19 replies to this topic

[Rolci]

Here is a modern mystery: Who owns the land? Nowadays you have to BUY land. As I live in England, I can say you buy land here from the council, or another person who bought it from the council. You can't just walk into the middle of a wood and stop in one place and say "this is my land." I mean you can, but no one would recognize you as the true owner. And if you built a house on that land they would come and knock it down. Because it's their land. My question is, who gave it to them? And who recognized it when they said it's theirs? Let's take America for an example. The land used to belong to the Indians. Then you have all these white men coming from Europe, settling down in places, cultivating some land, building a farm around and houses. Yeah that's fine, why not. But at one point that man says: "This is my land." Does that make is his land? If I wanted to play there could I not? If he said it's his land, I say, "Who gave it to you?" Obviously the answer is "I was here first". Fair enough, there's plenty more land around, I'll just go somewhere else. Not that I (or anyone) recognize that land as his, but since I don't want to fight, I leave and find myself another piece of land. But again, at one point, a group of people say: "All the land is ours." Who were they? Who gave them the land? And most importantly: who recognized it as theirs? Why is it that I can't settle today on an apparently free piece of land? How did it start? And if it's whoever was here first, Indians can say they were here first, and they're right! So why is not all the land theirs? Same goes for Australia. White man takes land from aboriginal, nowadays you have the debates, white man tries to LEASE land back to original owner. WTF? For story please read http://www.crikey.co...-little-secret/ I know one thing. Even IF the government truly and justly owned ALL land (which they don't, unless everyone says they do, but why would we? Hang on, we do! [??]), even then, if you need if to build a house on, you should get it free. A certain amount for everyone. Let's take me for exapmle. I got married to a Ukrainian woman. Every couple that get married get land. Free. And we did. 16m by 110m. Behind the last houses in a street. How it works is, her parents are using it to grow stuff for now. When we move there, if we build a house on it, electricity and other services will be extended for a few metres so we get access. This is how it should be. Council tax does not exist. Of cource there is street lighting and the bins get taken away. This is what tax is paid for. What I don't understand is where tax in the UK goes. So I have to pay stupid council tax here. Again, WTF? I could go on and on and on. But the question is, who owns the land, what gave them the right to say it's theirs, and who is it recognized by? Not me for sure.

[and then]

Initially I assume that the land belongs to who ever was strong enough to claim and defend the claim with arms.  I'm not sure when titles and deeds came into effect though I'm positive some here will be.  I know that in the Bible when God made Abraham heir to the land now being fought over in Israel, even He had an "official" ceremony to acknowledge the covenant He had made to make it legal in the eyes of man.
In the American west there was far more land than people so they gave settlers land free if they would move there, build and live on the land.  I think the plots were usually forty acres.  In more congested or desirable locations wars were fought over and over down the centuries.

[Goodnite]

In America there is no federal homesteading program and any public land the government does sell is sold only at fair market value.

Under the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 (FLMPA), the federal government took over ownership of public lands and abolished all remaining traces of the often-amended Homestead Act of 1862.

Specifically, the FLMPA declared that, "the public lands be retained in Federal ownership, unless as a result of the land use planning procedure provided in this Act, it is determined that disposal of a particular parcel will serve the national interest..."

Today, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) oversees the use of some 264 million acres of public land, representing about one-eighth of all the land in the United States. In passing the FLMPA, Congress assigned the main duty of the BLM as "the management of the public lands and their various resource values so that they are utilized in the combination that will best meet the present and future needs of the American people."
http://usgovinfo.abo...rnment-Land.htm

Edited by Goodnite, 06 April 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Essan]

Rolci, on 06 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

But the question is, who owns the land, what gave them the right to say it's theirs, and who is it recognized by? Not me for sure.

Imagine in 1,000 years, someone asking your distant descendant "who owns the land, who gave you the right to say it's yours" about that piece of land in Ukraine you now own?  

But in Britain what happened (in very simple terms) is that a thousand years ago the land got carved up amongst rich foreigners who had a big army at their beck and call and an alien concept of land ownership.  And over intervening years, some of us have by and by bought little bits and pieces of it back.

[Clyde the Glyde]

No one here in America owns land. They just rent it from the government. The easy way to figure that out is to stop paying your property taxes and see what happens to what you think is " your " land. "

[and then]

Clyde the Glyde, on 06 April 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

No one here in America owns land. They just rent it from the government. The easy way to figure that out is to stop paying your property taxes and see what happens to what you think is " your " land. "

EXCELLENT point, Clyde.  With the advent of land taxes all right to personal property were actually revoked.
Sometimes, in some States, the government will excuse the tax for an individual who's so old it barely matters anymore because they know it will be changing hands soon....

[Eldorado]

Rolci, on 06 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Here is a modern mystery: Who owns the land?

The guy with the biggest stick or the biggest committee of guys with little sticks.  Same as it's always been.

p.s.

Edited by Eldorado, 06 April 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[randym23]

no one ever has nor ever will own the land. this is the lie of capitalism.

[grendals_bane]

randym23, on 06 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

no one ever has nor ever will own the land. this is the lie of capitalism.

I 100% agree.

Claiming to own the land is just as ridiculous as claiming to own the sun or moon.

[Simbi Laveau]

and then, on 06 April 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

EXCELLENT point, Clyde.  With the advent of land taxes all right to personal property were actually revoked.
Sometimes, in some States, the government will excuse the tax for an individual who's so old it barely matters anymore because they know it will be changing hands soon....

