64 replies to this topic

[Simbi Laveau]

ChloeB, on 03 April 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Constantine, what a prick!  I went to an Ostara ritual once, Jorel.  It didn't feel evil or bad, they even gave us bubbles.  But I'm not a Christian, but there's a part of me that kind of likes that you admit Easter is what it is, but do feel the same about Christmas?  He wasn't born then.  You know to me, if they were going to put the birth and crucifixion on Pagan holidays, they should have put the birth on Easter and the crucifixion on Christmas, the death of the sun, but that's just me.  This is to me my impression of the differences in Christianity and Paganism.......Paganism is about life and this life and appreciating and celebrating the cycles of it, and Christianity, well it's about death and shunning this world that is Satan's world and all it's temptations and allure and to focus on death, what happens after death, all the good stuff and treats come then.  Pagans get chocolate bunnies now, Christians get infinite endless chocolate if they don't get too hung up on the earth and it's people and just try to think about Jesus and God all the time.  So Easter is a celebration of life and mother earth and her cycles, probably not what Christians ought to be doing, which is a shame, but you guys know what I think about it.  I think the way the Pagans have the Mother Goddess is awesome, probably the most spiritual connected I've ever felt is with that.

We dance and sing and toss flowers and have a bbq .Fresh fruits and Yummy drinks.
All our celebrations are like this.Be it Ostara,Maypole,or Yule.
Samhain is more quiet,but i adore dumb supper.The most interesting peeps make appearances.

It's a whole lot more fun and loving than sitting around reading crap out of some book,while being force fed dry ham and hot cross buns,while family spats go on in all corners of the house.
Feh.

[Beckys_Mom]

DingoLingo, on 04 April 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Wash your mouth out ... its always about the chocolate So Speaketh the Chocoholic

I know  lol

This year however, my young daughter told me she doesn't want too many chocolate eggs  again... Last year  at least 5 large chocolate eggs went to waste  ......

She requested   toys instead...and money...  

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 05 April 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[spud the mackem]

Paranoid Android, on 05 April 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Actually, I think you'll find some such as Martin Luther to bear much more responsibility for the Protestant Reformation.  Henry VIII jumped on the Protestant bandwagon more than a decade after Luther first challenged the Catholic Church.  And I don't think Henry ever personally changed anything about Catholicism during his time, he simply appointed himself the head of the Church of England in order to approve of his penchant for divorce, thus causing a split with Rome.

Sorry for splitting hairs, I just thought I'd clarify matters

  It matters not friend,it happened and there is little we can do to change it,may YOUR God go with you....cheers...

[Paranoid Android]

spud the mackem, on 05 April 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

It matters not friend,it happened and there is little we can do to change it,may YOUR God go with you....cheers...

Why thank you.  My God will go with me, it is always a comfort to be reminded of that.  Not sure why I'd want to change it, the Reformation brought Christianity back to its 2nd Century doctrinal roots.  And may he also go with all those who worship Christ, regardless of denominational background

Edited by Paranoid Android, 06 April 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Jor-el, on 02 April 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

The pagan festival of Easter originated as the worship of the sun goddess, the Babylonian Queen of Heaven, who was later worshipped under many names including Ishtar, Cyble, Idaea Mater (the great mother), or Astarte for whom the celebration of Easter is named. Easter is the celebration commemorating the death and ressurection of Tammuz the "sun god." As legend has it, Tammuz was out hunting, when he was killed by a wild boar. He is said to have been in the ground three days and then ressurected to ascend into heaven to become the "sun god." (Does it sound familiar?) Easter is not another name for the feast of Passover and is not celebrated at the Biblically prescribed time for Passover. This pagan festival was given a "Christianized" theme 100 years after Christ.

History records the words of Hyginus, an Egyptian, who was a librarian at the Palestine library in Rome during the time of Ceaser Agustus: "An egg of wonderous size is said to have fallen from heaven into the river Euphrates. The fishes rolled it to the bank, where the doves having settled upon it, hatched it, out came Venus, who afterwards was called the Syrian Goddess." That Syrian Goddess, supposedly hatched from the egg, was Astarte, from whom the title "Easter" came from. After Easter/Astarte ascended to heaven she is said to be escorted by rabbits laying colored eggs. The rabbits being a pagan fertility symbol because of their procreation habits, and are also a pagan symbol for spring and the eggs being traditionally a symbol of new life.

