640 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

BUT REALLY, WHY WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?


There is no secret about it; and the NT can't be more clear. On the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a white donkey, some among the crowd of his followers would proclaim him king of the Jews. (John 12:13) And Jerusalem of all cities, especially for being The abode of Pilate, a man whose day was not made till he crucified a Jew!

Josephus reports in his "War of the Jews" that Pilate took so much pleasure from crucifying Jews that he exceeded into thousands of them. In the case of Jesus, he nailed the reason on the top of his cross: For being proclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, which was the Land of Israel at the time.

On the year 312 ACE, Christianity was being considered for the choice to become the official religion of the Empire by Emperor Constantine, and the charge that Rome had crucified Jesus was a liability bordering on disqualifying the Church for that promotion. Therefore, some pious forgery was in order. For instance, that Pilate had been forced by the Jewish authorities to crucify Jesus, hence the washing of Pilate's hands, by which, guilt would be transferred from Rome unto the Jews. For another, they even set Peter charging the Jews with having crucified Jesus in a speech written by Luke but never delivered in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:14,36) Though it made no sense, as they were well aware, it didn't matter; the Church needed that promotion, and any thing else would be justified. Anyways, the Jews needed to pay for rejecting the new religion.

Ben

[and then]

Ben Masada, on 07 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

BUT REALLY, WHY WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?


There is no secret about it; and the NT can't be more clear. On the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a white donkey, some among the crowd of his followers would proclaim him king of the Jews. (John 12:13) And Jerusalem of all cities, especially for being The abode of Pilate, a man whose day was not made till he crucified a Jew!

Josephus reports in his "War of the Jews" that Pilate took so much pleasure from crucifying Jews that he exceeded into thousands of them. In the case of Jesus, he nailed the reason on the top of his cross: For being proclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, which was the Land of Israel at the time.

On the year 312 ACE, Christianity was being considered for the choice to become the official religion of the Empire by Emperor Constantine, and the charge that Rome had crucified Jesus was a liability bordering on disqualifying the Church for that promotion. Therefore, some pious forgery was in order. For instance, that Pilate had been forced by the Jewish authorities to crucify Jesus, hence the washing of Pilate's hands, by which, guilt would be transferred from Rome unto the Jews. For another, they even set Peter charging the Jews with having crucified Jesus in a speech written by Luke but never delivered in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:14,36) Though it made no sense, as they were well aware, it didn't matter; the Church needed that promotion, and any thing else would be justified. Anyways, the Jews needed to pay for rejecting the new religion.

Ben

As believers celebrate his resurrection I can say that my Lord gave Himself to be killed.  No one took His life.  The politics of his execution have been used down the centuries to spread hate and violence, which is what the deceiver does with all good acts if he can.
The story on this Easter is not how He died but that HE IS RISEN!

[MysteryX]

Ben Masada, on 07 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

BUT REALLY, WHY WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?

There is no secret about it; and the NT can't be more clear. On the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a white donkey, some among the crowd of his followers would proclaim him king of the Jews. (John 12:13) And Jerusalem of all cities, especially for being The abode of Pilate, a man whose day was not made till he crucified a Jew!

Josephus reports in his "War of the Jews" that Pilate took so much pleasure from crucifying Jews that he exceeded into thousands of them. In the case of Jesus, he nailed the reason on the top of his cross: For being proclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, which was the Land of Israel at the time.

On the year 312 ACE, Christianity was being considered for the choice to become the official religion of the Empire by Emperor Constantine, and the charge that Rome had crucified Jesus was a liability bordering on disqualifying the Church for that promotion. Therefore, some pious forgery was in order. For instance, that Pilate had been forced by the Jewish authorities to crucify Jesus, hence the washing of Pilate's hands, by which, guilt would be transferred from Rome unto the Jews. For another, they even set Peter charging the Jews with having crucified Jesus in a speech written by Luke but never delivered in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:14,36) Though it made no sense, as they were well aware, it didn't matter; the Church needed that promotion, and any thing else would be justified. Anyways, the Jews needed to pay for rejecting the new religion.

Ben

To fulfill PSALMS 22 of the Jewish Tanakh of the Masoretic Text. Note: this was written by King David 970 years before Jesus
was hung on a cross and is in every Jewish Bible to this day.

Psalms 22 shown below was written by King David almost 1,000 years before the birth of Jesus.

If you read all of Psalms 22 you see were it also states, “Stand in awe of him all you sons of Israel, sons of  Jacob. Stand in Awe of who? The one who was killed in Psalms 22 as written by King David.  


Psalms: Chapter 22


1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but you hear me not; and in the night season, I am not silent.
3 But you art holy, O thou that inhabits the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and you did deliver them.
5 They cried unto you, and were delivered: they trusted in you and were not forsaken.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh and scorn me: they shoot out the lip, they shake their head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But you are he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and you have brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have surrounded me: they have pierced my hands and my feet.  17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my garment.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 You that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all you the seed of Israel.
24 For he has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of you in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

FOR MORE - CLICK HERE



Who do you say Jesus is?

    John 12:44-45

    44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

    Isaiah 45-21-23

    21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

    22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

    23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.

    John 14:9

    9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

    Isaiah 9:6

    6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    John 20:26-28

    26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

http://propheticseasons.wordpress.com/

Edited by MysteryX, 07 April 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

Hi Ben,

Your theory fails in one key area.  You say that some "pious forgery" was required in order to justify Constantine in 312 AD.  The problem for your theory is that the texts of the New Testament were written more than two centuries earlier.

