52 replies to this topic

[Paranoid Android]

Arbenol68, on 04 April 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Sometimes it really is as simple as that. Boring, I know.

I have no testimony to explain why I don't believe in God. I don't remember a time that I ever did. My parents were catholic and we went to church. Some of my earlier memories are of sitting there during the interminable mass and wondering if everyone else there really believed all of it.

Our world view is shaped by our experience.  It's not "boring" if it is just as simple as that.  You see, in expanding on your own experience you've incorporated your atheist testimony into the simple statement of always being atheist (or not remembering ever believing) - "Some of my earliest memories are of...."

Just a thought,

[Paranoid Android]

flynismo, on 04 April 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I truly hope I do not offend any religious folk here, but the truth is, the more I read the Bible, the further away I was pushed from religion as a whole. Then some religious history and comparative religion studies later, I came to accept what I always felt deep down...

Hi flynismo,

I don't think anyone here is going to be offended by your statement.  I will say that my experience was the exact opposite of yours.  I didn't grow up in a Christian family, but the more I read the Bible (around the age of 20'ish) the closer I came to God, so I converted to Christianity. It's always interesting how two people come to exact opposite experiences after reading the exact same thing.

Anyway, welcome to UM, I hope you enjoy your stay here, and hopefully we'll see you around the forum more often

[Ratte]

I've always questioned things. I'm still looking for evidence. I might never 'pick a side' and that's fine with me. But the moment I realized that I didn't know was when, after my mom told me that god would take away my pain and protect me, two kids in my Sunday school class were picking on me repeatedly and ruthlessly.

[Parsip]

Hmmm. Well, I've had three belief systems. First Islam, then Christianity, and now my own non-religious spirituality. I don't think I ever believed in Islam. It just didn't make sense to me and seemed to be merely "do this and don't do this or you'll go to Hell." But I still believed in Allah, although after the 9/11 attacks I completely abandoned Islam. In a way, the attacks simultaneously destroyed and saved my life.

After that I was a Christian, more or less. At that age I didn't have much access to Christian books and such, and I simply believed in God and that Jesus was my savior. But my life kept worsening and I couldn't see it getting better anytime soon. Of course, I didn't know about patience and perseverance then, but my reasoning as a child was "if bad things keep happening to me, then God is either unable or unwilling to help me", and so I stopped following God, but I still believed in him, and because of that I hated him for letting me suffer. I didn't think about him much after that, and before I knew it I stopped believing in him altogether.

Then I found myself an atheist. A typical hateful, amoral atheist. I was fine with abortion, carefree ssex, insulting religious people, you name it. It was one of the darkest times in my life, but thanks to science (the unborn are living human beings, sexual promiscuity is emotionally damaging [at least to women], etc.), politics (mainly the concept of inherent human rights), and quite a few spiritual experiences that I dismissed as nonsensical, unscientific delusions at first but later had no choice but to accept, I managed to climb out of the dark hole known as nonspiritual atheism.

Edited by Parsip, 04 April 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Mr Walker]

_Only, on 03 April 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

No, she is a typical Baptist Christian. Just very radical. I was only student in school who wasn't allowed to take sex ed class, wouldn't be allowed to go to any friends houses because "they weren't christian", wasn't allowed to have a girlfriend until I was old enough to marry, the list goes on and on. Really aggravating stuff. I invited her to my high school graduation, and she declined. Haven't talked to her since; 9 years later.

My parents werent christian (well maybe nominally) but they told me Id have to leave home if I smoked (cigarettes) at home. I was about 15 at the time. my reaction was differnt to yours, perhaps because i had alays been treated with love respect and  very fair disipline . I accepted their right to have house rules, and the requirement for me to live by them. I also accepted that I was on a very good wicket  at home. So i stayed and only smoked away from home.

Their rationale was also clear to me. I had 3 younger siblings. Both my mum and dad had already given up smoking to provide good role models, and I did not have the right to influence my younger siblings.

I was over 18 before i was tempted to have  sex with a  steady/serious girlfriend .We snuck off to my parents beach house, and on the way we hit a kangaroo and totalled the car.

When I had to make a clean breast of things my parents explained they had known all long what i was doing, because they had noticed the key to the shack was missing. The disappointment they expressed in my choice of behaviour was so upsetting to me, that i never cosidered going behind their back, ever again. I cant conceive of anythng that could have separated me from my parents. But i have cared for many adolescents who were kicked out of their homes.

[Ratte]

Parsip, on 04 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Hmmm. Well, I've had three belief systems. First Islam, then Christianity, and now my own non-religious spirituality. I don't think I ever believed in Islam. It just didn't make sense to me and seemed to be merely "do this and don't do this or you'll go to Hell." But I still believed in Allah, although after the 9/11 attacks I completely abandoned Islam. In a way, the attacks simultaneously destroyed and saved my life.

