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But Really, Why Was Jesus Crucified?


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#181    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:21 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

When exactly does Sunday start according to the Jewish calendar?

It starts at sundown on Saturday...

Being Jewish and all you should know this... As it stands, History is quite evident on this issue, even if you personally don't practice it nowadays.

The 1st day of the week is Sunday, but let me tell you something you evidently didn't know when you quoted Matthew 28:1. The word Sabbbath in the text is plural!!!

The correct translation of the text is the following:

Matthew 28:1  

After the Sabbaths [plural], when it was growing light on the "first of Sabbaths" [day one of the week], Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to view the grave.

So how many Sabbaths are you counting?

I count two, the reference is to the Passover and to the weekly sabbath. Thus the 1st day after the sabbaths can only be the 1st day of the week or Sunday, as we generally call it. As I said, Sunday would have started at 6 PM on Saturday according to how the hebrews reckoned their days...

Well, you have a strange Bible translation. I have three here with me. None of the three gives "sabbaths" but "sabbath." I think we are wasting our
time discussing on different Bibles. We will never get anywhere.

And for when Sunday starts it is with the sunset of Saturday. I gave that night as the second night. So, you have two days and two nights. Matthew 12:40 says three days and three nights. Where is the third day and the third night? As you can see, it is all balderdash.
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#182    Paranoid Android

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:25 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And for when Sunday starts it is with the sunset of Saturday. I gave that night as the second night. So, you have two days and two nights. Matthew 12:40 says three days and three nights. Where is the third day and the third night? As you can see, it is all balderdash.
Ben
Wednesday morning - Jesus crucified
Wednesday afternoon - Jesus died and put in tomb

Wednesday evening, beginning of Passover, the SABBATH that was being prepared for - Night 1
Thursday morning - Day 1
Thursday evening - Night 2
Friday morning - Day 2
Friday evening, beginning of the regular Sabbath - Night 3
Saturday morning - Day 3
Saturday evening - Jesus rises
Sunday morning - Empty tomb discovered

Count them - three days and three nights :yes: Only your preconception that Passover was not Thursday stops this, and from experience you seem unwilling to entertain the possibility of a Thursday Passover.  Just because Christians traditionally celebrate Easter from Friday-Sunday does not mean that this is how it went.  Heck, Christmas is celebrated on December 25, and Jesus wasn't born anywhere near that month (depending on various sources, the most likely time was somewhere between July and September).

~ PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 18 April 2012 - 08:36 PM.

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#183    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 18 April 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Wednesday morning - Jesus crucified
Wednesday afternoon - Jesus died and put in tomb

Wednesday evening, beginning of Passover - Night 1
Thursday morning - Day 1
Thursday evening - Night 2
Friday morning - Day 2
Friday evening - Night 3
Saturday morning - Day 3
Saturday evening - Jesus rises
Sunday morning - Empty tomb discovered

Count them - three days and three nights :yes: Only your preconception that Passover was not Thursday stops this, and from experience you seem unwilling to entertain the possibility of a Thursday Passover

~ PA

Well that looks pretty straight forward to me...

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#184    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

He was talking of the moral law, and to exemplify his point, the rest of the chapter deals with such examples of moral law. The moral law trumps the ceremonial laws and are superior. As such Jesus demonstrates the superiority of the moral law by going beyond what the ceremonioal law asks of us.

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherb will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Now you tell me why you refuse to touch on what I stated regarding Isaiah 53 demonstrating beyond doubt that a human figure, becomes a guilt offering?

Isaiah 53 is talking about the Suffering Servant. If you read Isaiah 41:8,9 and 44:1,2,21, Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name. There
is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, who cannot be an individual but the collective in Israel, the whole Jewish People. An individual cannot become a guilt offering for another. It is against the Scriptures. (Exo. 32:33; Jer. 31:30) But the collective in Israel
became for Judah. That's when Israel, the Tabernacle of Joseph, was rejected by God, Who confirmed Judah, according to Psalm 78:67-69.

And for the Law that Jesus came to confirm is the Law of the Ten Commandments. There is no other. That's the Law Jesus confirmed and Paul said that was abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15)
Ben


#185    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

If you don't read what I post I won't bother to answer you...

"I firmly believe that there will take place a revival of the dead at a time which will please the Creator, blessed be His name."

Saadia also, in his "Emunot we-De'ot" (following Sanh. x. 1), declared the belief in resurrection to be fundamental.

Ḥasdai Crescas, on the other hand, declared it to be a specific doctrine of Judaism, but not one of the fundamental teachings, which view is taken also by Joseph Albo in his "'Iḳḳarim" (i., iv. 35-41, xxiii.).

