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An Answer for Gunter Grass


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#1    and then

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:18 PM

http://www.israelnat...08#.T4Gqvpn2bH4

They call it the SamsonOption.  Some will call it blackmail - they just call it survival or justice.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#2    Parsip

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:39 PM

How is it justice to murder millions, or billions, of innocents simply because a few thousand of your enemies are about to destroy you? This is pure selfish evil. I certainly hope this Samson Option is merely a bluff intended to force the world not to stop Israel from defending itself.

Edited by Parsip, 08 April 2012 - 05:40 PM.


#3    and then

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostParsip, on 08 April 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

How is it justice to murder millions, or billions, of innocents simply because a few thousand of your enemies are about to destroy you? This is pure selfish evil. I certainly hope this Samson Option is merely a bluff intended to force the world not to stop Israel from defending itself.
Because I don't believe it is just a few thousands.  Sure, only the immediate power structure would take and implement a decision to launch, but I believe it would be done with majority support of the populations.  And I base that belief from the coverage of their own words on tv and in protests and text over the better part of forty years.  If everyone in your country told you they hated you and wanted you to DIE, could you be selfless enough to kill yourself so that they were not harmed?  If you really could, then you are an exceptional human being.  And it begs the greater question Parsip, why should they even HAVE to think of defending themselves this way?  Is there any other nation on earth that is routinely threatened with calls for it's extinction?  If you are honest you know this is what Islam calls for and what many Islamists advocate.
Is it pure selfish evil to want your children to grow old and watch their children do the same in peace?  I believe, as I have stated in these threads before, that Israel will  
become the second nation on earth to use nuclear weapons in war.  I believe that Syria or it's proxy will attack Israel with chem/bio weapons and kill many thousands in TelAviv or Haifa and in return Damascus will become a heap of ruins just as the Bible predicts.  It's not my desire or my prediction and if the Bible seems evil to you in the judgments it foretells then you'll need to take that up with the One who inspired it.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#4    Parsip

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:01 PM

I don't believe two wrongs make a right. If someone poisons you and you have only a few days to live, it wouldn't be moral to kill that person's children and other innocents near him while you die. This is the same logic that terrorists use to justify murdering Israeli civilians. I can't support Israel if they kill dozens of millions of children. They'd be better off defeating their enemies in a conventional war instead of waiting until they're about to fall and then nuke the region or the world. This isn't 1948; Israel's actual enemies are few and weak. Most Middle Eastern countries have neither the ability nor will to start another war with Israel. Iran is a paper tiger and incapable of destroying Israel without nuclear weapons. Syria is complicated; I think Assad will win the civil war, and he's not stupid enough to provoke a war with Israel. Even if he loses and sends WMD towards Israel before being toppled, I think Israel will retaliate with conventional weaponry and not give up their nuclear opacity.

All we can do is speculate, but I don't think the end is near.


#5    and then

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostParsip, on 08 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I don't believe two wrongs make a right. If someone poisons you and you have only a few days to live, it wouldn't be moral to kill that person's children and other innocents near him while you die. This is the same logic that terrorists use to justify murdering Israeli civilians. I can't support Israel if they kill dozens of millions of children. They'd be better off defeating their enemies in a conventional war instead of waiting until they're about to fall and then nuke the region or the world. This isn't 1948; Israel's actual enemies are few and weak. Most Middle Eastern countries have neither the ability nor will to start another war with Israel. Iran is a paper tiger and incapable of destroying Israel without nuclear weapons. Syria is complicated; I think Assad will win the civil war, and he's not stupid enough to provoke a war with Israel. Even if he loses and sends WMD towards Israel before being toppled, I think Israel will retaliate with conventional weaponry and not give up their nuclear opacity.

All we can do is speculate, but I don't think the end is near.
I don't believe the end is near either.  Such an exchange as I mentioned would be regional not global.  As to using conventional weapons, I'm certain Israel would if it were possible.  But imagine a few dozen scuds with Sarin or VX landing at night in TelAviv.  The immediate dead would number thousands, maybe tens of thousands.  By the time they could locate and stop the launches with conventional means they might lose hundreds of thousands of citizens.  And not just any way...they would be GASSED.  Never underestimate the psychological impact of gassing Jews.  You are correct that Israel's enemies are few and relatively weak.  But when the IDF even strikes a cell in the act of firing a rocket they are condemned by the world community.  The option of the timing of dealing with their enemies is totally in the hands of those enemies.  Israel cannot be seen to initiate a war without risking global censure and possibly sanction.  I'm no warmonger.  I hate the waste and destruction, the suffering and injustice it brings.  My religious beliefs tell me this is what is to happen, eventually.  The details could be completely different than what I imagine but I have absolutely no doubt that Damascus will be destroyed overnight in a future conflict.  I also have no doubt that the military of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt as well as the Hamas and the Hizballah will all come against Israel and be defeated.  And once that happens the world will actually see peace for a few years because those who have yearned and striven for Israel's destruction will be silenced.
And for what it's worth, there is no indication in scripture that Israel is ever nuked or that it nukes all it's neighbors.  Damascus seems to be a unique case.  Although I have seen some conjecture that the Aswan High Dam is destroyed by a nuke, flooding the Nile basin and leaving Egypt desolate for 40 years.
What will be will be.  I just pray that when these things come to pass it will awaken many to the reality of prophecy.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#6    seller2006

