Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * - - - 2 votes

But Really, Why Was Jesus Crucified?


  • Please log in to reply
640 replies to this topic

#151    Arbitran

Arbitran

    Post-Singularitan Hyperturing Synthetic Intelligence

  • Member
  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined:13 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:39 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

He was talking of the moral law, and to exemplify his point, the rest of the chapter deals with such examples of moral law. The moral law trumps the ceremonial laws and are superior. As such Jesus demonstrates the superiority of the moral law by going beyond what the ceremonioal law asks of us.

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherb will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Now you tell me why you refuse to touch on what I stated regarding Isaiah 53 demonstrating beyond doubt that a human figure, becomes a guilt offering?

Wow. "[A]nyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

I guess that explains why Jesus went to hell... He called people fools all the time!

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#152    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:40 PM

View PostArbitran, on 12 April 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

In any case, it's clear that Jesus wasn't dead for a full three days: despite the text claiming it. Even working with the Jewish calendar, as I think everyone here is, Jesus could only have been dead about two days, maximum; based on the descriptions in the text.

Actually no, that is the whole point...

I posted this earlier, for Ben Masada.

The tombstone was rolled away on the morning of the 4th day. He speant 3 complete days and nights in the tomb, fullstop.

14th Nisan, Day 0 - sundown Tuesday to sundown Wednesday - Erev Pesach (the day before the Sabbath), Preperation day, The night of the Last Supper. The day Jesus was crucified.
15th Nisan, Day 1 - sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday - Pesach I (Passover), 1st day of Unleavened Bread.
16th Nisan, Day 2 - sundown Thursday to sundown Friday - Pesach II, 2nd day of Unleavened Bread
17th Nisan, Day 3 - sundown Friday to sundown Saturday - Pesach III, Sixth day Sabbath, 3rd day of Unleavened Bread
18th Nisan, Day 4 - sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday - Pesach IV, The day of Firstfruits, Resurrection on Sunday, in the early Morning. In rising from the dead, Jesus became the first-fruits of all those who die and yet will be resurrected to live forever.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#153    Arbitran

Arbitran

    Post-Singularitan Hyperturing Synthetic Intelligence

  • Member
  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined:13 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:43 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Actually no, that is the whole point...

I posted this earlier, for Ben Masada.

The tombstone was rolled away on the morning of the 4th day. He speant 3 complete days and nights in the tomb, fullstop.

14th Nisan, Day 0 - sundown Tuesday to sundown Wednesday - Erev Pesach (the day before the Sabbath), Preperation day, The night of the Last Supper. The day Jesus was crucified.
15th Nisan, Day 1 - sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday - Pesach I (Passover), 1st day of Unleavened Bread.
16th Nisan, Day 2 - sundown Thursday to sundown Friday - Pesach II, 2nd day of Unleavened Bread
17th Nisan, Day 3 - sundown Friday to sundown Saturday - Pesach III, Sixth day Sabbath, 3rd day of Unleavened Bread
18th Nisan, Day 4 - sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday - Pesach IV, The day of Firstfruits, Resurrection on Sunday, in the early Morning. In rising from the dead, Jesus became the first-fruits of all those who die and yet will be resurrected to live forever.

I was under the impression that Jesus was crucified on a Friday, not a Wednesday.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#154    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:55 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

If you can quote any thing in the Tanach about bodily resurrection, you have won me as a Christian. About Maimonides, you must read his "The Guide
for the Perplexed." He did not believe even in the eternity of the universe, let alone in the immortality of man. And about the other Jewish wisemen, none believed in bodily resurrection.
Ben

If you don't read what I post I won't bother to answer you...

"I firmly believe that there will take place a revival of the dead at a time which will please the Creator, blessed be His name."

Saadia also, in his "Emunot we-De'ot" (following Sanh. x. 1), declared the belief in resurrection to be fundamental.

Ḥasdai Crescas, on the other hand, declared it to be a specific doctrine of Judaism, but not one of the fundamental teachings, which view is taken also by Joseph Albo in his "'Iḳḳarim" (i., iv. 35-41, xxiii.).

The chief difficulty, as pointed out by the latter author, is to find out what the resurrection belief actually implied or comprised, since the ancient rabbis themselves differed as to whether resurrection was to be universal, or the privilege of the Jewish people only, or of the righteous only.

This again depends on the question whether it was to form part of the Messianic redemption of Israel, or whether it was to usher in the last judgment.

