know how many "Eves" there were.

[questionmark]

Wearer of Hats, on 02 April 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

I remember seeing a program tracking the genetic divergences of the Y chromosome (ie "Adams") and there being basically seven 'root' Adams, but I thought it was impossible with our level of technology to track changes in the X chromosome, thus we don't know how many "Eves" there were.

Well, yes... but little details like that stop nobody from speculating very "authoritatively"

[cormac mac airt]

Wearer of Hats, on 02 April 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

I remember seeing a program tracking the genetic divergences of the Y chromosome (ie "Adams") and there being basically seven 'root' Adams, but I thought it was impossible with our level of technology to track changes in the X chromosome, thus we don't know how many "Eves" there were.

Not sure what program you might have seen, Wearer of Hats, but there aren't 7 'root Adams'. Particularly as the Y Chromosome DNA haplogroup A, as such and dated to c.60,000 BP, has been shown to be in error and the oldest two male lines are A1b c.141,500 +/- 15,600 BP and A1a c.107,600 +/- 12,200 BP. As to the maternal line Mitochondrial Eve c.192,400 BP is the original line from which ALL modern humans descend.

cormac

[Archimedes]

cormac mac airt, on 02 April 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

As to the maternal line Mitochondrial Eve c.192,400 BP is the original line from which ALL modern humans descend.

I thought Mitochondrial Eve wasn't THE line that modern humans have descended from, but the most recent common female ancestor that all modern humans have specifically inherited our mitochondrial DNA from via a very specific route, the purely female line (because MtDNA is inherited purely via the mother), and the most common human ancestor actually lived much more recently than her.

[cormac mac airt]

Archimedes, see the following:

Quote

I thought Mitochondrial Eve wasn't THE line that modern humans have descended from, but the most recent common female ancestor that all modern humans have specifically inherited our mitochondrial DNA from via a very specific route

I think you've confused yourself with your own wording. It's not the line but it is the line? Kind of contradictory, don't you think?

Quote

...and the most common human ancestor actually lived much more recently than her.

The most recent human ancestor by what definition? Breaking down mtDNA haplogroups in direct line of descent from "L" to my own, Haplogroup K, we have the following:

L > L3 > N > R > U > U8 > K

From a genetics standpoint each one of the bold groups above can be considered a "most recent common ancestor" to all groups below it. It's all a matter of how and where the term "most recent common ancestor - (MRCA)" is used.

cormac

[The_Spartan]

When your friend Dan Collins aka Feraldan was discussing his finds on the Pyramid Mountain, he wrote that

Quote

Hello. My name is Daniel Collins, Im a scientist and an archaeologist, and yesterday I was walking around the slopes of Pyramid Mountain near Cairns in north Queensland and I found some amazing rock engravings, when I got home, I found they were Sumerian, the very early pictograph form.">

in essence, he climbed down from the mountain, went home and in a short time, he managed to decipher the engravings into ancient Sumerian.

Cormac mac airt asked him a question

Quote

Can I take it then that you are an accredited Sumerologist, expert in the translation/transliteration of Sumerian? If so, how are those translations/transliterations received by your peers?

to which Dan replied

Quote

actually I am an expert on ancient sumerian script, and their culture, history and origins.
Im particularly adept at reading their pictographs and more recent cuneform
Dan

and

in a later post he wrote that the cuneiform which he found on the pyramid  mountain could be 7000-7500 years old

Quote

they dont refer to ancient Egyptian and Sumerian as the same writing system, theres just a lot of pictographs or glyphs that are similar or the same, whether there was somebody who visited both places or not we do not know, but for some reason the very early Egyptian Glyphs do have some similarities with ancient Sumerian. They date to around 7000-7500 years ago.

to which cormac and many others pointed out that sumerian cuneiform didn't exist that long ago

Quote

In the OP the language was claimed to be Sumerian, therefore relative to Sumer c.3200 BC at the earliest, but in Post #36 he claims the pictographs are 7000 - 7500 years old which makes them 5000 - 5500 BC. This grossly predates the Sumerian civilization and is contemporary in time with the Ubaidians, yet he claims to have translated them.