Easter vs Passover

We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course [the order of the days of the week]; and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews.

Constantine I

From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council. (Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)

When reviewing the historical record of the “Passover/Easter” controversy, it is undeniable that the early New Testament Church did not observe Easter. They continued observing Passover, but with a new significance and understanding. In fact one can state that as the church became more gentile and less Jewish in substance, that gentile christians started repudiating all things jewish, until they in fact initiated a trend that culminated in direct anti-semitism, thereby cutting off their own roots.

"Neither the apostles, therefore nor the Gospels, have anywhere imposed…Easter…The Savior and His apostles have enjoined us by no law to keep this feast [Easter]…And that the observance originated not by legislation [of the apostles], but as a custom the facts themselves indicate"
Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History V, chapter 22).

So, shouldn't we as christians do the right thing and repudiate this false celebration, and return to our roots, celebrating Passover?

I think that would be a great error. The ceremony of easter celebrates the death and ressurection of christ , arguably the critical and pivotal  theologicala underpinning of christianity itself. Pass over was a jewish ceremony with jewish roots and significance, and may be considered a part of the symbology of easter. Easter is inpart a celebration of rebirth fertility and life, (and that should be remembered by christians too as part of the symbology)

But, in the modern age, easter is one of the two great christian festivals left to us (once there were hundreds of them, including many forming the lead up to easter itself).

No. I think there is a lot to be said for recognising and celebrationg easter, especially if one keeps in mind its other historical antecedents. Modern christianity, rather than separating itself from its jewish roots, should, and often does, tend to embrace them.
Many of the "errors" in christianity have come from this  forced differntiation you mention in your post.

[eight bits]

Jor-el

Quote

I have a number of issues with your view, none of them major, but I believe they are in need of clarification.

We're doing well, considering our history, to have no major differences.

Quote

Protestants like all other christians do not amphasize the death of Jesus more than his resurrection, which is what I gathered from your post.

Protestants and adherents of the older churches typically differ about meanings of the death of Jesus and of his resurrection. That doesn't imply any difference in "emphasis," only a difference in what aspects about each event are emphasized.

I was responding to the earlier poster who remarked on an explanation of Pasch which cited only its potential impact on personal beliefs about christology. Such an explanation would more likely be taught in some churches, and less likely in others.

One thing I would have hoped you got from my answer is that I have no intention of arbitrating the rival claims about who is the legitimate successor to Second Temple Judaism, and so who has authority to set a "correct" date for Passover. I didn't mention Second Temple Judaism in connection with its own calendar(s), but rather because it is the most recent common ancestor of all living claimants to Paschal authority.

That Pasch has another name in English, one that is derived from an earlier Germanic word used by pagans, fails to persuade me that Pasch is pagan. YHWH has a name in English, God, that is derived from an earlier Germanic word used by pagans, gott. YHWH isn't a pagan god.

As I pointed out in my post, there's lots to celebrate this time of year. There's nothing suspect that annual celebrations that all fall at around the same time get merged. The United States celebrates a holiday called "Presidents' Day" which commemorates the birth of its first President  (Washington, born February 22) and its President during the Civil War (Lincoln, born February 12). Formerly, these anniversaries were separate holidays, but became merged fairly recently.

Does combining the holidays slight Washington? Does calling it Presidents' Day imply disrespect for Washington's other contributions to American history? Was this blatant de-emphasis of his military leadership in the Revolutionary War a vindication of the French, who have always felt that Lafayette was the real victor in the North American War?

President's Day, should patriotic Americans celebrate it?

[Jor-el]

Mr Walker, on 07 April 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

I think that would be a great error. The ceremony of easter celebrates the death and ressurection of christ , arguably the critical and pivotal  theologicala underpinning of christianity itself. Pass over was a jewish ceremony with jewish roots and significance, and may be considered a part of the symbology of easter. Easter is inpart a celebration of rebirth fertility and life, (and that should be remembered by christians too as part of the symbology)

But, in the modern age, easter is one of the two great christian festivals left to us (once there were hundreds of them, including many forming the lead up to easter itself).

