84 replies to this topic

[jugoso]

www.reuters.com said:

The Catholic Church teaches that it has no authority to allow women to become priests because Jesus Christ willingly chose only men as his apostles when he instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.

Read more...

The older I get, The harder it is for me to "swallow" statements such as those above. I find it to be "out-of-date" and also quite insulting to women.

[Sakari]

I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

Edited by Sakari, 09 April 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Star of the Sea]

jugoso, on 09 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

The older I get, The harder it is for me to "swallow" statements such as those above. I find it to be "out-of-date" and also quite insulting to women.

I'm a Catholic female who doesn't find it insulting, infact I don't know any Catholic females who do

[jugoso]

Sakari
I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

They are:
A record 87,000 Austrians left the Church in 2010, many in reaction to sexual abuse scandals.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

Yes.

The Catholic Church teaches that it has no authority to allow women to become priests because Jesus Christ willingly chose only men as his apostles when he instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.

Star of the Sea
I'm a Catholic female who doesn't find it insulting, infact I don't know any Catholic females who do

Perhaps because many women raised Catholic have changed to more progressive religions which have no hierarcy based on gender. Would it be too forward of me to ask what eneration you are from and whether you were raised catholic or converted by choice as an adult ?

[glorybebe]

Sakari, on 09 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

In history, before Christianity came to be, women had rights, in Rome they could inherit the family estate, women were revered as the life givers.  Once Christianity became popular, women lost rights, they became property and looked upon as tempting men when men found them attractive.  I took a Medieval course and it was quite informative.

[Paranoid Android]

Sakari, on 09 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

Would it surprise you to learn that rates of child abuse in the Catholic Church are not discernibly different to any other denomination, or any other profession for that matter.

Sakari, on 09 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

I wouldn't necessarily take the stance of the RCC by saying that Jesus only chose males, but the Bible gives clear guidelines for relationships.  Jesus is depicted as the groom and the church (his people) as "the bride".  To reflect this, local leaders of local congregations (the overseers) should be men to continue that groom-bride symbolism - as Christ is the groom of the universal bride-church, so the local leader is the local groom of the local bride-church.

It has nothing to do with whether a woman is "good" or "smart" enough.  Some small groups of individuals probably do believe that women are somehow incapable/incompetent for the job, but I'm just saying that it is not the pattern God has planned for his church.  It doesn't mean women are inferior or less than a man, it just reflects different roles that God has planned for his people.  Women can still be involved with ministry at church, and I would actually think it dysfunctional if women were not involved in many different ministries.

That is my opinion on the Christian church.  The reasoning seems different to the RCC, but the conclusion is the same.

[Paranoid Android]

glorybebe, on 09 April 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

In history, before Christianity came to be, women had rights, in Rome they could inherit the family estate, women were revered as the life givers.  Once Christianity became popular, women lost rights, they became property and looked upon as tempting men when men found them attractive.  I took a Medieval course and it was quite informative.

Actually the history of the early church (early being circa pre-8th Century AD, give or take a couple of centuries), women were given new Rights and freedoms that was unprecedented.  In these earliest days, women were for the first time allowed to worship alongside men as equals.  Women were given a voice and people such as Priscilla and Junia, mentioned in the New Testament) were key figures in the early Christian movement, ministering God's word to others.  Unfortunately, as the church grew in power, so it grew in its lust to maintain hold on its power and dominate.  Thus turning into the Middle Ages (the period you studied) Rights were subsequently taken away from women and they became property, and denigrated by men.  It's a totally different picture in the Middle Ages to how Christianity originally begun.

Just thought I'd bring that up

[glorybebe]

Paranoid Android, on 10 April 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Actually the history of the early church (early being circa pre-8th Century AD, give or take a couple of centuries), women were given new Rights and freedoms that was unprecedented.  In these earliest days, women were for the first time allowed to worship alongside men as equals.  Women were given a voice and people such as Priscilla and Junia, mentioned in the New Testament) were key figures in the early Christian movement, ministering God's word to others.  Unfortunately, as the church grew in power, so it grew in its lust to maintain hold on its power and dominate.  Thus turning into the Middle Ages (the period you studied) Rights were subsequently taken away from women and they became property, and denigrated by men.  It's a totally different picture in the Middle Ages to how Christianity originally begun.

Just thought I'd bring that up

Check out ancient Roman history and you will see the rights that were taken away from women when Christianity was adopted as the officicial religion.

[~C.S.M~]

Sakari, on 09 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

How? I dont see how women priestes could help out?? beside that the problems isnt men or women, but the mass media who gives a poor image of the church.

Quote

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

why? maybe people are smarter than the media gives? and in the end, that is not the most important issue....

Quote

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

yes, they do.

[Paranoid Android]

glorybebe, on 10 April 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Check out ancient Roman history and you will see the rights that were taken away from women when Christianity was adopted as the officicial religion.

