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Pope reaffirms ban on women priests


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#16    Beany

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

If someone is called to be God's representative on earth, and act as a spiritual leader, I find it impossible to believe that God would want that person to stay in the background if that person is female. And when an institution such as the Catholic Church denies women this opportunity, based on the bible & history, I have to believe it has much more to do with power and bias that the sacred. I believe we're all equal in the eyes of God, however, sometimes mankind seems to be partially blind, at will. If there is a God, I don't believe she would want me to be less than I can be.


#17    glorybebe

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 10 April 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

I have checked it out.  And in the earliest days (aka, the centuries immediately after Christ) women were given Rights previously unheard of.  When Christianity became the "Official Religion" (4th-5th Centuries) even then women largely retained those Rights.  Then as the Church gained in power and influence, so they grew in their desire for more power and more influence, and slowly the Rights of women were taken away.  By the time the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church split, the Rights of women were virtually non-existent.  None of that takes away from the early centuries of Christianity when women were given greater Rights than they had previously had.

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Well, what you read was totally opposite of the books used in my University  course.  Women lost rights once Christianity came to be.  What ever, you believe what you read, I will believe what I read.  We differ in our opinions. :yes:

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#18    Rafterman

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:10 PM

View Postjugoso, on 09 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

The older I get, The harder it is for me to "swallow" statements such as those above. I find it to be "out-of-date" and also quite insulting to women.

It's just like the Church's positions on homosexuality, abortion, birth control, etc., etc. - if you don't agree with it, don't be a Catholic.

Pretty simple actually.

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#19    Paranoid Android

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:49 PM

View Postglorybebe, on 10 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Well, what you read was totally opposite of the books used in my University  course.  Women lost rights once Christianity came to be.  What ever, you believe what you read, I will believe what I read.  We differ in our opinions. :yes:
I don't think we differ as much as you think.  I agree that when "Christianity came to be" women did lose rights, but when did this happen?  Christianity has existed since 35 AD.  The State-endorsed religion of Christianity has existed since the 4th Century AD (give or take). And the denomination known as the "Roman Catholic Church" has existed since the 10th Century AD.  You said your course was based on medieval history, which covers a period approximately from the 8th-16th Century (give or take a century, depending on who you talk to).  I simply addressed the treatment of women in Christianity before the time of your study and expertise.  

I do not deny that women's Rights were taken away.  I'm just going by my knowledge of history that said Rights were taken away sometime between the 5th and the 10th Century.  And even if they were taken away in the 4th Century (which would contradict my study that I have conducted) it does not take away from the first three centuries of Christian faith from the 1st-3rd Centuries, AD.  

Any info to the contrary, feel free to share :tu:

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#20    Sakari

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:55 PM

View Postglorybebe, on 10 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Well, what you read was totally opposite of the books used in my University  course.  Women lost rights once Christianity came to be.  What ever, you believe what you read, I will believe what I read.  We differ in our opinions. :yes:



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#21    Beany

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:20 PM

There is an assumption that what the Church decided was what God wanted. I question that assumption. Given the history of the RCC, i.e. Malleus Maleficarum, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Childrens Crusade, the opposition to birth control, the failure to deal effectively with child-molesting priests, etc. it is my opinion that what God may want and what the church wants are sometimes two different things. Perhaps the RCC has accomplished some great things, and brings succor to many, but literally millions of lives have been lost because of, at the very least, bad decision-making. This seems to be another one of those poor decisions. I am capable of rational, reasonable, critical thinking, and I won't suppress that for any person or institution.


#22    Star of the Sea

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:54 PM

View Postjugoso, on 09 April 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Sakari
I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

They are:
A record 87,000 Austrians left the Church in 2010, many in reaction to sexual abuse scandals.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

Yes.

The Catholic Church teaches that it has no authority to allow women to become priests because Jesus Christ willingly chose only men as his apostles when he instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.

Star of the Sea
I'm a Catholic female who doesn't find it insulting, infact I don't know any Catholic females who do

Perhaps because many women raised Catholic have changed to more progressive religions which have no hierarchy based on gender. Would it be too forward of me to ask what generation you are from and whether you were raised catholic or converted by choice as an adult ?


Hi Jugoso,

I'm a cradle Catholic... born 1960 (:P ) I'm not sure your comment that "many woman raised Catholic have progressed to different religions with no hierarchy based on gender" rings true. Look at what is happening in the Church of England because of woman being ordained, they are coming over to the Catholic Church in their droves!

Also Catholic schools are thriving... my girls age 21, 19 and 14 see no problem with woman not being ordained into the RCC! Jesus knew what he was doing at the time of choosing his Apostles... or don't you think he had the foresight to see that times would change?

edit: to add a link on the RCC reason for not ordaining woman

http://www.catholic....-the-priesthood

Edited by Star of the Sea, 10 April 2012 - 08:10 PM.