After that I was a Christian, more or less. At that age I didn't have much access to Christian books and such, and I simply believed in God and that Jesus was my savior. But my life kept worsening and I couldn't see it getting better anytime soon. Of course, I didn't know about patience and perseverance then, but my reasoning as a child was "if bad things keep happening to me, then God is either unable or unwilling to help me", and so I stopped following God, but I still believed in him, and because of that I hated him for letting me suffer. I didn't think about him much after that, and before I knew it I stopped believing in him altogether.

Then I found myself an atheist. A typical hateful, amoral atheist. I was fine with abortion, carefree ssex, insulting religious people, you name it. It was one of the darkest times in my life, but thanks to science (the unborn are living human beings, sexual promiscuity is emotionally damaging [at least to women], etc.), politics (mainly the concept of inherent human rights), and quite a few spiritual experiences that I dismissed as nonsensical, unscientific delusions at first but later had no choice but to accept, I managed to climb out of the dark hole known as nonspiritual atheism.

Atheists are not typically anything other than non-believers. Its mildly offensive that someone would think atheists are amoral and I'm not even atheist. How is sexual promiscuity emotionally damaging to women? Why isn't it damaging to men? My best friend Jade has had a lot of partners and she is one of the happiest most vibrant people I know. It's great that you are happy now, but calling atheists amoral isn't any different from insulting religous folks. Sure, I dissagree with a lot of things religous texts say, but I wouldn't insult someone for their beliefs- unless they were being a jerk about it.

[karmakazi]

I consider myself agnostic, and saying I believe in god isn't quite right because while I believe in some kind of force out there, I don't believe in the very defined and personal deities of most religions.

The turning point for me wasn't about whether or not I believed in God or even whether or not I believed the words of Jesus, it was about religion itself.

I grew up in a family that was religious seemingly only out of fear.  My mom pretty much never went to church but clearly always felt guilt for not going, and growing up she and her siblings went through a time period when their parents became born again and suddenly everyone in the household had to abide by very, very strict rules.  It was all-but book burning.  They relaxed but the guilt and fear stuck with every single one of them, and they all express it in their own ways.  As I was growing up my grandmother would constantly ask my mom if I had been saved, my grandparents always talked about how various things were evil and I grew up thinking that every other religion was the equivalent of devil-worshippers.  Buddhism was a big target for my family, oddly enough.  I heard a lot how the buddha was a false god and so on.

So as I'm coming into adulthood I can't help my insatiable curiosity about all other religions, and started researching what it was that each believed.  They all, in their own way, expressed the "golden rule" as a main tenant.  I found that several talked about types of rebirth and reincarnation as well.  That was when I began formulating the idea that each religion may have its own methods, but the message is essentially the same.  It was years before I made a real break with the Christianity of my upbringing, to the point of realizing that though I agreed with much of what Jesus said, Christianity itself just felt wrong to me (as does every religion).  Through the course of going to various churches I'd been exposed to people talking in tongues, to the cadence and trance inducing music of revivalist ministers, and people telling BS stories to scare kids into praying.  As was mentioned by someone else, praying was always weird to me.

It was a long drawn out process and there was no single event that made me change my mind.  It was little things over the years that added up less and less and less that brought me to now, being agnostic and though I still follow the words of Jesus and Buddha and others like them, I reject any of the religions that have sprung up around these people.  To me, religion is flawed because of groupthink.  It influenced religions in the past, it influences people today, and for some reason I have always been outside the group mentality.  I never meshed with the rest   shocking I know!

The most important thing to me is seeking the truth.  I will go so far as to deliberately pick apart my own thoughts and beliefs, breaking them down to try and figure out the psychology behind my ideas and establish what parts of my beliefs are genuine beliefs and what parts come from a need for something.  So I guess a better way of saying it is I am always of two minds, two different egos constantly pecking at each other and trying to find the balance in between where real truth lies.  The 3rd side of the story, the impartial side which has nothing to gain by spinning the story.


Also in regards to some comments in the OP: I have actually met some atheists who are atheists because their parents stuffed religion down their throats as kids and they rebelled against it.  They tend to lash out at the religious unprovoked and have a chip on their shoulder against god and religion as a whole... but they are a small minority.  I just wanted to say that it does happen, and people who've known atheists such as this may think most atheists are this way... kind of like thinking most african americans love grape soda.  Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but making an assumption based on a label is unfair.

[Arbenol68]

Parsip, on 04 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Then I found myself an atheist. A typical hateful, amoral atheist. I was fine with abortion, carefree ssex, insulting religious people, you name it. It was one of the darkest times in my life, but thanks to science (the unborn are living human beings, sexual promiscuity is emotionally damaging [at least to women], etc.), politics (mainly the concept of inherent human rights), and quite a few spiritual experiences that I dismissed as nonsensical, unscientific delusions at first but later had no choice but to accept, I managed to climb out of the dark hole known as nonspiritual atheism.

If this was you as an atheist, you clearly weren't doing it right.

You're not describing an atheist there. You're describing a tw4t and an @rsehole. And before you say it, I realise that they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I get the impression you're still quite a young fella. Seems to me you just took some time to find what was right for you. Maybe you'll change again as you get on in life. Have you tried Scientology yet?

