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The Text Josephus Never Wrote


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#1    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:35 PM

THE TEXT JOSEPHUS NEVER WROTE


"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as to receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first, did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold this and thousand other wonderful things concerned him; and the tribes of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Antiquities of the Jews, p.576, #3)

Now, with the above in mind, I am bringing to your attention the reasons why Josephus could have never written this text above:

1 - Josephus was the kind of Historian who could bore any reader with his paronoia with details. Taken Herod, for instance, Josephus would go down to the dot of the letter about even family intrigues and things really of no concern. Do you think that he would miss such a highly important event in the life of Herod as his order to slaughter all the children from two years of age and under with the intent to catch the "king of the Jews" who had just been born? Obviously not. Since Josephus could not have missed that event in the life of Herod, it either did not happen or Josephus never wrote this text. But then again, Luke missed it too. Therefore, it never happened.

2 - "...if it be lawful to call him a man." If not a man, what, a god? Josephus was a Jewish man and he knew that there is no such a thing in Judaism as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

3 - "...he drew over to him many of the Gentiles." I wonder where Josephus got that from because, even the NT cannot confirm what he said if he ever wrote that text. Why? Because rather the opposite was true. Jesus rather closed the doors to the Gentiles by actually forbidding his disciples to take his gospel to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5)

4 - "He was [the] Christ." Josephus knew Greek fluently. As a Jew who never converted to Christianity, he would never state that Jesus was the Messiah.

5 - "At the suggestion of the Jews, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross." Knowing Pilate as Josephus did, he was well aware that Pilate would never condemn someone to the cross at the suggestion of another, especially Jews of all people. Besides, Jesus was not the only one. Josephus reports a number within the thousands.  

6 - "...for he appeared to the disciples alive the third day." Josephus could have never stated this item of Paul's
gospel without at least quoting, "according to his disciples, or according to Paul, as this himself confessed that Jesus resurrected according to his gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8) Any one can see that the forgery was done with the intent to have Josephus preach the resurrection of Jesus. A Jew could never do such a thing.

7 - "...as the divine prophets foretold this and thousand other wonderful things about Jesus." Where, for heaven's
sake is it written? Could it be that, after having written such a detailed history of the Jews, Josephus had forgotten all about the Tanach? Highly improbable. Therefore, Josephus did not write the text above about Jesus. Evidences can't be more shouting that it was forged into Josephus' writings by the Church in the 4th Century.

Ben


#2    and then

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:46 PM

Hi Ben and welcome to UM.  So are you just saying that the text is written by someone other than Josephus or that the statements in the text are false?

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#3    Lion6969

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:49 PM

Your analysis seems very plausible....however if anyone was accepting Jesus it's was his fellow Jews, as he came to the lost sheep of the house.

:)


#4    Ben Masada

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:35 PM

View Postand then, on 06 April 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Hi Ben and welcome to UM.  So are you just saying that the text is written by someone other than Josephus or that the statements in the text are false?

Both, not only was the text written by someone else other than Josephus, but also that the statements in the text are false for the reasons I mentioned following the text in the thread. The point is that, in the 4th Century ACE, there was a time when pious forgery was welcome by the Church whose leaders desperately needed to document the historical Jesus, and there was no other literature besides the NT to witness the fact. Since Josephus' works enjoyed more creditation than the NT, his writings had become the best choice to be interpolated with pious forgeries.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 07 April 2012 - 05:36 PM.


#5    Ben Masada

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:50 PM

View PostLion6969, on 06 April 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Your analysis seems very plausible....however if anyone was accepting Jesus it's was his fellow Jews, as he came to the lost sheep of the house.

:)

You are right. Indeed, many Jews accepted Jesus, hence he had twelve apostles and 70 disciples, let alone crowds of jews who would listen to him. (Mat. 7:28) But they all did not accept Jesus in the Hellenistic fashion that Paul and his disciples did. While to the real Jews Jesus was but a loyal Jew who had come to confirm the Law down to the letter, according to Matthew 5:19, to the disciples of Paul, Jesus was akin to a Greek demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:20) Besides, that Jesus was the Messiah and had resurrected, Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy, that it was all according to his gospel. (2 Tim. 2:8) It means that Paul was the one who had fabricated that idea about Jesus.
Ben


#6    and then

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:14 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 07 April 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

You are right. Indeed, many Jews accepted Jesus, hence he had twelve apostles and 70 disciples, let alone crowds of jews who would listen to him. (Mat. 7:28) But they all did not accept Jesus in the Hellenistic fashion that Paul and his disciples did. While to the real Jews Jesus was but a loyal Jew who had come to confirm the Law down to the letter, according to Matthew 5:19, to the disciples of Paul, Jesus was akin to a Greek demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:20) Besides, that Jesus was the Messiah and had resurrected, Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy, that it was all according to his gospel. (2 Tim. 2:8) It means that Paul was the one who had fabricated that idea about Jesus.
Ben
Fabricated?
2 Timothy 2:8   (Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel)
I don't understand.  Timothy is simply confirming that Jesus was a Jew who rose from the dead.  How is that a fabrication by Paul?