No. I think there is a lot to be said for recognising and celebrationg easter, especially if one keeps in mind its other historical antecedents. Modern christianity, rather than separating itself from its jewish roots, should, and often does, tend to embrace them.
Many of the "errors" in christianity have come from this  forced differntiation you mention in your post.

It was an error to create Easter to replace Passover. We have divorced ourselves from our Jewish roots, and nowhere do I see christianity embracing its jewish roots. More often we denigrate them, than embrace them.

The fact that people the world over ignore that Easter was never a christian feast to begin with is shocking to me.

[Jor-el]

eight bits, on 07 April 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Jor-el


We're doing well, considering our history, to have no major differences.


Protestants and adherents of the older churches typically differ about meanings of the death of Jesus and of his resurrection. That doesn't imply any difference in "emphasis," only a difference in what aspects about each event are emphasized.

I was responding to the earlier poster who remarked on an explanation of Pasch which cited only its potential impact on personal beliefs about christology. Such an explanation would more likely be taught in some churches, and less likely in others.

One thing I would have hoped you got from my answer is that I have no intention of arbitrating the rival claims about who is the legitimate successor to Second Temple Judaism, and so who has authority to set a "correct" date for Passover. I didn't mention Second Temple Judaism in connection with its own calendar(s), but rather because it is the most recent common ancestor of all living claimants to Paschal authority.

That Pasch has another name in English, one that is derived from an earlier Germanic word used by pagans, fails to persuade me that Pasch is pagan. YHWH has a name in English, God, that is derived from an earlier Germanic word used by pagans, gott. YHWH isn't a pagan god.

As I pointed out in my post, there's lots to celebrate this time of year. There's nothing suspect that annual celebrations that all fall at around the same time get merged. The United States celebrates a holiday called "Presidents' Day" which commemorates the birth of its first President  (Washington, born February 22) and its President during the Civil War (Lincoln, born February 12). Formerly, these anniversaries were separate holidays, but became merged fairly recently.

Does combining the holidays slight Washington? Does calling it Presidents' Day imply disrespect for Washington's other contributions to American history? Was this blatant de-emphasis of his military leadership in the Revolutionary War a vindication of the French, who have always felt that Lafayette was the real victor in the North American War?

President's Day, should patriotic Americans celebrate it?

Ah but my problem is not that they were merged, that never happened, my problem is that the church took over a perfectly pagan (as in non-christian) festival, and chrisianized it, and in doing so divorced itself completely and utterly from the festival which was their heritage, The Passover.

That the Passover was jewish was further incentive for doing so, which showed that it was also an anti-semitic act and admitted to be so by Constantine himself.

[Pinx]

spud the mackem, on 04 April 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Easter hols change every year ?...Is it something to do with the seasons or set by the church ? who cares you have a couple of days off,so dont go and spoil it OK....Happy Easter to all those people who know what its about, One of the posts above said that the Greeks had the 1st alphabet, well dont forget the Chinese who were writing stuff and had an alphabet around 4500 yrs ago,I think that beats the Greeks by a couple of weeks or so....

It pretty much always falls on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the spring equinox.

[Mr Walker]

[quote]name='Jor-el' timestamp='1333829519' post='4258188']
It was an error to create Easter to replace Passover. [/quote]

Why? One is a festival for jewish people celebrating a critical event in jewish history. The other is a festival for christian people celebrating an event critical to them. The fact that the crucifixion overlapped, chronologically, the passover can be seen as coincidence or design depending on your pov.

But the two, while linked, are different events.


Arguably more contrversial is the way  developing christianity deliberatley interwove elemnts of many other religious beleifs, including pagan,  into itself. Thus a celebration of spring rebirth and renewal became tied into the christian easter tradition. The same thing hapened with christmas.  As long as people remember the basic reasons to celebrate easter, christmas etc., I just cant see the problem as you do

[quote]We have divorced ourselves from our Jewish roots, and nowhere do I see christianity embracing its jewish roots. More often we denigrate them, than embrace them.[/quote]

My wife belongs to a church which still washes their feet at ordinanaces, still worships on sabbath from sunset fri. to sunset sat. and still folows many of the principles of the old testament, so I am more aware of the ongoing jewishness of biblical christianity than some.