The chief difficulty, as pointed out by the latter author, is to find out what the resurrection belief actually implied or comprised, since the ancient rabbis themselves differed as to whether resurrection was to be universal, or the privilege of the Jewish people only, or of the righteous only.

This again depends on the question whether it was to form part of the Messianic redemption of Israel, or whether it was to usher in the last judgment.

Saadia sees in the belief in resurrection a national hope, and endeavors to reconcile it with reason by comparing it with other miraculous events in nature and history recorded in the Bible. Maimonides and Albo in their commentary on Sanh. x. 1, Ḳimḥi in his commentary on Ps. i. 5, Isaac Aboab in his "Menorat ha-Ma'or" (iii. 4, 1), and Baḥya ben Asher in his commentary on Gen. xxiii. extend resurrection to the righteous only.

On the other hand, Isaac Abravanel in his "Ma'yene Yeshu'ah" (ii. 9) concedes it to all Israel; Manasseh ben Israel, in his "Nishmat Ḥayyim" (i. 2, 8), and others, to all men.

Maimonides, however (see his commentary, l.c., and "Yad," Teshubah, viii.), took the resurrection figuratively, and substituted for it immortality of the soul, as he stated at length in his "Ma'amar Teḥiyyat ha-Metim"; Judah ha-Levi also, in his "Cuzari," took resurrection figuratively (i. 115, iii. 20-21).


The various examples above demonstrate beyond doubt that Jewish Wisemen differed in their opinions, of which Rambam, was only one such.

As for the Tanach...

Job 19:25-27

25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;

27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yeans within me!


You do know that Job is traditionally the oldest book of the bible? Yet it is evident even there.

Isaiah 26:19

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Daniel 12:2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You asked for one, I gave you three.

None of them above makes reference to bodily resurrection. According to Isaiah 53:8,9, when the Jewish People are forced into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the land of the living and graves have been assigned to us in the Diaspora, among the Gentiles. Then, according to Ezekiel 37:12, when the exile is over, the Lord opens those graves and brings His People back to the Land of Israel. That's what we all refer to as metaphorical resurrection and not literal. That's the difference between us and you. Prophetical visions cannot be taken literally, but metaphorically.

And for Daniel 12:2, those of us who decide to return to the Land of Israel at the end of exile are considered to have chosen everlasting life; and those who have decided to stay in exile are considered to live in contempt, like the slave whose freedom is given and prefers to keep on being a slave to the same master.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 April 2012 - 08:51 PM.


#186    Amon-Ra

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:56 PM

Therefore, some pious forgery was in order. For instance, that Pilate had been forced by the Jewish authorities to crucify Jesus, hence the washing of Pilate's hands, by which, guilt would be transferred from Rome unto the Jews. For another, they even set Peter charging the Jews with having crucified Jesus in a speech written by Luke but never delivered in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:14,36) Though it made no sense, as they were well aware, it didn't matter; the Church needed that promotion, and any thing else would be justified. Anyways, the Jews needed to pay for rejecting the new religion.

Ben

This is nuts. All of the Bible was written long before Constantine.  Archeologists have dug up very old sections of the New Testament.  The sections from before Constantine put together have almost the whole of the Book.  Also: how do you explain how they rewrote the Bible in a highly literate, mostly pagan, society with nobody mentioning it?  I suggest that your view is based on religious prejudice, as indicated by your use of the anti-Christian ACE in place of AD.

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#187    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Ah so Moses isn't the writer?

To me he was, I'm sorry you don't believe that he wrote the Torah... I take it as truth, not a metaphorical or a literary invention. To me these things happened. As such you can believe what you want, you are the one who has to live with that belief. My source of belief is there written in black and white.

That's because you are moved by faith. Disraeli, a former British Prime Minister once said that where faith begins, knowledge ends. And according to Hosea 4:6, people perish for lack of knowledge. No wonder the faithfuls of Jim Jones were poisoned to death. Whenever you read the Torah again, focus on the grammar used by the writer. The third person. Do you think Moses wrote about someone else? Besides, it was written by someone already in the Land of Israel telling about the history of the world and of Israel. And it does not matter to me who wrote the Torah, as long as he was Jewish.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 April 2012 - 09:04 PM.


#188    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:10 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Why do you say contextual evidence is needed, you've been throwing out the context from the beginning, including that passage you used, yet again.

They were not cousins, no matter how much you want to ignore that now.

She could have been an aunt, twice removed and you still wouldn't be right.

Mary was NOT of the tribe of Levi, there is nothing in those verses that confirms your view. If the actual greek word was cousin, I would give you reason... it ain't get over it.

If Elizabeth, had a sister, and she had married  Marys' father, Heli, that would have made Mary, the daughter of a levite woman and a man of Judah, whose tribe would she belong to?