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:17 PM

Uhmm and then is a ****ing idiot, can we get these Zionist ( extermists) by technicality, out of here, what if Muslim extremists started posting garbage like this, or how about KKK? im confused.  I don't even want to go into the statistic, paper trail, political agendas, evidence and logic of the Israel Palestine situation. But simple fact of te matter is the foundations of Israel were laid down by terrorists, and that same extremisim is being carried on by the gov, although MANY true Jewish people, Semites in Israel are anti war, anti Israel. Too bad 90% of the world is brainwashed into being super Jew sympthathetic, the holocaust was bad, but that is DEFINITELY not the worst, no where NEAR the worst genocide to occur ( all genocides are bad). I wonder how many natives were murdered? or Africans on the way to becoming slaves, or while they were slaves here, or Armenian. Over 120,000 JEWISH NAZI'S were ( ON PAPER) working for Hitler, killing their own, ( the very same that escaped later, also gained sympathy  and perpetuated Zionism( racism, extremism, racial supremacy)... I'm just confused, the Jewish people living with muslims before this whole thing were happy, now those same Jews are anti Israel and anti War. Fact of the matter is, your a Zionist, the rest is self explanatory.

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#7    seller2006

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:20 PM

View PostParsip, on 08 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I don't believe two wrongs make a right. If someone poisons you and you have only a few days to live, it wouldn't be moral to kill that person's children and other innocents near him while you die. This is the same logic that terrorists use to justify murdering Israeli civilians. I can't support Israel if they kill dozens of millions of children. They'd be better off defeating their enemies in a conventional war instead of waiting until they're about to fall and then nuke the region or the world. This isn't 1948; Israel's actual enemies are few and weak. Most Middle Eastern countries have neither the ability nor will to start another war with Israel. Iran is a paper tiger and incapable of destroying Israel without nuclear weapons. Syria is complicated; I think Assad will win the civil war, and he's not stupid enough to provoke a war with Israel. Even if he loses and sends WMD towards Israel before being toppled, I think Israel will retaliate with conventional weaponry and not give up their nuclear opacity.

All we can do is speculate, but I don't think the end is near.
I completely agree with you, the last thing anyone needs to see is a war, all these religious fanatics hoping for an apocalypse, for a saviour to return ... don't fall into their trap, the "messiah" will be a false one, the whole of humanity is our messiah .. we all need to change ourselves. I've noticed that Israeli people on forums, comments lists ,etc ,etc ,etc are PRO war, they consider Arabs ants and this is very disheartening ... at one side they always cry about the holocaust , what have you been doing since 1948? im confused. Im definitely not a holocaust denier, but i am skeptical of the numbers, especially because they do not add up... a few scholars claim upto 6 million, some downwards of 60,000 or 100,000 and many say 1-3 mill. Either way, people died. Even if it was 1 person, but again that doesn't justify the same heinous crimes that Israel had committed since 1948.

Edited by seller2006, 08 April 2012 - 10:25 PM.

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#8    and then

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:31 AM

View Postseller2006, on 08 April 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Uhmm and then is a ****ing idiot, can we get these Zionist ( extermists) by technicality, out of here, what if Muslim extremists started posting garbage like this, or how about KKK? im confused.  I don't even want to go into the statistic, paper trail, political agendas, evidence and logic of the Israel Palestine situation. But simple fact of te matter is the foundations of Israel were laid down by terrorists, and that same extremisim is being carried on by the gov, although MANY true Jewish people, Semites in Israel are anti war, anti Israel. Too bad 90% of the world is brainwashed into being super Jew sympthathetic, the holocaust was bad, but that is DEFINITELY not the worst, no where NEAR the worst genocide to occur ( all genocides are bad). I wonder how many natives were murdered? or Africans on the way to becoming slaves, or while they were slaves here, or Armenian. Over 120,000 JEWISH NAZI'S were ( ON PAPER) working for Hitler, killing their own, ( the very same that escaped later, also gained sympathy  and perpetuated Zionism( racism, extremism, racial supremacy)... I'm just confused, the Jewish people living with muslims before this whole thing were happy, now those same Jews are anti Israel and anti War. Fact of the matter is, your a Zionist, the rest is self explanatory.

