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The Text Josephus Never Wrote


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#376    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:23 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 28 July 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Whether I am a Christian or not, is up for grabs.

The Central Theorem of Christianity is that Jesus rose from the dead, thereby proving that he was a god and could do anything.  Presumably, he could then grant eternal life to those he deemed worthy.  As I do not believe that, I guess I am not a Christian.

From what I have seen of late in the US, the collapse of Christianity would be a cause for celebration, a chance for reason to replace supersticion.

Bar Kochba was the one who reconvened it.  He was in Israel, too.  As I understand the situation, this lasted only two or three years, during which time Rome was gathering something like twelve legions from across the Empire to deal a final blow to their rebellious province.

Unless, of course, that is the story of Carabbas that Mark attributes to Jesus.  It is easy to see how this could happen and the verses in Mark appear to be added later, an afterthought.

I am in no position to judge Akiva ben Jospeh's motivations.  He has been dead far too long and the records that survive do not mention them.  Your statement is an assumption and is not backed up by anything.  You may be right, but then again, you may be wrong.  I don't believe this issue can be resolved.
Doug

Now, I am persuaded that you are not a Christian. Sorry for having misjudged your faith. A Christian would never conclude that Jesus was a god on the belief that he had resurrected. Why? Because Lazarus was resurrected by Jesus himself and that was no proof that Lazarus was a god. (Luke 11:14,43) Then, when Jesus died on the cross, many bodies of saints who had fallen asleep were raised, according to Mat. 27:53 and this is no proof that they were gods. If this is the central theorem of Christianity, any one can see how wrong the whole system is.

IMHO, I don't find obvious that Bar Kochba had the power to reinstitute the Sanhedrin. He was a rustic soldier, albeit the commander-in-arms. Only members of the Sanhedrin could do that job with the approval of Rome, that is. And my statement about Akiva is indeed an assumption but based on the caliber of the man Akiva was. He simply used his learning and authority to implement the war against Rome, by acclaiming Bar Kochba the Messiah.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 30 July 2012 - 05:27 PM.


#377    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:43 PM

View Postdside, on 28 July 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

You know that is not what the scripture verses stated.

The Maccabees maintained temporary independence due to the factions in Egypt and Syria caused by the death of Alexander the Great. They exploited the Egyptian and Syrian divisions when they drew upon an "federation" with Rome and they even intermarried into foreign Royal families of the neighboring powers to consolidate advantageous alliances. Remember how Herod the Great came into power and what led to Judea degenerating from a client kingdom to Roman province? Uh-huh. So, ultimately, for all of the Maccabees political dancing, that is the very thing that  ultimately destroyed them and ended their short reign.

If you really believe that this is not what the Scripture verses state, read the book of Joshua and tell me that the Spirit of the Lord was not with him. Read the books of Kings and tell me if the Spirit of the Lord was not with David. Read the two volumes of Maccabees and tell me again that the Hasmonian dynasty ended so short as you claim. And last but not least, read a little about what we have done since 1948 to crush nations and armies many times more numerous and stronger in weaponry than ours. I think your underestimation of what we can do is too racially motivated.

Ben


#378    Doug1o29

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:14 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 30 July 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Because Lazarus was resurrected by Jesus himself and that was no proof that Lazarus was a god. (Luke 11:14,43) Then, when Jesus died on the cross, many bodies of saints who had fallen asleep were raised, according to Mat. 27:53 and this is no proof that they were gods. If this is the central theorem of Christianity, any one can see how wrong the whole system is.
I didn't say they got it right, but in both cases it was presumably God (or Jesus) who was doing the resurrecting, not those who were raised.  While we're at it, neither Josephus nor any other contemporaneous writer mentions the resurrection of the saints mentioned by Matthew.  This sounds like one of those urban legends.