Quote

good points on the known development of cultures in prehistoric Iraq. In my longwinded preceding post I stressed the earliest possible appearance for cuneiform at 3400 BCE, but I was only pulling that from my head. You're more correct, cormac, although I can now revise my figures to possibly as old as 3300 (not 3400) BCE. Still, considerably divorced from 7,000 years ago.

and in the end, after many request for his qualifications to decipher proto sumerian, he posts his Masters certificate, which was not in ancient languages or archaeology or whatever, but in conservation Biology.

Then, why did Dan claim to be

Quote

actually I am an expert on ancient sumerian script, and their culture, history and origins.
Im particularly adept at reading their pictographs and more recent cuneform
Dan

Period.


and the same to you -  would you claim yourself to be an expert in deciphering the Pyramid Mountain Engravings?
in your pdf you state that you are

Quote

a Ph.D. student in modern Languages with a keen interest in Anthropology, Archeology and some knowledge of Egyptology and a Degree in Multiculturalism

A doctorate in modern languages and the ability to decipher Sumerian Cuneiform or Egyptian Hieroglyphs has vast difference.

From your own translation of the Kariong Glyphs

Quote

Thus speaks his Highness the Prince from this wretched place within this land, transported there by ship. Doing this writing for the Crown of Lower Egypt, according to God's Words.The fellaheen call out from this place in this strange land, for Suti.

I, Nefer-Djeseb, Son of the King Khufu, The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, beloved of "Ptah" have transported "Suti"


"He (Nefer-Ti-Ru) is kind (and) benevolent, (a) follower (of the) golden-haired God, "Ra-Heru." "Two years that I (He ?) make way westwards, I (He, Nefer Ti-Ru) (put) up strong front, praying, joyful, smiting Insects. His Highness, a Servant of God, He (say's) God brings the Insects, thus thine own Fellaheen protect."

in wiki, though not authorative, but with good references, the sons of Khufu are listed as below

Quote

Sons of Khufu

• Crown Prince Kawab – the eldest son of Khufu and Meritites I.
• Djedefra – successor of Khufu; Djedefra's mother is unknown.^[5]
• Khafre – son of Khufu and Queen Henutsen, he succeeded his brother Djedefra as king.^[5][7]
• Djedefhor – also known as Hordjedef. King's Son of his Body, Count, Keeper of Nekhen. Known from the Westcar Papyrus. Buried in the G 7000 cemetery in Giza (G 7210-7220).^[5][7]
• Baufra – son of Khufu; some have suggested Baufra is identical to Babaef. Attested in an inscription in Wadi Hammamat, and known from theWestcar Papyrus.^[5]
• Babaef I – son of Khufu, also called Khnum-baf. Known from his tomb in Giza.^[5][7]
• Khufukhaf I – son of Khufu and Henutsen. Known from his double mastaba in Giza (G 7130-7140).^[5][7]
• Minkhaf I – son of Khufu and Henutsen. Served as Vizier during the reign of his brothers Djedefre and Khafre.^[5][7]
• Horbaef – son of Khufu. Known from his tomb in Giza which he shared with Meresankh II^[5][7]

So, where did Nefer-Djeseb and his brother Nefer-Ti-Ru come from???


Have you submitted your translations etc for peer review?

Edited by The_Spartan, 02 April 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Archimedes]

cormac mac airt, on 02 April 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

I think you've confused yourself with your own wording. It's not the line but it is the line? Kind of contradictory, don't you think?

Ah, my reading of your post was sloppy, you accurately foreworded the posted about Mitrochondrial Eve with "as to the maternal line" and I browsed quickly through the post, missing that critical sentence fragment, thinking that you were talking about some human who lived 200,000 years ago as being some sort of Biblical-esque Eve that we are all descended from as the progenitor of mankind.


My bad.




I've seen too many horrible descriptions and misunderstandings of evolution, Y-chromosome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, etc. that perhaps I jump to rash conclusions I shouldn't.

