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How did deers develop their antlers?


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#1    Rolci

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:00 PM

This is a simple question, it might have been asked before, but I just watched a documentary and it had deers in it and they were shown fighting for the females and I wondered: Which came first, the inbuilt instinct that this is the appropriate form of deciding which male gets to mate with the females, or the development of the large antlers. I mean, without antlers the deer won't have anything to fight with so the fighting ritual would never even begin to develop, and without the fights today's deers' large and spectacular antlers wouldn't have developed through natural selection as they would mean no advantage. So how did it all happen? Ideas?

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#2    Yes_Man

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:49 PM

They were used for defence from predators, the same goes for Gazelle, Antelope, Goats, Sheep, Buffaloes.


#3    Sakari

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:54 PM

View PostRolci, on 03 April 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

This is a simple question, it might have been asked before, but I just watched a documentary and it had deers in it and they were shown fighting for the females and I wondered: Which came first, the inbuilt instinct that this is the appropriate form of deciding which male gets to mate with the females, or the development of the large antlers. I mean, without antlers the deer won't have anything to fight with so the fighting ritual would never even begin to develop, and without the fights today's deers' large and spectacular antlers wouldn't have developed through natural selection as they would mean no advantage. So how did it all happen? Ideas?



All of your answers right here :  http://www.buckmasters.com/top-stories/view-all-articles.aspx?articleType=ArticleView&articleId=2378


Also, plural for Deer is " Deer "......No " s " on the end.


Some species of deer females grow antlers also.

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#4    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:49 AM

A deer can fight without antlers the same way I can fight without a weapon...

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#5    Rolci

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:04 PM

View PostSakari, on 03 April 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

All of your answers right here :  http://www.buckmasters.com/top-stories/view-all-articles.aspx?articleType=ArticleView&articleId=2378


I checked the page, I couldn't find any answers. Again, my question is, what made the antlers appear in the first place, and why didn't all those animals that don't have them not develop them if they're so advantageous? Or for that matter, how and why did narwhals develop their tusks??

Edited by Rolci, 04 April 2012 - 02:06 PM.

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#6    Abramelin

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:47 PM

View PostRolci, on 04 April 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I checked the page, I couldn't find any answers. Again, my question is, what made the antlers appear in the first place, and why didn't all those animals that don't have them not develop them if they're so advantageous? Or for that matter, how and why did narwhals develop their tusks??

Could be an evolution thing:

-1- Male deer competed by butting their heads
-2- Some males possessed small outgrowths on their heads that appeared to hurt the opponent to a point the opponent left the ring, and so these horned males could get the females.
-3- By being more successful in fighting off competitors, these horned males were also more succesful in procreating
-4- This way, after many generations, being horned became a typical characteristic of deer because the less succesful UNhorned deer slowly but surely died out
-5- Bigger horns (antlers), more succes >> horns (antlers) became larger according to the described process.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 April 2012 - 02:48 PM.


#7    Sakari

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostRolci, on 04 April 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I checked the page, I couldn't find any answers. Again, my question is, what made the antlers appear in the first place, and why didn't all those animals that don't have them not develop them if they're so advantageous? Or for that matter, how and why did narwhals develop their tusks??



Quote

Whitetail bucks’ antlers evolved as a weapon system and display  mechanism associated with social hierarchy, especially in terms of  reproduction.

I do not know what to tell you...Above is from that link.

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#8    Rolci

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:37 PM

Abramelin, if your theory were correct you would have fossil remains of pachycephalosaurs with antlers on their heads. In reality, they developed a thick skull.

http://fc01.devianta...by_WilkSaur.jpg

Sakari, yes, there is a word there, "evolved", which expresses an opinion, not an explanation for the theory, not even an attempt at explaining why or how. The sky question has already been figured out, no theory needed there. Didn't realize this would prove such a hard question, with the theory of evolution being so widely accepted as fact nowadays...

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#9    Sakari

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:45 PM

View PostRolci, on 04 April 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Abramelin, if your theory were correct you would have fossil remains of pachycephalosaurs with antlers on their heads. In reality, they developed a thick skull.

http://fc01.devianta...by_WilkSaur.jpg

Sakari, yes, there is a word there, "evolved", which expresses an opinion, not an explanation for the theory, not even an attempt at explaining why or how. The sky question has already been figured out, no theory needed there. Didn't realize this would prove such a hard question, with the theory of evolution being so widely accepted as fact nowadays...



I do not think you are going to find a answer you seek.......Who can come out and say they know why and how antlers formed on a deer, and for what reason........

But again, I do think it was answered for you....You just do not like the answer.

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#10    Mentalcase

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:31 AM

Stop butting heads. :P

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#11    Yes_Man

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:18 PM

View PostRolci, on 04 April 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Abramelin, if your theory were correct you would have fossil remains of pachycephalosaurs with antlers on their heads. In reality, they developed a thick skull.

http://fc01.devianta...by_WilkSaur.jpg

Sakari, yes, there is a word there, "evolved", which expresses an opinion, not an explanation for the theory, not even an attempt at explaining why or how. The sky question has already been figured out, no theory needed there. Didn't realize this would prove such a hard question, with the theory of evolution being so widely accepted as fact nowadays...
The same question goes for all horned animals extinct or still living today.


#12    Farmerboy

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

Look up secondary sexual characteristics and intrasexual selection. If you look at monogamous deer species compaired to polygynous species, they tend to have smaller antlers as they fight less and males are selected more by the females. In the larger antlered species males compete for access to many females. Fighting can be expensive and dangerous, and antlers are expensive to grow thus having big antlers may be useful as a signal, indicating the strength, fitness, fertility of the individual, therefore deterring fights with less capable males until an equally matched male is met where they are used as weapons. They may have developed initially due to selection by females as with Fishers "Sexy Sons Hypothesis" (Yes its a real thing  :lol: ). Females may have had a preference for antlers in males, whilst the male offspring of these antlered individuals may have had an advantage in fighting and therefore greater fitness over those without antlers. The preference for antlers may also have been heritable in the female offspring, which once widespread would have driven the selection for larger and larger antlers.


#13    George Ford

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:17 PM

Mating. For everything of a male species what you see is for courtship and battling other males. You know stags pee on their legs and ground then rub their antlers into the pee. The scent lets female deers know who has the most testosterone and  is strong.

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