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#7    Arbitran

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

THE TEXT JOSEPHUS NEVER WROTE


"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as to receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first, did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold this and thousand other wonderful things concerned him; and the tribes of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Antiquities of the Jews, p.576, #3)

Now, with the above in mind, I am bringing to your attention the reasons why Josephus could have never written this text above:

1 - Josephus was the kind of Historian who could bore any reader with his paronoia with details. Taken Herod, for instance, Josephus would go down to the dot of the letter about even family intrigues and things really of no concern. Do you think that he would miss such a highly important event in the life of Herod as his order to slaughter all the children from two years of age and under with the intent to catch the "king of the Jews" who had just been born? Obviously not. Since Josephus could not have missed that event in the life of Herod, it either did not happen or Josephus never wrote this text. But then again, Luke missed it too. Therefore, it never happened.

2 - "...if it be lawful to call him a man." If not a man, what, a god? Josephus was a Jewish man and he knew that there is no such a thing in Judaism as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

3 - "...he drew over to him many of the Gentiles." I wonder where Josephus got that from because, even the NT cannot confirm what he said if he ever wrote that text. Why? Because rather the opposite was true. Jesus rather closed the doors to the Gentiles by actually forbidding his disciples to take his gospel to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5)

4 - "He was [the] Christ." Josephus knew Greek fluently. As a Jew who never converted to Christianity, he would never state that Jesus was the Messiah.

5 - "At the suggestion of the Jews, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross." Knowing Pilate as Josephus did, he was well aware that Pilate would never condemn someone to the cross at the suggestion of another, especially Jews of all people. Besides, Jesus was not the only one. Josephus reports a number within the thousands.  

6 - "...for he appeared to the disciples alive the third day." Josephus could have never stated this item of Paul's
gospel without at least quoting, "according to his disciples, or according to Paul, as this himself confessed that Jesus resurrected according to his gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8) Any one can see that the forgery was done with the intent to have Josephus preach the resurrection of Jesus. A Jew could never do such a thing.

7 - "...as the divine prophets foretold this and thousand other wonderful things about Jesus." Where, for heaven's
sake is it written? Could it be that, after having written such a detailed history of the Jews, Josephus had forgotten all about the Tanach? Highly improbable. Therefore, Josephus did not write the text above about Jesus. Evidences can't be more shouting that it was forged into Josephus' writings by the Church in the 4th Century.

Ben

A wonderfully-complete analysis. Excellent work, sir.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#8    Paranoid Android

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:30 PM

This is a well-known forgery, Josephus never wrote this text as it stands in its present form.  However, argument exists as to whether it is a complete forgery, or if it might have existed in the text but was added to by a Christian scribe.  I'll post what several scholars think the text might have originally said:

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as to receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was perhaps [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first, did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold this and thousand other wonderful things concerned him; and the tribes of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Antiquities of the Jews, p.576, #3)

As you can see, two sections have been removed, and the word "perhaps" (put in bold) added.  Though the entire sentence "He was perhaps the Christ" could be entirely removed - the sentence is considered possible because of one Arabic version of Josephus' work which actually includes the word "perhaps".  

In any case, regardless of whether this was entirely forged, or if it were edited from Josephus' original, virtually all scholars agree that the text in its present form is wrong.  Nevertheless, Josephus writew about Jesus in another section of his work, and scholars all agree that in this section of text there is no hint of Christian tampering, and therefore most believe this to be the original words of Josephus.  That text reads:

But this younger Ananus, who as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent... He assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus the so-called Messiah-Christ, whose name was James, and some others.  When he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them over to be stoned to death
~ (Jewish Antiquities 20.200)


The inclusion of the phrase "so-called Messiah-Christ" lends weight to the earlier suggestion that Jesus was "perhaps" the Christ.  

Just a few thoughts for consideration :tu:

~ PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 April 2012 - 06:33 PM.

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#9    Arbitran

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:30 PM

View Postand then, on 07 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Fabricated?
2 Timothy 2:8   (Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel)
I don't understand.  Timothy is simply confirming that Jesus was a Jew who rose from the dead.  How is that a fabrication by Paul?

Oh yes, because a man who lived a century after Jesus, mentioning that he believed Jesus to have resurrected... That's confirmation. Because that's just such solid proof of Jesus' divinity, you see. How could anyone fail to see that?
In case anyone can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#10    Lion6969

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:51 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 07 April 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

You are right. Indeed, many Jews accepted Jesus, hence he had twelve apostles and 70 disciples, let alone crowds of jews who would listen to him. (Mat. 7:28) But they all did not accept Jesus in the Hellenistic fashion that Paul and his disciples did. While to the real Jews Jesus was but a loyal Jew who had come to confirm the Law down to the letter, according to Matthew 5:19, to the disciples of Paul, Jesus was akin to a Greek demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:20) Besides, that Jesus was the Messiah and had resurrected, Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy, that it was all according to his gospel. (2 Tim. 2:8) It means that Paul was the one who had fabricated that idea about Jesus.
Ben

I agree. Today's Christianity is the doctrine of Paul. If you wrote all the words that Paul said in black ink and the words Jesus said, then the bible would be 98% in black ink. What does that tell you? Who are Christians really following?