Saadia sees in the belief in resurrection a national hope, and endeavors to reconcile it with reason by comparing it with other miraculous events in nature and history recorded in the Bible. Maimonides and Albo in their commentary on Sanh. x. 1, Ḳimḥi in his commentary on Ps. i. 5, Isaac Aboab in his "Menorat ha-Ma'or" (iii. 4, 1), and Baḥya ben Asher in his commentary on Gen. xxiii. extend resurrection to the righteous only.

On the other hand, Isaac Abravanel in his "Ma'yene Yeshu'ah" (ii. 9) concedes it to all Israel; Manasseh ben Israel, in his "Nishmat Ḥayyim" (i. 2, 8), and others, to all men.

Maimonides, however (see his commentary, l.c., and "Yad," Teshubah, viii.), took the resurrection figuratively, and substituted for it immortality of the soul, as he stated at length in his "Ma'amar Teḥiyyat ha-Metim"; Judah ha-Levi also, in his "Cuzari," took resurrection figuratively (i. 115, iii. 20-21).


The various examples above demonstrate beyond doubt that Jewish Wisemen differed in their opinions, of which Rambam, was only one such.

As for the Tanach...

Job 19:25-27

25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;

27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yeans within me!


You do know that Job is traditionally the oldest book of the bible? Yet it is evident even there.

Isaiah 26:19

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Daniel 12:2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You asked for one, I gave you three.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#155    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:59 PM

View PostArbitran, on 12 April 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

I was under the impression that Jesus was crucified on a Friday, not a Wednesday.

Ah tradition is a b.... isn't it?

That's what happens when people assume that because we celebrate it that way today, that that is what happened. The New Testament in its entirety points to a Wednseday crucifixion.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#156    Arbitran

Arbitran

    Post-Singularitan Hyperturing Synthetic Intelligence

  • Member
  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined:13 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:01 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

If you don't read what I post I won't bother to answer you...

"I firmly believe that there will take place a revival of the dead at a time which will please the Creator, blessed be His name."

Saadia also, in his "Emunot we-De'ot" (following Sanh. x. 1), declared the belief in resurrection to be fundamental.

Ḥasdai Crescas, on the other hand, declared it to be a specific doctrine of Judaism, but not one of the fundamental teachings, which view is taken also by Joseph Albo in his "'Iḳḳarim" (i., iv. 35-41, xxiii.).

The chief difficulty, as pointed out by the latter author, is to find out what the resurrection belief actually implied or comprised, since the ancient rabbis themselves differed as to whether resurrection was to be universal, or the privilege of the Jewish people only, or of the righteous only.

This again depends on the question whether it was to form part of the Messianic redemption of Israel, or whether it was to usher in the last judgment.

Saadia sees in the belief in resurrection a national hope, and endeavors to reconcile it with reason by comparing it with other miraculous events in nature and history recorded in the Bible. Maimonides and Albo in their commentary on Sanh. x. 1, Ḳimḥi in his commentary on Ps. i. 5, Isaac Aboab in his "Menorat ha-Ma'or" (iii. 4, 1), and Baḥya ben Asher in his commentary on Gen. xxiii. extend resurrection to the righteous only.

On the other hand, Isaac Abravanel in his "Ma'yene Yeshu'ah" (ii. 9) concedes it to all Israel; Manasseh ben Israel, in his "Nishmat Ḥayyim" (i. 2, 8), and others, to all men.

Maimonides, however (see his commentary, l.c., and "Yad," Teshubah, viii.), took the resurrection figuratively, and substituted for it immortality of the soul, as he stated at length in his "Ma'amar Teḥiyyat ha-Metim"; Judah ha-Levi also, in his "Cuzari," took resurrection figuratively (i. 115, iii. 20-21).


The various examples above demonstrate beyond doubt that Jewish Wisemen differed in their opinions, of which Rambam, was only one such.

As for the Tanach...

Job 19:25-27

25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;

27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yeans within me!


You do know that Job is traditionally the oldest book of the bible? Yet it is evident even there.

Isaiah 26:19

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Daniel 12:2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You asked for one, I gave you three.

Get back to me when that actually happens. Then we'll talk.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#157    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:04 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

God never showed Himself face-to-face to Moses. That expression was used by the writer to distinguish Moses from any other prophet for the fact that he was the most important prophet in the History of Israel. God is not like a man to have a face to show. God has no form at all. (Deut. 4:15-20) God is Spirit as Jesus himself said so. (John 4:24) At least, believe what he said.  A spirit is incorporeal. (
Ben

Ah so Moses isn't the writer?