[cormac mac airt]

Archimedes, on 03 April 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Ah, my reading of your post was sloppy, you accurately foreworded the posted about Mitrochondrial Eve with "as to the maternal line" and I browsed quickly through the post, missing that critical sentence fragment, thinking that you were talking about some human who lived 200,000 years ago as being some sort of Biblical-esque Eve that we are all descended from as the progenitor of mankind.


My bad.




I've seen too many horrible descriptions and misunderstandings of evolution, Y-chromosome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, etc. that perhaps I jump to rash conclusions I shouldn't.

It happens, don't worry about it. At least you're not confusing the genetic "Adam" and "Eve" for the Biblical ones. That would be inexcusable.

cormac

[The Truth hurts]

The Proto Egyptian Glyphs at Kariong, N.S.W. stem from the 4th. Dynasty. hence they are only some 4.500 years old. According to Betro, the oldest glyph is 6.000 years old. It has been stated, that the Egyptian writing stated about 3.100 years before Christ, to which Gardiner in his Egyptian Grammar added a couple of hundred years.

The Proto Egyptian Glyphs at Kariong were engraved with stone chisels (Basalt with olivite crystal inclusion, not obtainable in Australia, but in Egypt and North America) by up to eight engravers,
(Ray Johnson)into the soft sandstone. Among the glyphs are the telltale square Cartouches, employed by the 4th. Dynasty and only during the 4th. Dynasty, because it had four corners and four sides,representing the 4th. Dynasty, a fact not known to most Egyptologist. (de Jonge 2012)

These Proto Egyptian glyphs changed to Old Egyptian from the 4th. to the 6th.Dynasty, hence over a period of two Dynasties, i.e only
a short time in recorded Egyptian History, where the Kings List dates back some 25.000 years. (Manetho),thereby suggesting that the recorded Egyptian History is far older than the times given by modern Egyptologist.

These facts became painfully obvious during research and the transliteration of the Glyphs, bearing in mind that over 8.000 glyphs exist, many of which were used only once.

As stated previously, I am using Ray Johnsons "Basic Hieroglyphia" by permission of the copyright holder. it contains close to 3.000
glyphs, many of which are absent in the works of Gardiner, Betro, Witthuhn, Budge and Allen, yet complement each other and allow me to use some 3.000 plus glyphs in my research. A glyph used at Kariong appears uniquely Australian, it is the body of a tick, whith the glyph of the upside down J.Post joined to it. As the Glyph (J.Post) means Ïrrefutable Evidence, this part of the inscription found by Dan Collins was translated as: We have irrefutable evidence (implied), for the crown of Northern Egypt (represented by the plant symbol for northern Egypt) that our two comrades (numeral 2) where killed by tick bite. (Southern Wall) which is supplemented by the following: We buried them, on a sunny day in a GES (side chamber) we prepared their House of eternity for them. You find them behind the Doorway, at the rear.

As these glyphs are heavily eroded,hence untouched by the hands of the Archaeological Students of Sydney University, who re-carved the main site back in 1964, they are an original inscription, unseen by lay persons and Egyptologist. The same applies to the Glyphs found by Jake Cassar on a higher level. Hence both inscriptions prove the fact that the original Proto-Egyptian glyphs impliedly denied by the Hoaxers still exist and are no hoax.

Hence both Dan Collins and Jake Cassar made a historic contribution to the rearch of "Äncient Egyptians in Australia."

How many of the Mocker's can claim likewise ???

Hans-Dieter von Senff, Ph.D.

[Swede]

The Truth hurts, on 03 April 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

The Proto Egyptian Glyphs at Kariong, N.S.W. stem from the 4th. Dynasty. hence they are only some 4.500 years old. According to Betro, the oldest glyph is 6.000 years old. It has been stated, that the Egyptian writing stated about 3.100 years before Christ, to which Gardiner in his Egyptian Grammar added a couple of hundred years.