But you have a point. Modern christianity, both catholic and most protestant denominations, are the product of a long historical evlution which has diverged them from biblical christianity. To me christianity embraces both the OT and the NT with christ as a fulcrum or pivot between the two .

Historically christ and all the disciples were jews. They worshipped as jews . Paul "gentiled" the  early church, and in doing so both removed some of its jewish background, but also made it a lot  more accesible to non jews. Christianity  could not remain  entirely jewish and be christianity.

[quote]The fact that people the world over ignore that Easter was never a christian feast to begin with is shocking to me.[/quote]

You mean immediately after christ? But early christians did gather to clebrate christs death and resurrection. And we see this in the writings of the bible at his ascension. So while it was not called easter this period of celebration began immmediately after christs death and resurrection.

Perhaps it was also linked into the passover period at this time and early christian jews celbrated both together
And easter HAs been christian tradition  since  about 132 AD, when easter sunday was first observed  in palestine. It appears to heve been a response to persecution of  jewish practices by emperor hadrian,  which caused christians to change some of their original  jewish days of worship The council of nicea formally changed the dates and set the new times for celebrating easter.
I can see your point. What began as a way to avoid persecution by romans evolved into an anti semitic custom, as people wanted to separate christianity from judaism. As it separated, the normal fears and hatreds of divisiveness and difference evolved, and grew stronger. People forgot their common antecedents.

But in a sense that separtion had occured with paul and quite early christians. Today they are quite separate and very difernt religions. While i follow some jewish traditions and customs as outlined in the bible (because christ did) and respect jewish history and tradition, I am not a jew. If i chose to be a jew my life would be very different again.
If i was a jew, Passover would mean a lot to me, culturally and historically. As I am not a jew I dont quite understand why you feel passover, in itself, should mean anything to me, more than three millenia later.

Edited by Mr Walker, 08 April 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[Copen]

Some children call their grandmother "Nanna" or other names; but it means "Grandma." We call the resurrection "Easter" because the Bible says it was the pagan holiday of Easter. For the Christians the name "Easter" means the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It seems to me that here's nothing wrong with that. But when there are lies about the bunny bringing baskets filled with toys, and chocolates, and colored eggs, and Easter egg hunting, then Christians are participating in the pagan worship of life and fertility. It has nothing to do with the death of Christ for sins and His resurrection. Pagantry always draws the focus away from Jesus. Pagantry always seems like a lot more fun. The devil seems to be rewarding Christians in the long run with misery they could have avoided.
God bless

[Jor-el]

Mr Walker, on 08 April 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Why? One is a festival for jewish people celebrating a critical event in jewish history. The other is a festival for christian people celebrating an event critical to them. The fact that the crucifixion overlapped, chronologically, the passover can be seen as coincidence or design depending on your pov.

But the two, while linked, are different events.


Arguably more contrversial is the way  developing christianity deliberatley interwove elemnts of many other religious beleifs, including pagan,  into itself. Thus a celebration of spring rebirth and renewal became tied into the christian easter tradition. The same thing hapened with christmas.  As long as people remember the basic reasons to celebrate easter, christmas etc., I just cant see the problem as you do.

Passover was celebrated by christians, it was their real time of celebration of the death and resurrection of Christ.

It was celebrated by all the Apostles, all the christians, whether of Jewish descent or gentile descent. It was celebrated by Paul. Nowhere is Easter mentioned. Easter is an invention the later church to destroy any and all connections to its jewish origins. It was so successful that people do not even realize that it was once quite different.

There was no coincidence in Jesus  dying on the eve of Passover, it was also no coincidence that he was ressurrected on the Sunday, the day of First Fruits. It was no coincidence that he was born on the Day of Trumpets. Do you realize what I am getting at?

The entire Jewish litany of Feasts is in itself a prophetic declaration of the life and work of Jesus Christ. We have effectively divorced ouselves from all of it, we can't even make a connection with it because most christians are so steeped in the myth, rather than the history of it all.

Quote

My wife belongs to a church which still washes their feet at ordinanaces, still worships on sabbath from sunset fri. to sunset sat. and still folows many of the principles of the old testament, so I am more aware of the ongoing jewishness of biblical christianity than some.