[Lion6969]

Paranoid Android, on 07 April 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Hi Ben,

Your theory fails in one key area.  You say that some "pious forgery" was required in order to justify Constantine in 312 AD.  The problem for your theory is that the texts of the New Testament were written more than two centuries earlier.

And there were many texts not included in the new testament, pious forgery or selective reading?

[Mr Walker]

Well, traditionally jesus died so that we might live. Jesus had at least three roles  on earth. One was a template for how man can think and live. Second was as a teacher of wisdoms and truths.

Third, but perhaps most important in christian theology, he was the sacrificial lamb whose blood washed away original sin and cleansed us all. (Every human being; past present and future)) His sacrifice allowed each one of us to stand as "clean skins", clothed in his righteousness, and be judged on our own individual hearts, and minds and deeds.

[Seeker79]

There is circumstantial evidence in the story that Jesus knew he was going to be crucified even planned it.

As to the motivations of the Romans....well.... It's business as usual . Descidents are not alliowed in totalitarian regimes.

[Arbitran]

Jesus of Nazareth was crucified for sedition against the Roman Empire. Enough said.

[CommunitarianKevin]

Jesus was crucified because of the misunderstanding of the word "Messiah." Messiah could mean king of the Jews (what the Romans thought) or God's annointed one. The Romans had a problem with someone proclaiming themself king...

[Beckys_Mom]

Paranoid Android, on 07 April 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Hi Ben,

Your theory fails in one key area.  You say that some "pious forgery" was required in order to justify Constantine in 312 AD.  The problem for your theory is that the texts of the New Testament were written more than two centuries earlier.

Is it not true that many Jewish people  not believe  that Jesus was ever crucified ?  Like the OP ?

[Eldorado]

If your cries for social justice are making poor people ask questions, rich people will do you in.  One way or another.

[Realm]

Isa 53:7
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isa 50:6
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.


Psa 22:16  
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.


Psa 69:21  
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.


Psa 50:21  
These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

Psa 50:22
Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.


Joh 12:44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.


Joh 12:45
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.


Joh 1:10  
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


Gen 1:1  
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Happy Easter Jesus.

[HavocWing]

HuttonEtAl, on 08 April 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

The Romans had a problem with someone proclaiming themself king...

I think any country, state, providence would have a problem with some complete stranger coming and exalting himself over everyone.

[Paranoid Android]

Lion6969, on 07 April 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

And there were many texts not included in the new testament, pious forgery or selective reading?

1- That other texts may or may not exist is irrelevant to the premise of the OP.  The thread starter suggested the premise that the crucifixion was a "pious forgery" after that time.  Since texts predate that event by several centuries, the conclusion of the OP is flawed.  Therefore Constantine made no "forgery", at worst a text was selectively chosen.  

2- Yes, many texts were not included in the New Testament.  However, in regards to the crucifixion, the gospels are the texts of particular note.  As early as the mid-2nd Century AD early Christians were adamant that there were only four true gospels, so when the Council of Nicaea was convened it was natural for them to choose only four.  It stands to reason then that the four earliest written gospels ended up being chosen.  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John represent the four earliest texts (possible exception of Thomas, some scholars argue an early date for that, while others maintain a 2nd Century date).  It's common sense, if the four earliest written gospels are accepted over gospels that date well over a hundred years after Jesus were used.  

The ironic thing here is that some people who argue "what about the other gospels" also argue in the very next sentence about how late the gospels were written (Mark, the earliest gospel, written approximately 40 years after Jesus).  But they don't really care that the gospels that were not included are sometimes more than a hundred years after Jesus.  To use a phrase, it's like they want to have their cake and eat it too.  On one hand, they demand to know why the earliest gospel is 40 years after the event, but they then turn and ridicule the non-inclusion of other texts despite those dating 100+ years after the event.  And to play Devil's Advocate, if all the gospels were included, these same people would ridicule the council of Nicaea for not being more discerning in their choices.  They'll mention how some gospels were indeed written more than a hundred years after the event, and demand to know why the council didn't take this into consideration.

Honestly, I've heard of win/win scenarios, but for sceptics, in the case of Nicaea they seem to have a win/win/win situation, regardless of what actually happened in the 4th Century.  I wish us believers had it so easy

[Paranoid Android]

Beckys_Mom, on 08 April 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Is it not true that many Jewish people  not believe  that Jesus was ever crucified ?  Like the OP ?

Whether some people did or did not believe in Jesus' crucifixion is irrelevant to the point I made. And before you say "No, it isn't irrelevant", please read further to see my reasoning.  The OP states that Constantine engaged in "pious forgery" in order to write in a crucifixion.  However, the texts that support a crucifixion date centuries before Constantine ever existed.  Therefore he could not possibly have forged them, or ordered them forged.  

Does that mean that the crucifixion happened?  No, it might have been a 1st Century forgery or myth.  Nevertheless, the point is, in terms of the OP, Constantine had nothing to do with the forgery.  At best it can be said that he chose texts that supported his stance at the expense of other non-crucifixion texts.  And I say "at best", because after studying Nicaea I do not think this to be the case.  But my own beliefs are irrelevant also.  The claim that Constantine was involved in "pious forgery" to invent a crucifixion is simply unsustainable in the face of textual evidence to the contrary.

~ Regards,