To me he was, I'm sorry you don't believe that he wrote the Torah... I take it as truth, not a metaphorical or a literary invention. To me these things happened. As such you can believe what you want, you are the one who has to live with that belief. My source of belief is there written in black and white.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#158    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:05 PM

View PostArbitran, on 12 April 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Get back to me when that actually happens. Then we'll talk.

By that time, what is done is done and what has been decided has been... a little late in the game for talking.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#159    Arbitran

Arbitran

    Post-Singularitan Hyperturing Synthetic Intelligence

  • Member
  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined:13 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:09 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Ah tradition is a b.... isn't it?

That's what happens when people assume that because we celebrate it that way today, that that is what happened. The New Testament in its entirety points to a Wednseday crucifixion.

Could you cite references that support this claim?

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#160    Arbitran

Arbitran

    Post-Singularitan Hyperturing Synthetic Intelligence

  • Member
  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined:13 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:10 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

By that time, what is done is done and what has been decided has been... a little late in the game for talking.

So, in other words... There's no reason whatsoever that I should believe you. Okay.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#161    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Nothing goes into the record without a contextual evidence; and you don't show any to justify your assertion. Joseph yes, was of the Tribe of Judah. Mary was of the Tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5,36) Therefore, Jesus was without tribe in Israel. According to Jewish Halachah, a child cannot inherit the tribe of the mother; only of the father. Of the mother, only his Jewish identity is inherited.
Ben

Why do you say contextual evidence is needed, you've been throwing out the context from the beginning, including that passage you used, yet again.

They were not cousins, no matter how much you want to ignore that now.

She could have been an aunt, twice removed and you still wouldn't be right.

Mary was NOT of the tribe of Levi, there is nothing in those verses that confirms your view. If the actual greek word was cousin, I would give you reason... it ain't get over it.

If Elizabeth, had a sister, and she had married  Marys' father, Heli, that would have made Mary, the daughter of a levite woman and a man of Judah, whose tribe would she belong to?

Don't ignore the fact that we have the geneologies of Jesus, one from each side of the family. We have Josephs, and we have Marys, and she is descended from david, putting her in the tribe of Judah without a doubt.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#162    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:23 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

You cannot compare what you have studied of Judaism to what a Jew who has not only studied a lot of his Faith, he has been born as such. If you indeed
have Rabbis as friends of yours, you should check with them about our debate and start believing what I am saying.
Ben

Now that is the problem here... authenticity...

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#163    Arbitran

Arbitran

    Post-Singularitan Hyperturing Synthetic Intelligence

  • Member
  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined:13 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:23 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Why do you say contextual evidence is needed, you've been throwing out the context from the beginning, including that passage you used, yet again.

They were not cousins, no matter how much you want to ignore that now.

She could have been an aunt, twice removed and you still wouldn't be right.

Mary was NOT of the tribe of Levi, there is nothing in those verses that confirms your view. If the actual greek word was cousin, I would give you reason... it ain't get over it.

If Elizabeth, had a sister, and she had married  Marys' father, Heli, that would have made Mary, the daughter of a levite woman and a man of Judah, whose tribe would she belong to?

Don't ignore the fact that we have the geneologies of Jesus, one from each side of the family. We have Josephs, and we have Marys, and she is descended from david, putting her in the tribe of Judah without a doubt.

Actually, both genealogies are of Joseph--they just happen to contradict each other.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#164    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Finally, I agree with you on something. Indeed, any one was allowed to marry anybody else within or without his or her original Tribe. In the case of a woman, she would never inherit the tribal affiliation of her husband. She would remain of the tribe of her father till death. Even married to Joseph, Mary never became of the tribe of Judah. She remained a Levite till death. Jesus could not become a Levite. A Judahite yes, if he was a biological son of Joseph's.
Ben

Even with the evidence staring you in the face you don't give up, do you?

Show me please, how you can prove, that they were cousins and I will give you this victory.

The problem is that you are relying on a word that does not mean cousin, in any form whatsoever... my nephew or niece 5 times removed, would still be a kinsman or kinswoman. So would my great aunt twice removed...

Kin does not mean cousin, translation are touchy things, go to the origianl Greek text... I gave you the links...

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#165    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,576 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:41 PM

View PostArbitran, on 12 April 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Actually, both genealogies are of Joseph--they just happen to contradict each other.

No, One is of Mary, but Mary could not be added to the geneology, thus Joseph was put in her place., he was a son of Heli, but it was a "son in law".

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users