Edited by Arbenol68, 04 April 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[and then]

No!!! Not Scientology    Any church that would take Tom Cruise can't be right

[_Only]

karmakazi, on 04 April 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

So I guess a better way of saying it is I am always of two minds, two different egos constantly pecking at each other and trying to find the balance in between where real truth lies.  The 3rd side of the story, the impartial side which has nothing to gain by spinning the story.

I know just what you mean. Except it often creates more doubt in me in leaning toward either side, and I just end up not able to stop it from spinning each way.   But I think that's just me.

[Parsip]

Ratte, on 04 April 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Atheists are not typically anything other than non-believers. Its mildly offensive that someone would think atheists are amoral and I'm not even atheist. How is sexual promiscuity emotionally damaging to women? Why isn't it damaging to men? My best friend Jade has had a lot of partners and she is one of the happiest most vibrant people I know. It's great that you are happy now, but calling atheists amoral isn't any different from insulting religous folks. Sure, I dissagree with a lot of things religous texts say, but I wouldn't insult someone for their beliefs- unless they were being a jerk about it.

I think you misunderstood my post. I said that I was a typical amoral atheist, not that atheists are amoral.

As for the physical and emotional damage caused by promiscuity, this isn't the thread for that. But what I mean by promiscuity is, for example, easy, casual sex with 20 strangers (not at the same time, of course), not many relationships, or sexual preference, or dressing a certain way. I don't know for sure if it's damaging to men, but it is damaging to women, in general. Not all people/women are the same.

Edited by Parsip, 05 April 2012 - 06:28 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Parsip, on 05 April 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood my post. I said that I was a typical amoral atheist, not that atheists are amoral. And I said amoral, not immoral.

As for the physical and emotional damage caused by promiscuity, this isn't the thread for that. But what I mean by promiscuity is, for example, easy, mindless sex with 20 strangers (not at the same time, of course), not many relationships, or sexual preference, or dressing a certain way. I don't know for sure if it's damaging to men, but it is damaging to women.

why not at the same time ?   Extending an analogy to breaking point is a good way to ilustrate the validity of the basic point. So having sex with 20 stangers at one time is obviously damaging and the reasons why are clear.  working back; having sex with 20 strangers over 20 consecutive nights is also damaging for the same reasons. The n having sex with 20 strangers over a year is also damaging if perhaps to a lesser extent or degree.

And of course for the same basic reasions, having sex with just one complete strnager is not a safe idea, and potentially damaging. I would argue that, while women, especially youngish women, remain more vulnerable, (for many reasons ) men, and  society, are also endangered. I often have to deal with the long term effects of casual sex, both professionally and personally. It is often destructive, and sometimes catastrophically so, resulting in great personal turmoil for young men and women, and sometimes even  death.

[Parsip]

Arbenol68, on 04 April 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

If this was you as an atheist, you clearly weren't doing it right.

You're not describing an atheist there. You're describing a tw4t and an @rsehole. And before you say it, I realise that they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I get the impression you're still quite a young fella. Seems to me you just took some time to find what was right for you. Maybe you'll change again as you get on in life. Have you tried Scientology yet?

I've known many young atheists who are like I was, but I know not all atheists are the same, and I suppose rebelling against moral norms is common among young people in general, atheist or not.

Yes, I'm still quite young, and I have a feeling I'll become a Christian in the future. But I don't know a lot about the religion and what I do know doesn't seem enough to get me to convert. People usually call me a Christian anyway due to my habit of defending Christians from radical atheists. Funnily enough, not many people have called me a Muslim despite my location being the Middle East.

Edited by Parsip, 05 April 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Ratte]

Parsip, on 05 April 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood my post. I said that I was a typical amoral atheist, not that atheists are amoral.

As for the physical and emotional damage caused by promiscuity, this isn't the thread for that. But what I mean by promiscuity is, for example, easy, casual sex with 20 strangers (not at the same time, of course), not many relationships, or sexual preference, or dressing a certain way. I don't know for sure if it's damaging to men, but it is damaging to women, in general. Not all people/women are the same.

To say that a behavior is typical is to say that the majority of those people behave that way.

I'm not debating if having a lot of partners is or is not emotionally damaging. I'm asking why, though indirectly, you said 'especially women'.

That is another reason I dropped Christianity like a hot potato. It says women are weak, to be owned, cause problems, are dirty. They're not. Weak women are only weak because they let themselves be weak. Now keep in mind I am not talking about anyone with a medical condition that prevents them from working out. Women are not dirty. They bleed, big deal. If they didn't, there wouln't be any men. The bible says that because of that they are unclean. No one can own another.

[braveone2u]

I Am Not Resisting, on 03 April 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

I've actually asked this question of myself when I first 'really' realized I was atheist.  After looking back through my life I came to realize that I don't think I ever really believed in God.  

Edit to add: I didn't see PA's post before I started writing mine and it gave me a good little chuckle because my second sentence is exactly what he's talking about.  

You have a good "point" (I try to avoid using the word "excuse," for it makes one sound rather superior). The strange thing is, a person, who gets a concrete proof of something greater than himself/herself and a promise of something even greater, still turns away from that path, even for just a moment.