Quote

IMHO, I don't find obvious that Bar Kochba had the power to reinstitute the Sanhedrin. He was a rustic soldier, albeit the commander-in-arms. Only members of the Sanhedrin could do that job with the approval of Rome, that is. And my statement about Akiva is indeed an assumption but based on the caliber of the man Akiva was. He simply used his learning and authority to implement the war against Rome, by acclaiming Bar Kochba the Messiah.
I don't think the Jews were waiting for Rome's approval.  They were in rebellion, so Rome's say didn't count.
Doug

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
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#379    SCFan

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:43 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 30 July 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

If you really believe that this is not what the Scripture verses state, read the book of Joshua and tell me that the Spirit of the Lord was not with him. Read the books of Kings and tell me if the Spirit of the Lord was not with David. Read the two volumes of Maccabees and tell me again that the Hasmonian dynasty ended so short as you claim. And last but not least, read a little about what we have done since 1948 to crush nations and armies many times more numerous and stronger in weaponry than ours. I think your underestimation of what we can do is too racially motivated.

Ben

But Joshua failed to overthrow the Canaanites and other tribes, for about 200 years, the Israelites tribal states and Philistines vied for supremecy of Canaan. The extended kingdom of King David lasted but a generation... 73 years ending upon the death of his son Solomon.

What you failed to see in my post is the Hasmonean kingdom lasted for about a generation ... 77 years between 140 BCE to 63 BCE. Its downfall was its methods of survival that it not only built a federation with the Romans but that the Hasmoneans also married into the Idumeans (Edomites), Herod the Great (the Edomite) curried greater favor with the Romans and they named him king of Judea instead of a Hasmonean. And it was Herod that destroyed the Hasmonean royal lineage and the Romans assisted him.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#380    Artaxerxes

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:02 AM

I'm thinking Jesus was simply a little Jewish Rabbi that had a very deep and profound near death experience and that the New Testament in it's essence is basically a highly embellished, added onto, and out of sequence near death experience story and Christianity at it's heart is a near death experience religion.  

They were in a hurry to get the body down from the cross because they were afraid of angering the Jews because they didn't like bodies left up on the cross over the Sabbath.  They were afraid the Jews would riot so they wanted to hurry up and get the body down.  When that Roman soldier stuck his spear in the side of Jesus he pierced the pericardium which is the sac surrounding the heart and it relieved the pressure which was keeping Jesus heart from beating and then when they cut the body down from the cross, because they were in a hurry, they let the body flop on the ground and the resulting "whomp" restarted the heart and it was beating very slowly so jesus was in a coma.  

They turned the body over to the women and they probably cleaned it and bound the wounds and then wrapped it in linen and then they laid it in that cool dark tomb (in the spring time in Jerusalem) and it laid there for three days.  

After three days in a coma Jesus woke up and at some point in his ordeal, probably while he was up on the cross, he had a very deep and profound near death experience.  So he came back and started preaching about what the Kingdom of God was like and he prayed in the garden that his followers would experience the oneness and connectedness with God that he had experienced.  

The church is supposed to be a respite from the world, or a little piece of heaven here on Earth.   That was Jesus original intenetion, that his followers would know the love and light and connectedness with each other that he had experienced while on the other side.


#381    Doug1o29

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:55 PM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 31 July 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

I'm thinking Jesus was simply a little Jewish Rabbi that had a very deep and profound near death experience and that the New Testament in it's essence is basically a highly embellished, added onto, and out of sequence near death experience story and Christianity at it's heart is a near death experience religion.  
One can take the basics from the gospels and put them together to make lots of different stories.  The traditional interpretation is a long way from being the only one.

The alternate version I like best is that Joseph of Arimethea and some others conspired to make Jesus into the Messiah.  What they planned to do was give him some drugs ("wine&myrrh"; "vinegar&bile") to knock him out, then take him down from the cross and revive him -Voila!  He rises from the dead!  People would now follow him in the overthrow of Rome.  They didn't plan on that Roman soldier with the lance; somebody forgot to bribe him.  When Jesus passed out, they tried to proceed with the original plan, but the wound was too severe.  He revived for a few days, only to die of sepsis in the massive wound.

One can do a lot with the basics.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
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#382    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 05:31 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 30 July 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

I didn't say they got it right, but in both cases it was presumably God (or Jesus) who was doing the resurrecting, not those who were raised.  While we're at it, neither Josephus nor any other contemporaneous writer mentions the resurrection of the saints mentioned by Matthew.  This sounds like one of those urban legends.