Seller I say things here at UM, for the most part, in a respectful manner.  There are a couple of people I get a little riled at from time to time but I try not to lash out as rudely as this.....
You've taken a couple of vitriolic paragraphs to vilify Zionists and to call into question the severity of the Holocaust.  I believe you have every right to act in such a way and your personal opinion of me obviously means nothing but I wonder why the anger?  You equate my desire to see a modern State of wholly Jewish character settled in the land that I believe was given to them by God, to the hatred of those who want Islam to dominate the WORLD?  Or the stupidity of racists who just hate every other religion and skin color on earth except Caucasian?  
I thought the point of such discussion forums was to share DIFFERING opinions about the world but you seem to want to suppress free exchange of ideas when they don't jibe with your own.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#9    Otharus

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:29 PM

View Postand then, on 08 April 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

I just pray that when these things come to pass it will awaken many to the reality of prophecy.
Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecy?

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true,
by the very terms of the prophecy itself,
due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.

(wiki)

Posted Image

Edited by Otharus, 09 April 2012 - 04:33 PM.


#10    Otharus

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:53 PM

An English translation (by Michael Keefer and Nica Mintz) of the poem:

What must be said
By Günter Grass

Why have I kept silent, silent for too long
over what is openly played out
in war games at the end of which we
the survivors are at best footnotes.

It’s that claim of a right to first strike
against those who under a loudmouth’s thumb
are pushed into organized cheering—
a strike to snuff out the Iranian people
on suspicion that under his influence
an atom bomb’s being built.

But why do I forbid myself
to name that other land in which
for years—although kept secret—
a usable nuclear capability has grown
beyond all control, because
no scrutiny is allowed.

The universal silence around this fact,
under which my own silence lay,
I feel now as a heavy lie,
a strong constraint, which to dismiss
courts forceful punishment:
the verdict of “Antisemitism” is well known.

But now, when my own country,
guilty of primal and unequalled crimes
for which time and again it must be tasked—
once again, in pure commerce,
though with quick lips we declare it
reparations, wants to send
Israel yet another submarine—
one whose speciality is to deliver
warheads capable of ending all life
where the existence of even one
nuclear weapon remains unproven,
but where suspicion serves for proof—
now I say what must be said.

But why was I silent for so long?
Because I thought my origin,
marked with an ineradicable stain,
forbade mention of this fact
as definite truth about Israel, a country
to which I am and will remain attached.

Why is it only now I say,
in old age, with my last drop of ink,
that Israel’s nuclear power endangers
an already fragile world peace?
Because what by tomorrow might be
too late, must be spoken now,
and because we—as Germans, already
burdened enough—could become
enablers of a crime, foreseeable and therefore
not to be eradicated
with any of the usual excuses.

And admittedly: I’m silent no more
because I’ve had it with the West’s hypocrisy

—and one can hope that many others too
may free themselves from silence,
challenge the instigator of known danger
to abstain from violence,
and at the same time demand
a permanent and unrestrained control
of Israel’s atomic power
and Iranian nuclear plants
by an international authority
accepted by both governments.

Only thus can one give help
to Israelis and Palestinians—still more,
all the peoples, neighbour-enemies
living in this region occupied by madness
—and finally, to ourselves as well.


“Was gesagt werden muss” published in Süddeutschen Zeitung (4 April 2012)
http://pulsemedia.or...t-must-be-said/

~ ~ ~

Adding my own translation of the highlighted fragment:

I break the silence
because I am fed up
with Western hypocrisy


With my greatest respect to mister Grass.

Edited by Otharus, 09 April 2012 - 04:54 PM.


#11    and then

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

View PostOtharus, on 09 April 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecy?

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true,
by the very terms of the prophecy itself,
due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.

(wiki)

Posted Image
And if that prophecy is fulfilled and the event takes place, why does it matter how it happened?
Does it somehow make the land less desolate or the people less dead?  Or is it that as long as there is a human element for you to blame then you don't have to admit God just might exist?  People often use this old saw and I'm not sure what they are trying to say.  Grass' poem was his opinion of the situation in the world today.  He thinks the nation of Israel should be quiet and act like they did in the time he wore an SS uniform.  Never Again

Edited by and then, 09 April 2012 - 05:31 PM.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#12    Otharus

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

View Postand then, on 08 April 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

... if the Bible seems evil to you in the judgments it foretells then you'll need to take that up with the One who inspired it.
Do you believe that the Bible was inspired by God?


#13    Otharus

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostParsip, on 08 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

If someone poisons you and you have only a few days to live, it wouldn't be moral to kill that person's children and other innocents near him while you die.
Very well said.


#14    and then

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:29 PM

View PostOtharus, on 09 April 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Do you believe that the Bible was inspired by God?
Of course.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#15    and then

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:32 PM

View PostOtharus, on 09 April 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Very well said.
It is well said but it is a false analogy.  We are not talking about a foregone conclusion.  We are discussing whether a nation has a right to threaten genocide in response to being threatened with genocide.  How else do you deter someone who obviously has no morality from doing an unspeakably immoral thing?  Threaten them and all those who would support them with the same consequences.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.




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