Seriously ?
Not in ny.they give seniors a break on land taxes,but its not much.
A senior will pay say,1800,and a non senior will pay 2000.same size plots,same neighborhoods.

[Essan]

You only pay land tax if you own the land   

Of course, refusing to pay the tax may result in those imposing the tax using force to take the land off you.  Which is how it's been for over a thousand years.


Of course, by 'own' what we mean is the 'right amongst humans to live on, cultivate or extract minerals, etc'.  When there's nothing left of the human race except a tiny trace of plastic in ancient sedimentary rocks, the land will still be there.

[when.i.am.queen.]

Dragging back to my knowledge of property law, land rights as commonly understood in the UK today started in 1066, during the Normandy conquest of England. The monarch declared sovereignty (and thus ownership) over the area. The land was then vested to the conquering lords and barons, as a way of maintaining favour and being able to control a large population with relatively few people. (This effectively is how a feudalistic system comes into place. The land is 'owned' by the fief, and then creates a reciprocal relationship of goods/services/labor/military services in exchange for the use of the land.)
Later on, when parliament became more powerful, the land taxes would become very extravagant, and thus you would get tricky vesting of titles, the splitting of the legal and equitable estates, and many bankrupt freeholders looking sell their properties, all of which lead to the dispersement of land ownership to peoples other then the landed gentry (landed gentry - get it?)

As for simply settling down on a bit of land which apparently no body owns, take a look at some of the adverse possession laws. The logic behind them is very similar to what the OP was commenting on.

As for Australian native title, just a couple of comments. Just about all jurisdictions in Oz hold that native title is unalienable (ie that it cannot be sold, transferred, swapped, or disposed), except for the government. While I'm not saying that you should go out and read Mabo no 2, just a little bit of wikipediaing will give you the gist. Basically, native land rights in Australia were not extinguished with the assumption of colonial sovereignty, provided that they could show a continuous and exclusive occupation of the land. I'm not going to go into why this is/is not a good doctrine, but it is one which stands. 'Whiteman' does NOT try to lease it back to the original owners! You might also be interested to know that Australian Aboriginals didn't even have a concept of individual land ownership until European occupation, which is why you can have entire tribes having joint ownership over an area of land.

You might also be interested to know that in the UK, the only group which supports the redistribution of the land are the Greens...

[seller2006]

Land shouldn't be bought or sold, the earth is growing ... thank you corrupt man made systems which searches for profit everywhere. Every single person is entitled to this world. not just those who claim owner ship ( monarchies of today where nothing more than thieves of yesterday) ,etc ,etc.

[blarney]

Rolci, on 06 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Here is a modern mystery: Who owns the land? Nowadays you have to BUY land. As I live in England, I can say you buy land here from the council, or another person who bought it from the council. You can't just walk into the middle of a wood and stop in one place and say "this is my land." I mean you can, but no one would recognize you as the true owner. And if you built a house on that land they would come and knock it down. Because it's their land. My question is, who gave it to them? And who recognized it when they said it's theirs? Let's take America for an example. The land used to belong to the Indians. Then you have all these white men coming from Europe, settling down in places, cultivating some land, building a farm around and houses. Yeah that's fine, why not. But at one point that man says: "This is my land." Does that make is his land? If I wanted to play there could I not? If he said it's his land, I say, "Who gave it to you?" Obviously the answer is "I was here first". Fair enough, there's plenty more land around, I'll just go somewhere else. Not that I (or anyone) recognize that land as his, but since I don't want to fight, I leave and find myself another piece of land. But again, at one point, a group of people say: "All the land is ours." Who were they? Who gave them the land? And most importantly: who recognized it as theirs? Why is it that I can't settle today on an apparently free piece of land? How did it start? And if it's whoever was here first, Indians can say they were here first, and they're right! So why is not all the land theirs? Same goes for Australia. White man takes land from aboriginal, nowadays you have the debates, white man tries to LEASE land back to original owner. WTF? For story please read http://www.crikey.co...-little-secret/ I know one thing. Even IF the government truly and justly owned ALL land (which they don't, unless everyone says they do, but why would we? Hang on, we do! [??]), even then, if you need if to build a house on, you should get it free. A certain amount for everyone. Let's take me for exapmle. I got married to a Ukrainian woman. Every couple that get married get land. Free. And we did. 16m by 110m. Behind the last houses in a street. How it works is, her parents are using it to grow stuff for now. When we move there, if we build a house on it, electricity and other services will be extended for a few metres so we get access. This is how it should be. Council tax does not exist. Of cource there is street lighting and the bins get taken away. This is what tax is paid for. What I don't understand is where tax in the UK goes. So I have to pay stupid council tax here. Again, WTF? I could go on and on and on. But the question is, who owns the land, what gave them the right to say it's theirs, and who is it recognized by? Not me for sure.

As has been put in a few diff ways here, the old axiom of "All political power comes at the end of a gun". Societal "ownership" fall under this as all other powers do as well. And for those anti capitalist friends, this is quote from chairman Mao in 1935 and was followed by "The communist party must control all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.  Ultimately whoever is strongest makes the rules. So if you are strong enough to control a piece of land when contested......its yours.

[lightly]

and then, on 06 April 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

EXCELLENT point, Clyde.  With the advent of land taxes all right to personal property were actually revoked.
Sometimes, in some States, the government will excuse the tax for an individual who's so old it barely matters anymore because they know it will be changing hands soon....

What a cheery thought,  but,  that's it!  that's what i'll tell them .. or maybe i'll just forget to pay !