I don't think the Jews were waiting for Rome's approval.  They were in rebellion, so Rome's say didn't count.
Doug

Ah! Now, a god is the one who performs the resurrection in another and no longer the one who resurrected himself, according to your previous opinion. I'll take that one too. If Elijah resurrected the son of the widow of Zarephath, was he a god? (I Kings 17:22) I don't think so. Then, we have Paul resurrecting the lad Eutychus who had fallen from the third floor to the ground and died. Was Paul a god? (Acts 20:9,10) I don't think so either. Oh, BTW, who resurrected Jesus, himself or Adonai? If God is rather the One Who does the resurrection, in that case, Jesus was not the one. Well, is your opinion still the same?

I am aware that Josephus does not mention what is written in Matthew. But if this to you, sounds like urban legends, it does sound hellenistic fabrications. IOW, it didn't happen.

True about Bar Kochba who had zero respect for the Romans, but he was not of the kind to reinstate the Sanhedrin. He behaved like an extraordinary man by being himself the Law of the land. Then, there is nothing either way in Josephus.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 03 August 2012 - 05:34 PM.


#383    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

View Postdside, on 31 July 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

But Joshua failed to overthrow the Canaanites and other tribes, for about 200 years, the Israelites tribal states and Philistines vied for supremecy of Canaan. The extended kingdom of King David lasted but a generation... 73 years ending upon the death of his son Solomon.

What you failed to see in my post is the Hasmonean kingdom lasted for about a generation ... 77 years between 140 BCE to 63 BCE. Its downfall was its methods of survival that it not only built a federation with the Romans but that the Hasmoneans also married into the Idumeans (Edomites), Herod the Great (the Edomite) curried greater favor with the Romans and they named him king of Judea instead of a Hasmonean. And it was Herod that destroyed the Hasmonean royal lineage and the Romans assisted him.

How many generations did you expect the kingdom of David to last,  more than one? The man was mortal for heavens' sake. But if you mean the kingdom he raised in Judah, it lasted not only throughout his hegemony but also of his son Solomon and throughout the next kings afterwards. It had a pause of 70 years with the destruction of the first Temple by the Babylonians, it continued afterwards, another pause of almost 2000 years with the destruction of the second Temple by the Romans, and now, back since 1948 albeit with a slight differerece in the form of Government.

Ben


#384    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 06:18 PM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 31 July 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

  

They were in a hurry to get the body down from the cross because they were afraid of angering the Jews because they didn't like bodies left up on the cross over the Sabbath.  They were afraid the Jews would riot so they wanted to hurry up and get the body down.  When that Roman soldier stuck his spear in the side of Jesus he pierced the pericardium which is the sac surrounding the heart and it relieved the pressure which was keeping Jesus heart from beating and then when they cut the body down from the cross, because they were in a hurry, they let the body flop on the ground and the resulting "whomp" restarted the heart and it was beating very slowly so jesus was in a coma.  

Artaxexes, I find hard to believe that Jesus was peirced on his side for some obvious reasons.

Here are three of the reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross, besides the fact that it was not a Roman policy to pierce the side of a crucified to make sure that he was dead and the sheer number of crucifieds who would take an enormous time to pierce all of them. Josephus mentions of thousands of them only in the First Century.

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays, so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing. The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross, and the Centurion could report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God. This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by either the writer of the Gospel or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 03 August 2012 - 06:19 PM.


#385    SCFan

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 03 August 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

How many generations did you expect the kingdom of David to last,  more than one? The man was mortal for heavens' sake. But if you mean the kingdom he raised in Judah, it lasted not only throughout his hegemony but also of his son Solomon and throughout the next kings afterwards. It had a pause of 70 years with the destruction of the first Temple by the Babylonians, it continued afterwards, another pause of almost 2000 years with the destruction of the second Temple by the Romans, and now, back since 1948 albeit with a slight differerece in the form of Government.

Ben

No, Israel only had two generations of basically self-rule before the Extended Kingdoms of King David and King Solomon and the Maccabees.

The rest of the time was Palestine was ruled directly by other powers, as Israel served as a client kingdom, or a vassal kingdom.

