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But Really, Why Was Jesus Crucified?


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#16    sonofman

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:19 PM

A careful reading of the New Testament reveals that Jesus permitted the crucifixion because his Father wanted him to permit it.  The real question is why did his Father want Jesus to submit to the crucifixion?  I can think of a couple reasons:

  • To prove that resurrection is real
  • To let Jesus experience a painful death alone (his Father didn't comfort him on the cross), because in pain man is perfected, even the Son of man
  • To earn the right to represent God and receive all authority from his Father to take charge of us.

Notice I leave out "to die for our sins", because that makes no sense (believe me, I searched the entire bible).  However, he did say that his death was for remission of sin, so we have to hold this in tension.  Nevertheless, it's very clear from the New Testament that what Jesus was offering us was the greatest gift from God we could receive:  eternal life, forgiveness of sins, and pure joy in the world the come.  To whatever degree Jesus' death helped him and us in that regard, we should be grateful.


#17    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 08 April 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Whether some people did or did not believe in Jesus' crucifixion is irrelevant to the point I made. And before you say "No, it isn't irrelevant", please read further to see my reasoning.  (SNIP)

STOP.......I am not getting at your posts PA  the points you made  ...I am trying to tell you something..and I was only asking you a fair question

I'll PM it...




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#18    Paranoid Android

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 08 April 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

STOP.......I am not getting at your posts PA  the points you made  ...I am trying to tell you something..and I was only asking you a fair question

I'll PM it...
I'll check my inbox when it comes, though I'm just headed to bed and probably won't read it until later today (and if I read, I won't respond until later).  As to your question, the idea that Jesus did not die on the cross is as far as I am aware a relatively new idea.  I am no historian so I cannot point to any specific sources, but from what I was aware even the earliest critics of Christianity accepted the crucifixion as an actual event to which Jesus did die.

But regardless of those who do or do not believe Jesus died, the point is not relevant to the OP, which suggests Constantine forged documents to insert a crucifixion and resurrection into the story.  That is simply unsupportable.  That's all I was saying :tu:

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#19    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:03 PM

View PostEldorado, on 08 April 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

If your cries for social justice are making poor people ask questions, rich people will do you in.  One way or another.
Well put.   The religious authorities of the day were in the pockets of the rich of that society just like they are now.  

Jesus was a dangerous man to those in power and was silenced as a result.

-OR-

Jesus was crucified so you will feel guilty about all the crappy things you do in your life and act like a better person as a result, and give the church money too.  

Those seem like to two most likely explanations and generally the most likely explanations are the ones that are true.


#20    Jor-el

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 07 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

BUT REALLY, WHY WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?


There is no secret about it; and the NT can't be more clear. On the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a white donkey, some among the crowd of his followers would proclaim him king of the Jews. (John 12:13) And Jerusalem of all cities, especially for being The abode of Pilate, a man whose day was not made till he crucified a Jew!

Josephus reports in his "War of the Jews" that Pilate took so much pleasure from crucifying Jews that he exceeded into thousands of them. In the case of Jesus, he nailed the reason on the top of his cross: For being proclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, which was the Land of Israel at the time.

On the year 312 ACE, Christianity was being considered for the choice to become the official religion of the Empire by Emperor Constantine, and the charge that Rome had crucified Jesus was a liability bordering on disqualifying the Church for that promotion. Therefore, some pious forgery was in order. For instance, that Pilate had been forced by the Jewish authorities to crucify Jesus, hence the washing of Pilate's hands, by which, guilt would be transferred from Rome unto the Jews. For another, they even set Peter charging the Jews with having crucified Jesus in a speech written by Luke but never delivered in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:14,36) Though it made no sense, as they were well aware, it didn't matter; the Church needed that promotion, and any thing else would be justified. Anyways, the Jews needed to pay for rejecting the new religion.

Ben

Jesus was crucified because he was the Paschal Lamb, that would be slaughtered so that others through him might live.

The Passover Lamb or the Paschal Lamb is the sacrifice that the Torah mandates to be brought on the eve of Passover, and eaten on the first night of the holiday with bitter herbs and matzo. According to the Torah, it was first offered on the night of the Israelites' Exodus from Egypt. The blood of this sacrifice sprinkled on the door-posts of the Israelites was to be a sign to God, when the angel of death passed through the land to slay the first-born of the Egyptians that night, that he should pass by the houses of the Israelites.

That the Paschal Lamb prefigured symbolically Jesus Christ, "the Lamb of God", who redeemed the world by the shedding of His blood and in so doing protects us against the judgement of God for our sins.

There are no innocents , not even Pilate who washed his hands, the most cowardly of acts. No-one is lessening his guilt, to the contrary it heightens it. Woe to the man who can do good, and does not, he is as much the murderer as the man who does the killing.