#11    Paranoid Android

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:31 PM

View PostLion6969, on 08 April 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

I agree. Today's Christianity is the doctrine of Paul. If you wrote all the words that Paul said in black ink and the words Jesus said, then the bible would be 98% in black ink. What does that tell you? Who are Christians really following?
From where I sit, the doctrine of Paul is the same doctrine Jesus taught.  Christians are following Christ.  Paul wrote much of the New Testament, but that doesn't mean we are following Paul.  As Paul himself says,

What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ."  Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
~ 1 Corinthians 1:12-13


Paul's teachings elaborate and elucidate Christ's teachings.  They do not supplant them, nor do they mean that to listen to Paul means to ignore Jesus.  That would be my firm opinion on the matter :yes:

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#12    blind pew

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

THE TEXT JOSEPHUS NEVER WROTE


"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as to receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first, did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold this and thousand other wonderful things concerned him; and the tribes of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Antiquities of the Jews, p.576, #3)

Now, with the above in mind, I am bringing to your attention the reasons why Josephus could have never written this text above:

1 - Josephus was the kind of Historian who could bore any reader with his paronoia with details. Taken Herod, for instance, Josephus would go down to the dot of the letter about even family intrigues and things really of no concern. Do you think that he would miss such a highly important event in the life of Herod as his order to slaughter all the children from two years of age and under with the intent to catch the "king of the Jews" who had just been born? Obviously not. Since Josephus could not have missed that event in the life of Herod, it either did not happen or Josephus never wrote this text. But then again, Luke missed it too. Therefore, it never happened.

2 - "...if it be lawful to call him a man." If not a man, what, a god? Josephus was a Jewish man and he knew that there is no such a thing in Judaism as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

3 - "...he drew over to him many of the Gentiles." I wonder where Josephus got that from because, even the NT cannot confirm what he said if he ever wrote that text. Why? Because rather the opposite was true. Jesus rather closed the doors to the Gentiles by actually forbidding his disciples to take his gospel to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5)

4 - "He was [the] Christ." Josephus knew Greek fluently. As a Jew who never converted to Christianity, he would never state that Jesus was the Messiah.

5 - "At the suggestion of the Jews, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross." Knowing Pilate as Josephus did, he was well aware that Pilate would never condemn someone to the cross at the suggestion of another, especially Jews of all people. Besides, Jesus was not the only one. Josephus reports a number within the thousands.  

6 - "...for he appeared to the disciples alive the third day." Josephus could have never stated this item of Paul's
gospel without at least quoting, "according to his disciples, or according to Paul, as this himself confessed that Jesus resurrected according to his gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8) Any one can see that the forgery was done with the intent to have Josephus preach the resurrection of Jesus. A Jew could never do such a thing.

7 - "...as the divine prophets foretold this and thousand other wonderful things about Jesus." Where, for heaven's
sake is it written? Could it be that, after having written such a detailed history of the Jews, Josephus had forgotten all about the Tanach? Highly improbable. Therefore, Josephus did not write the text above about Jesus. Evidences can't be more shouting that it was forged into Josephus' writings by the Church in the 4th Century.

Ben
Our civilization needs to grow up and stop believing in non existent deities and start relying on each other


#13    Jor-el

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 07 April 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

You are right. Indeed, many Jews accepted Jesus, hence he had twelve apostles and 70 disciples, let alone crowds of jews who would listen to him. (Mat. 7:28) But they all did not accept Jesus in the Hellenistic fashion that Paul and his disciples did. While to the real Jews Jesus was but a loyal Jew who had come to confirm the Law down to the letter, according to Matthew 5:19, to the disciples of Paul, Jesus was akin to a Greek demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:20) Besides, that Jesus was the Messiah and had resurrected, Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy, that it was all according to his gospel. (2 Tim. 2:8) It means that Paul was the one who had fabricated that idea about Jesus.
Ben

Well I would like to ask you, in a straightforward fashion, who do you think then Jesus really was?

We have a number of works that comprise the New testament, even leaving out all the works written by Paul, we are still left with the 4 Gospels themselves, which are as close to eyewitness accounts as we will ever have. They all point to a person who matches for all intents and purposes, the Messiah awaited by the Hebrews from the earliest of times. Even he attests to his own divine status in them in more than one occasion, by actions, attitudes and words.

So I'm wondering why you would say that Paul got it wrong, when others are saying axactly the same thing he was?

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#14    thedutchiedutch

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:46 PM

View Postblind pew, on 08 April 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Our civilization needs to grow up and stop believing in non existent deities and start relying on each other

Well said and i support that  :yes:

So do I have time for a last smoke and a pancake or what?

#15    blind pew

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:13 AM

View Postthedutchiedutch, on 08 April 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Well said and i support that  :yes:

thank you





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