But you have a point. Modern christianity, both catholic and most protestant denominations, are the product of a long historical evlution which has diverged them from biblical christianity. To me christianity embraces both the OT and the NT with christ as a fulcrum or pivot between the two .

Historically christ and all the disciples were jews. They worshipped as jews . Paul "gentiled" the  early church, and in doing so both removed some of its jewish background, but also made it a lot  more accesible to non jews. Christianity  could not remain  entirely jewish and be christianity.

Paul did no such thing, he exempted gentiles from having to follow the rules in place at the time that were unique to Jews, what he did not do is effectively exempt the church from knowing where they came from and why or from following the celebrations that Glorified their Christ, their Messiah.

Quote

You mean immediately after christ? But early christians did gather to clebrate christs death and resurrection. And we see this in the writings of the bible at his ascension. So while it was not called easter this period of celebration began immmediately after christs death and resurrection.

Perhaps it was also linked into the passover period at this time and early christian jews celbrated both together
And easter HAs been christian tradition  since  about 132 AD, when easter sunday was first observed  in palestine. It appears to heve been a response to persecution of  jewish practices by emperor hadrian,  which caused christians to change some of their original  jewish days of worship The council of nicea formally changed the dates and set the new times for celebrating easter.
I can see your point. What began as a way to avoid persecution by romans evolved into an anti semitic custom, as people wanted to separate christianity from judaism. As it separated, the normal fears and hatreds of divisiveness and difference evolved, and grew stronger. People forgot their common antecedents.

But in a sense that separtion had occured with paul and quite early christians. Today they are quite separate and very difernt religions. While i follow some jewish traditions and customs as outlined in the bible (because christ did) and respect jewish history and tradition, I am not a jew. If i chose to be a jew my life would be very different again.
If i was a jew, Passover would mean a lot to me, culturally and historically. As I am not a jew I dont quite understand why you feel passover, in itself, should mean anything to me, more than three millenia later.

There is no perhaps, christians celebrated passover, for a very real reason that it was the time that Jesus died and was resurrected. He was the Paschal lamb, he was the lamb that took away the sins of the world in the words of John the Baptist. He was the First Fruits of of those who have fallen asleep in Pauls own words.

To me it was a sin of an extraordinary magnitude, to divorce ourselves from all of this.

Edited by Jor-el, 08 April 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Jor-el]

Copen, on 08 April 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

Some children call their grandmother "Nanna" or other names; but it means "Grandma." We call the resurrection "Easter" because the Bible says it was the pagan holiday of Easter. For the Christians the name "Easter" means the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It seems to me that here's nothing wrong with that. But when there are lies about the bunny bringing baskets filled with toys, and chocolates, and colored eggs, and Easter egg hunting, then Christians are participating in the pagan worship of life and fertility. It has nothing to do with the death of Christ for sins and His resurrection. Pagantry always draws the focus away from Jesus. Pagantry always seems like a lot more fun. The devil seems to be rewarding Christians in the long run with misery they could have avoided.
God bless

The bible never mentions Easter in any way, it does mention Passover many times though. This a fact and it is the reason for this thread. The church did christianity a disservice when they changed the celebration from its righful date to a date that has nothing to do with christianity in any way whatsoever.

[Beckys_Mom]

Jor-el, on 08 April 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

The bible never mentions Easter in any way, it does mention Passover many times though. This a fact and it is the reason for this thread.

Did you enjoy your  Easter Jorel.?..Hope you didn't eat too many eggs  lol

[Sherapy]

HerNibs, on 02 April 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

I celebrate it.    All the colors and springtime stuff.  Eggs, candy, gifts, etc.

Having a big dinner on Sunday.  My daughter-in-law celebrates only the Christian version (Jesus back from the dead, etc.)

I just combine everything.  She takes the granddaughters to church in the morning.  Then to my house for the "pagan" celebration.

She says a quick prayer before dinner.  Those of us that don't believe just sit quietly and respectfully because we love her and the girls.

Not a huge deal but a wonderful time.  She is worshipping in her way and we celebrate the spring in ours.  

Combines beautifully.

Nibs

Whoops - forgot to add -

It's what the event means in our hearts that is important isn't it?

Indeed it is.   Nibs this is the  most beautiful post I have read today.

In my home (as an  atheist) our motto is  we make room for all beliefs here.