As for the church of later ages, their guilt is theirs to carry for all eternity, they were seduced by power in this world, forgetting that God is the ruler of all, not they. That seduction was deep, for they were seduced by power, and power corrupts all it touches.

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#21    Arbitran

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:37 PM

View PostRealm, on 08 April 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

Isa 53:7
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isa 50:6
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.


Psa 22:16  
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.


Psa 69:21  
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.


Psa 50:21  
These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

Psa 50:22
Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.


Joh 12:44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.


Joh 12:45
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.


Joh 1:10  
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


Gen 1:1  
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Happy Easter Jesus.

And what are these lines supposed to prove? All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#22    Realm

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:23 AM

View PostArbitran, on 08 April 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

And what are these lines supposed to prove? All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context.

It should prove to the op, that he was mentioned in prophesy, fulfilled prophesy, and when he came, instead of accepting him, they crucified him. He was crucified because they Jewish didn't believe he was the Messiah according to scripture.

He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, he gave his back to the smiters,they pierced him, tried to give him vinegar to drink, all according to the old testament scriptures and verified by new testament scriptures. As for who he said he was, he didn't stutter.

As for your comment "All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context".  It shows you haven't read the Bible in context.

Edited by Realm, 09 April 2012 - 12:33 AM.


#23    Arbitran

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:44 AM

View PostRealm, on 09 April 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

It should prove to the op, that he was mentioned in prophesy, fulfilled prophesy, and when he came, instead of accepting him, they crucified him. He was crucified because they Jewish didn't believe he was the Messiah according to scripture.

He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, he gave his back to the smiters,they pierced him, tried to give him vinegar to drink, all according to the old testament scriptures and verified by new testament scriptures. As for who he said he was, he didn't stutter.

As for your comment "All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context".  It shows you haven't read the Bible in context.

I have read the Bible, in context: many times. None of the "prophecies" which you cited, are, in fact, prophecies. In fact, if you had read the book of Isaiah, you would see that the "suffering servant" was in fact the nation of the Israelites, who were brought out of Egypt. In the Isaiah passage, king Ahaz fears an imminent attack by two enemies. The birth of the child in verse 7:14 is part of a promise from Yahweh that the lands of the two enemies feared by Ahaz will be deserted “before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.” (Isaiah 7:15) So obviously the child was to be born during the time of this conflict, which is well before the birth of Jesus. And surely Jesus, if he truly was god, would have already known “how to refuse the evil and choose the good” so the Isaiah child, who has to learn these things, cannot possibly be identified with Jesus.

"...the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 'Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.' But Ahaz said, 'I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test.' Then Isaiah said, 'Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The maiden will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria."  ~ Isaiah 7:10-17

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#24    Realm

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:49 AM

Luk_24:44  
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


If they were, and are to be fulfilled, some of the Psalms are indeed prophesies. Learn your Bible, and leave me alone.


#25    Arbitran

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:56 AM

View PostRealm, on 09 April 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

Luk_24:44  
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


If they were, and are to be fulfilled, some of the Psalms are indeed prophesies. Learn your Bible, and leave me alone.

I have learned the Bible, and it is a farce.
I will leave you alone if you desire: it only serves as clear confirmation that you have no convincing argument to present here.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#26    Realm

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:20 AM

View PostArbitran, on 09 April 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

I have learned the Bible, and it is a farce.
I will leave you alone if you desire: it only serves as clear confirmation that you have no convincing argument to present here.


I have plenty to say, but it won't change the fact that you will come back with snide, ignorant, and presumptuos remarks:

IE: All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context. Presumptuos

IE: I have read the Bible, in context: many times. None of the "prophecies" which you cited, are, in fact, prophecies. In fact, if you had read the book of Isaiah, you would see that the "suffering servant" was in fact the nation of the Israelites, who were brought out of Egypt.

Isa 53:7  
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Act 8:32  
The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Act 8:33  
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Act 8:34  
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Act 8:35  
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Last I knew Jesus wasn't a nation as you claim, of course that the ignorant part I mentioned concerning you.

And then there is your snideness:
it only serves as clear confirmation that you have no convincing argument to present here

And therein was why I wanted you to leave me alone, I didn't want to argue.

But I will leave you with the last word, gloat in them.


#27    Arbitran

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:55 AM

View PostRealm, on 09 April 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

I have plenty to say, but it won't change the fact that you will come back with snide, ignorant, and presumptuos remarks:

IE: All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context. Presumptuos

IE: I have read the Bible, in context: many times. None of the "prophecies" which you cited, are, in fact, prophecies. In fact, if you had read the book of Isaiah, you would see that the "suffering servant" was in fact the nation of the Israelites, who were brought out of Egypt.

Isa 53:7  
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Act 8:32  
The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Act 8:33  
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Act 8:34  
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Act 8:35  
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Last I knew Jesus wasn't a nation as you claim, of course that the ignorant part I mentioned concerning you.