I have checked it out.  And in the earliest days (aka, the centuries immediately after Christ) women were given Rights previously unheard of.  When Christianity became the "Official Religion" (4th-5th Centuries) even then women largely retained those Rights.  Then as the Church gained in power and influence, so they grew in their desire for more power and more influence, and slowly the Rights of women were taken away.  By the time the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church split, the Rights of women were virtually non-existent.  None of that takes away from the early centuries of Christianity when women were given greater Rights than they had previously had.

~ PA

[Seeker79]

Ehhhh.. God dosnt assign gender roles. That is up to us, quite clearly people occupy a bell curve of criss crossing aptitudes. They always have and always will.

Women are perfectly capable of being spiritual leaders. I have a good friend who is a Wiccan high priestess and their female leaders do just fine. I'm not Wiccan, but when she talks I listen.....carefully.

The man that maried my wife and I was also a wonderful spiritual leader and catholic priest. He actually brought elements of Asian philosophy into his church. Got a little tipsy at our wedding, and I respected him even more for it. When I told him It would be a lie for me to convert to catholocism, he understood completely, and paved the way for my wife to have the catholic wedding she always  (moderate priests have sort of a dont ask dont tell policy) dreamed of despite the fact I would never be catholic. We were good friends until his death.

For Catholics to have female priests and all the hoopla about god original plans is BS. It's a smart business decision. They are already loosing and will continue to loose the support of Christians that have more.... Well... moderate... Liberal I guess.... sensibilities. This will never change. If they follow in suit then they will also loose the mass of conservative Catholics. It would be a double wammy and the death of the church. The catholic church is a survivor with great business minds behind it. They are not about to give up their base clientel just to be more modern.

Besides, can you imagine the worlds first pregnant catholic priest. Not saying a mother can't be a wonderful spiritual leader, but the very idea of a woman priestest who can get maried means they have to give up their stance on birth control otherwise she's going to end up with ten kids or a very sexually frustrated husband. I can go on about the 10 dozen ramifications and slippery slopes. Imagine a lesbian couple running a catholic congregation together. ( not that I would have the slightest problem with it, in fact, I might like to go to catholic masses more then) it is only one step away from allowing women to be priests and allowing them to marry.

Its not just about what's fair for women. If they give in, the entire structure and beleif stances has to change. It just would no longer be catholic. My guess is that they will hang on for centuries still.

Edited by Seeker79, 10 April 2012 - 07:44 AM.

[Sakari]

~C.S.M~, on 10 April 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

How? I dont see how women priestes could help out?? beside that the problems isnt men or women, but the mass media who gives a poor image of the church.



why? maybe people are smarter than the media gives? and in the end, that is not the most important issue....

Did the media make the Priests and members of the Catholic church that molested kids do it?.......Or did they just report it?

Tell you what, if the Catholic Church let women become priests it would show that the religion is fair.........

And, if the religion would in good faith, get rid of, and prosecute the ones doing the molesting, instead of hiding it, and forgiving it, maybe that would help also....

Lead by example right?

[Leonardo]

Paranoid Android, on 10 April 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Actually the history of the early church (early being circa pre-8th Century AD, give or take a couple of centuries), women were given new Rights and freedoms that was unprecedented.  In these earliest days, women were for the first time allowed to worship alongside men as equals.  Women were given a voice and people such as Priscilla and Junia, mentioned in the New Testament) were key figures in the early Christian movement, ministering God's word to others.  Unfortunately, as the church grew in power, so it grew in its lust to maintain hold on its power and dominate.  Thus turning into the Middle Ages (the period you studied) Rights were subsequently taken away from women and they became property, and denigrated by men.  It's a totally different picture in the Middle Ages to how Christianity originally begun.

Just thought I'd bring that up

That is a slight misrepresentation of the situation, PA. In ancient Rome (from where we see the early Christian Church largely being developed as per Paul's ministry), there were numerous deities worshipped and some of those were worshipped by men, while others were worshipped by women. Subsequently, these 'gender-specific deities' developed gender-specific priesthoods. However, there was no 'rule' or law forbidding women from worshipping.

In a monotheism, there is of course no scope for deities that may be worshipped separately by men or women. Thus, early Christianity had to make a compromise towards allowing women to worship the (male) God, or risk losing a substantial proportion of it's early devotees/convertees. This was not a "right" granted to women they had not previously enjoyed.

There is no evidence that the early Christian Church embraced allowing women into it's ranks as the equals of men, indeed the admonition against women entering into the priesthood would suggest otherwise.

Edited by Leonardo, 10 April 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[ZaraKitty]

In order to control the world, you must control what the world wants. Everybody wants women. for sex, comfort, caring, love, they raised us, gave us life, nurtured us and if the church holds power over women by not letting them progress in society then they hold the keys to the world. So by keeping women in the kitchen they keep their place in power.

Phew, the conspirasist in me is happy now xP

[Beckys_Mom]

A sexist male will say - It should not be allowed


A decent perosn will say - Why not?  I say go for it...  God doesn't care who does it

Others would not care...each to their own

Like I said  decent folks will not care or discriminate

In general ....I do not see ANY point in trying to excuse   your own  discriminations..... If you are sexist and show it... Don't excuse it...  Well you can try  IF you think there are stupid people that will believe you

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 10 April 2012 - 02:07 PM.