The Extended Kingdom of King David and King Solomon was about the size of modern Israel. 73 years total.

The Kingdom of Judea before the Babylonian captivity was the about the size of today's West Bank. 337 years.

The Kingdom of the Maccabees was smaller than the size of today's West Bank. 77 years total.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#386    Ben Masada

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:59 PM

View Postdside, on 03 August 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

No, Israel only had two generations of basically self-rule before the Extended Kingdoms of King David and King Solomon and the Maccabees.

The rest of the time was Palestine was ruled directly by other powers, as Israel served as a client kingdom, or a vassal kingdom.

The Extended Kingdom of King David and King Solomon was about the size of modern Israel. 73 years total.

The Kingdom of Judea before the Babylonian captivity was the about the size of today's West Bank. 337 years.

The Kingdom of the Maccabees was smaller than the size of today's West Bank. 77 years total.

Be as you wish. It doesn't take anywhere to discuss an issue as in a match of ping-pong. Wasting of our time.

Ben


#387    SCFan

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 10 August 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Be as you wish. It doesn't take anywhere to discuss an issue as in a match of ping-pong. Wasting of our time.

Ben

Well, I am speaking about the borders of the Israel or rather its lack of historical definition during Biblical times and how that can relate to modern Israel.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#388    Ben Masada

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:22 PM

View Postdside, on 10 August 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Well, I am speaking about the borders of the Israel or rather its lack of historical definition during Biblical times and how that can relate to modern Israel.

According to the Torah, the borders of Israel are well defined, but according to modern world politics, we still have a lot to work to recover what has been assigned to us as the Promised Land. But what we have achieved so far, should never be discarded. Something like the Russian policy to hang on their possessions: Never to quit on them no matter what. America too with the incursions and appropriation of land from the American natives.

Ben


#389    SCFan

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:07 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 10 August 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

According to the Torah, the borders of Israel are well defined, but according to modern world politics, we still have a lot to work to recover what has been assigned to us as the Promised Land. But what we have achieved so far, should never be discarded. Something like the Russian policy to hang on their possessions: Never to quit on them no matter what. America too with the incursions and appropriation of land from the American natives.

Ben

Yet, the nation of Israel only reigned once in the land of Palestine under King David and King Solomon, afterwards the kingdom decreased exponentially which led to a confederation of nations and vassal statehood before ceasing altogether to exist save but for a short period during the Hasmonean rule until 1948 CE.

But the Israelites were required to meet God's standards of loyalty and justice, otherwise, the land is not their's and that God would spew them out of that land and scatter them amongst the nations, something that had happened twice before in 586 BCE by the Babylonians and 135 CE by the Romans (Hadrian). Ever read the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 28.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#390    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:59 PM

View Postdside, on 11 August 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

Yet, the nation of Israel only reigned once in the land of Palestine under King David and King Solomon, afterwards the kingdom decreased exponentially which led to a confederation of nations and vassal statehood before ceasing altogether to exist save but for a short period during the Hasmonean rule until 1948 CE.

But the Israelites were required to meet God's standards of loyalty and justice, otherwise, the land is not their's and that God would spew them out of that land and scatter them amongst the nations, something that had happened twice before in 586 BCE by the Babylonians and 135 CE by the Romans (Hadrian). Ever read the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 28.

You missed the third one, in 721 BCE when Israel was taken captive to Assyria by Senacherib. That one was permanent, according to Psalm 78:67-69. But the other two exiles of the Jewish People, the one in 586 BCE to Babylon and the one in 135 ACE by the Romans were temporary. After 70 years, the Jewish People was back from Babylon and in 1948 ACE we were back from the four corners of the earth.

Yes, I have read Deuteronomy 28 even more than several times. I agree that we must meet God's standards to remain in this Land. That's what Jeremiah meant in 31:35-37. As long as Israel remains as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will work properly. In fact, as long as we meet those standards, no one can move us out of here. Now, who is going to judge us that we are not meeting God's standards or not? If any judgment is done, it must be made to Israel as a people, according to Jeremiah and not according to the misbehavior of an individual here or there.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 August 2012 - 08:01 PM.





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