Don't ignore the fact that we have the geneologies of Jesus, one from each side of the family. We have Josephs, and we have Marys, and she is descended from david, putting her in the tribe of Judah without a doubt.

And I have told you more than several times, that tribal inheritance cannot be transmitted through the mother, according to Judaism, but you just don't get it. Besides, Luke is not talking about the genealogy of Mary but of Joseph. Nice try but Christians get nowhere with this fake attempt against the truth. Unless, for you, Jesus was not Jewish but Greek.
Ben


#189    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Now that is the problem here... authenticity...

Even by using your own NT, you cannot prove lack of authenticity in my argument.
Ben


#190    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:17 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 April 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Even with the evidence staring you in the face you don't give up, do you?

Show me please, how you can prove, that they were cousins and I will give you this victory.

The problem is that you are relying on a word that does not mean cousin, in any form whatsoever... my nephew or niece 5 times removed, would still be a kinsman or kinswoman. So would my great aunt twice removed...

Kin does not mean cousin, translation are touchy things, go to the origianl Greek text... I gave you the links...

Even if they were two strange women, there is nothing that tells me that Mary was of the Tribe of Judah. And even if she had been, it would be of no
help to Jesus. This had to be a biological son of Joseph's to be of the tribe of Judah. That's closed case.
Ben


#191    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 April 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

First, no need to be so condescending in your tone.  You're only making yourself look bad.  

That said, I am not disagreeing that Jesus rose on Sunday, the first day of the week.  Nor am I disagreeing that this was the day after the Sabbath.  Saturday is the Sabbath.  Now, my point - At this time of year, there is another Sabbath.  Passover is considered a high Sabbath by the Jews, unless you care to correct me on that.  Hence Jesus could easily have been crucified the day before Passover (Sabbath) on the Wednesday afternoon, and then rose again the day after a totally different Sabbath (regular Saturday), on the first day of the week.  

~ PA

Sorry for making myself look bad. I was just in a mood for a joke. Never mind when you think Jesus rose again, if Saturday, Sunday or Wednesday. Just
show me in the gospels an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus and I give you my word that I'll become a Christian.
Ben


#192    Paranoid Android

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Sorry for making myself look bad. I was just in a mood for a joke. Never mind when you think Jesus rose again, if Saturday, Sunday or Wednesday. Just
show me in the gospels an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus and I give you my word that I'll become a Christian.
Ben
There's no dispute as to when Jesus rose, it was Sunday morning.  When he died is where our dispute seems to rise.  Since I believe Jesus rose on Saturday evening and the first we hear (in the gospels) of the resurrection is the Sunday morning, I guess there are no "eye-witness accounts".  But I'm pretty sure you already knew that, hence your quickness to claim willingness to convert.  Seriously, I have no desire to turn you into a Christian so there's no reason to give me promises that you would become Christian IF I meet criteria x, y, or z (which I know you already know the answer to, so there you have it).

~ PA

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#193    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:32 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 April 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

You may continue to maintain this belief in the face of evidence, but Saul of Tarsus was a Pharisee, originally a persecutor of the early Christian movement, and eventually converted to Christianity and changed his name to Paul.  That's the way it is, but I understand why you would think he was a Hellenistic Jew instead :yes:

~ PA

Paul was not a Pharisee. The sect of the Pharisees would never accept a Hellenistic Jew to become a Pharisee. Paul never in the whole of his life persecuted a single Christian. Christians are not found in the synagogues of the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2) Paul never converted to Christianity; he founded
Christianity in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) Paul was called Paulus, a Hellenistic name for many Jews with the end "us". That's rather the way
it is. The difference between us is that you do not quote anything you say. Who said that he was a Pharisee, himself? Of course! His word could never
be taken for granted. Where is it written that he persecuted Christians? Nowhere. You see? Where is it written that he changed his name? Amazing!
Ben


#194    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:36 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 18 April 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

And yet Moses  is believed  by many....That's all I was saying.   Nothing more to be added   UNLESS you wish to derail   If so I am not interested..

We believe the prophets. Nevertheless, they got their messages through dreams and visions. Not because we believe in dreams, but because they, the
prophets spoke according to the Law and the testimony. (Isa. 8:20)
Ben


#195    Paranoid Android

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:55 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

The difference between us is that you do not quote anything you say.
You present yourself as such a learned Bible scholar, I figured I didn't need to quote specific passages.  Everything I am saying can be found in the Bible, I can give you scripture, if you want.  You may not believe Paul was a Pharisee (yes, I use the word "believe"), but just because his theology does not match with what you see as Jewish theology, it does not mean he was therefore not a Pharisee.  That's the way of things, that's all I'm saying :tu:

~ PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 18 April 2012 - 10:37 PM.

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