The Proto Egyptian Glyphs at Kariong were engraved with stone chisels (Basalt with olivite crystal inclusion, not obtainable in Australia, but in Egypt and North America) by up to eight engravers,
(Ray Johnson)into the soft sandstone. Among the glyphs are the telltale square Cartouches, employed by the 4th. Dynasty and only during the 4th. Dynasty, because it had four corners and four sides,representing the 4th. Dynasty, a fact not known to most Egyptologist. (de Jonge 2012)

These Proto Egyptian glyphs changed to Old Egyptian from the 4th. to the 6th.Dynasty, hence over a period of two Dynasties, i.e only
a short time in recorded Egyptian History, where the Kings List dates back some 25.000 years. (Manetho),thereby suggesting that the recorded Egyptian History is far older than the times given by modern Egyptologist.

These facts became painfully obvious during research and the transliteration of the Glyphs, bearing in mind that over 8.000 glyphs exist, many of which were used only once.

As stated previously, I am using Ray Johnsons "Basic Hieroglyphia" by permission of the copyright holder. it contains close to 3.000
glyphs, many of which are absent in the works of Gardiner, Betro, Witthuhn, Budge and Allen, yet complement each other and allow me to use some 3.000 plus glyphs in my research. A glyph used at Kariong appears uniquely Australian, it is the body of a tick, whith the glyph of the upside down J.Post joined to it. As the Glyph (J.Post) means Ïrrefutable Evidence, this part of the inscription found by Dan Collins was translated as: We have irrefutable evidence (implied), for the crown of Northern Egypt (represented by the plant symbol for northern Egypt) that our two comrades (numeral 2) where killed by tick bite. (Southern Wall) which is supplemented by the following: We buried them, on a sunny day in a GES (side chamber) we prepared their House of eternity for them. You find them behind the Doorway, at the rear.

As these glyphs are heavily eroded,hence untouched by the hands of the Archaeological Students of Sydney University, who re-carved the main site back in 1964, they are an original inscription, unseen by lay persons and Egyptologist. The same applies to the Glyphs found by Jake Cassar on a higher level. Hence both inscriptions prove the fact that the original Proto-Egyptian glyphs impliedly denied by the Hoaxers still exist and are no hoax.

Hence both Dan Collins and Jake Cassar made a historic contribution to the rearch of "Äncient Egyptians in Australia."

How many of the Mocker's can claim likewise ???

Hans-Dieter von Senff, Ph.D.

Do not have the time this eve to address all of you speculations, but will point out a few factors.

First, the presence of olivine in basalt (or other igneous materials) is not at all uncommon.

Secondly, olivine-bearing basalt does occur in Australia. Well documented outcrops are present in New South Wales:

http://www.minsocam....41/AM41_724.pdf

http://dbforms.ga.go...r=stratno=40192

Third, by what manner of determination (as per your "book") have you concluded the age of the weathering of the "glyphs"?

Lastly, are we to understand that you are utilizing Manetho in order to claim that an organized pre-dynastic Egyptian culture (complete with pharaohs?) dates to a period prior to the LGM?

.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

We have irrefutable evidence (implied), for the crown of Northern Egypt (represented by the plant symbol for northern Egypt) that our two comrades (numeral 2) where killed by tick bite.

We buried them, on a sunny day in a GES (side chamber) we prepared their House of eternity for them. You find them behind the Doorway, at the rear.

Interesting, considering how over the entire 3000+ years of Ancient Egypts existance there is no evidence of AE texts/inscriptions worded like this. Nor is there evidence at any burial site that person "X" could be found in a specific location. This reads more and more like fiction with every passing day.

cormac

[The_Spartan]

Gentleman, would you , could you keep the words like Mockers etc with yourself.?
This is a discussion forum, where there are people who wouldn't support what you got to say.
they are not mocking you, but are asking questions.
you have not been on this board to know all of us over here to decide who is mocking you and who is not.
so, please be civil.

Edited by The_Spartan, 03 April 2012 - 04:02 AM.

[The Truth hurts]

The_Spartan, on 03 April 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Gentleman, would you , could you keep the words like Mockers etc with yourself.?
This is a discussion forum, where there are people who wouldn't support what you got to say.
they are not mocking you, but are asking questions.
you have not been on this board to know all of us over here to decide who is mocking you and who is not.
so, please be civil.

Spartan, my apology, I'll try to be civil, ok.