And then there is your snideness:
it only serves as clear confirmation that you have no convincing argument to present here

And therein was why I wanted you to leave me alone, I didn't want to argue.

But I will leave you with the last word, gloat in them.

The New Testament wasn't written at the same time as the Old Testament. Thus, it is clear that the authors of the books of the New merely mimicked or latched onto whatever scripture they could to try and give their new religion an air of legitimacy: which it lacked, and continues to lack. You don't prove that your book is true by quoting a passage in the book that says that it's true. That's absurd.
One good question you probably haven't thought of: when Jesus died, according to the New Testament, all of the dead came back to life. Why on Earth didn't a single person on the planet ever make any mention of this? The book also says that these dead people spoke to their living relatives. Why didn't anyone write down what they said? The whole story has the air of sheer fiction--and until a shred of tangible evidence surfaces which shows it to be anything otherwise, it is clearly a fictional story.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#28    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:33 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 07 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

BUT REALLY, WHY WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?

Since it's the greatest story ever told, Jesus was a tragic character in life -- the narrative life of Jesus. A tragic hero always dies at the end of a good book. "Vox in Rama."

Edited by braveone2u, 09 April 2012 - 08:35 AM.

"Also, if they (Gospels) were written early (before 70 AD), this would mean that there would not have been enough time for myth to creep into the gospel accounts since it was the eyewitnesses to Christ's life that wrote them."

#29    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:14 PM

View Postand then, on 07 April 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

As believers celebrate his resurrection I can say that my Lord gave Himself to be killed.  No one took His life.  The politics of his execution have been used down the centuries to spread hate and violence, which is what the deceiver does with all good acts if he can.
The story on this Easter is not how He died but that HE IS RISEN! :yes:

I have got a couple of questions about this post of yours above. The first is about Jesus' resurrection. I would be more than ready to change my views if a believer in Jesus' resurrection would show me in the NT who was ever an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection. What I have found so far is that even the angel of Matthew, when he came down and removed the stone at the end of that Sabbath, the tomb had already been empty. I mean, even the angel was cheated out of being an eyewitness. Then, Jesus was a Jewish man, and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection.

The second question is about what you claim that Jesus gave himself up to be killed because no one would take his life. What I find in my reading of the gospels is that soon after his supper with his disciples in the Upper Room, he went to the Gethsemane, where he prayed three times asking God to remove his fate to die on the cross. And that when he realized that he had no answer to his prayers, he lost patience and said, "be Thy will done but not mine." Not mine!!! What was his will then? I understand that he walked the via dolosa against his will. In other words, that he was forced to die on the cross. How to die against one's will is to give oneself up to be killed? It makes no sense to me.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 09 April 2012 - 06:17 PM.


#30    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:35 PM

View PostMysteryX, on 07 April 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

To fulfill PSALMS 22 of the Jewish Tanakh of the Masoretic Text. Note: this was written by King David 970 years before Jesus
was hung on a cross and is in every Jewish Bible to this day.

Psalms 22 shown below was written by King David almost 1,000 years before the birth of Jesus.

If you read all of Psalms 22 you see were it also states, “Stand in awe of him all you sons of Israel, sons of  Jacob. Stand in Awe of who? The one who was killed in Psalms 22 as written by King David.  


Psalms: Chapter 22


1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but you hear me not; and in the night season, I am not silent.
3 But you art holy, O thou that inhabits the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and you did deliver them.
5 They cried unto you, and were delivered: they trusted in you and were not forsaken.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh and scorn me: they shoot out the lip, they shake their head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But you are he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and you have brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have surrounded me: they have pierced my hands and my feet.  17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my garment.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 You that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all you the seed of Israel.
24 For he has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of you in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

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Who do you say Jesus is?


    John 12:44-45

    44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

    Isaiah 45-21-23

    21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

    22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

    23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.

    John 14:9

    9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

    Isaiah 9:6

    6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    John 20:26-28

    26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

http://propheticseasons.wordpress.com/

Yes, I read Psalm 22 and, in my mind, I found nothing to tell me that it is a reference to Jesus. Perhaps you do because of your Christian pre-conceived notions. Then, according to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the time, thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans in the very same manner. No difference among them for the Romans did not have a different method to crucify a Jew from another. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that the Hellenistic guys who wrote the gospels plagiarized Psalm 22 to apply it to Jesus?

Now, to use Isaiah talking about God Himself and apply it to Jesus, I believe that if Jesus could think of it, he would turn in his grave. Why? Because he was a Jewish man and, according to Judaism, there is no such a thing as the Greek myth of the demigod who is the son of a god with an eartly woman. Read Isaiah 46:5. "Who would you compare Me with as an equal or match Me against as though we were alike?" It means that God is absolutely One and there is no other. Jesus himself affirmed that truth in Mark 12:29.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 09 April 2012 - 06:37 PM.





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