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#23    The Unseen

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:26 PM

I am not a church goer,corse I don.t trust catholic religion anyway nor do I like the Poop,oops I mean the Pope.Still I don't or wont listen to women preach,To me I feel that religion is false and evil for they allow one to worship Idols' and they took books from the bible out and placed their own books in it,In my opinion I really don't care what they do as long as they keep that stuff away from me.I am all for the women movement,They want Equil rights and all that stuff,Good I have no problem treating them like they want to be treated,They should have every right to do what they want,But they should also get the same rewards and punishments the men do.But as for not letting them be preachers,Hey If they want to follow that religion and not be allowed to preach,then I think they should do what they are told to do"YEAH RIGHT"(cence when do women listen to men anyway) Hey Im being sarcastic in this post so I dont want any of you bleeding heart crybabies to take me serious and hate me for the crap I just posted.In reality Women should have the right to do what ever their heart's desire.If it were not for some women in this world we would not be here.Message to the Pope:Dude......You blow chunks.May the fleas of a thousand Camels infest your arm pits.


#24    Beany

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:03 AM

The argument doesn't follow: All the apostles were men, so therefore, women can't perform holy sacrament. As for people deserting the Anglican church in droves because women can be ordained, it's still gender bias, whether people are deserting in droves or not. Just because a large group of people behave in a certain manner or hold certain beliefs in common doesn't justify it.


#25    Leonardo

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:40 AM

View PostStar of the Sea, on 10 April 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Hi Jugoso,

I'm a cradle Catholic... born 1960 (:P ) I'm not sure your comment that "many woman raised Catholic have progressed to different religions with no hierarchy based on gender" rings true. Look at what is happening in the Church of England because of woman being ordained, they are coming over to the Catholic Church in their droves!

Also Catholic schools are thriving... my girls age 21, 19 and 14 see no problem with woman not being ordained into the RCC! Jesus knew what he was doing at the time of choosing his Apostles... or don't you think he had the foresight to see that times would change?

edit: to add a link on the RCC reason for not ordaining woman

http://www.catholic....-the-priesthood

Without making this a personal criticism, Star, as it may be applied (imo) to any Catholic woman who feels as your daughters do, do you not consider this [the highlighted] may be a result of indoctrination, rather than reason?

Edited by Leonardo, 11 April 2012 - 07:41 AM.

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#26    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:50 AM

View PostThe Unseen, on 10 April 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I am not a church goer,corse I don.t trust catholic religion anyway nor do I like the Poop,oops I mean the Pope.Still I don't or wont listen to women preach,To me I feel that religion is false and evil for they allow one to worship Idols' and they took books from the bible out and placed their own books in it,In my opinion I really don't care what they do as long as they keep that stuff away from me.I am all for the women movement,They want Equil rights and all that stuff,Good I have no problem treating them like they want to be treated,They should have every right to do what they want,But they should also get the same rewards and punishments the men do.But as for not letting them be preachers,Hey If they want to follow that religion and not be allowed to preach,then I think they should do what they are told to do"YEAH RIGHT"(cence when do women listen to men anyway) Hey Im being sarcastic in this post so I dont want any of you bleeding heart crybabies to take me serious and hate me for the crap I just posted.In reality Women should have the right to do what ever their heart's desire.If it were not for some women in this world we would not be here.Message to the Pope:Dude......You blow chunks.May the fleas of a thousand Camels infest your arm pits.
Haha, your comments should not be offensive. You are a true feminist. A rare thing even in the feminist movement. Good job.

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#27    Rlyeh

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:21 AM

I have little problem with it (then again I'm atheist). Basically the Church is a group with rules, if the leader(s) don't want someone to hold a position based on race or sex, thats their decision, if it paints them in a bad light so be it.

A more extreme example would be something like the KKK.


#28    Mr Supertypo

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:50 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 10 April 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

A sexist male will say - It should not be allowed


A decent perosn will say - Why not?  I say go for it...  God doesn't care who does it

Others would not care...each to their own

Like I said  decent folks will not care or discriminate

In general ....I do not see ANY point in trying to excuse   your own  discriminations..... If you are sexist and show it... Don't excuse it...  Well you can try  IF you think there are stupid people that will believe you

Im afraid its more complex than that. There are theological reason about why women cant, and its not something that can be changed overnight or based on the caprice of a pope.

It will take many years to figure it out and maybe it will never happen, without changing the core of the RCC. But at least its not a problem unique to Catholics.

View PostStar of the Sea, on 10 April 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Hi Jugoso,

I'm a cradle Catholic... born 1960 (:P ) I'm not sure your comment that "many woman raised Catholic have progressed to different religions with no hierarchy based on gender" rings true. Look at what is happening in the Church of England because of woman being ordained, they are coming over to the Catholic Church in their droves!

Also Catholic schools are thriving... my girls age 21, 19 and 14 see no problem with woman not being ordained into the RCC! Jesus knew what he was doing at the time of choosing his Apostles... or don't you think he had the foresight to see that times would change?

edit: to add a link on the RCC reason for not ordaining woman

http://www.catholic....-the-priesthood


Good link thanxs for posting

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#29    eight bits

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:01 AM

Leo and Star

Quote

Without making this a personal criticism, Star, as it may be applied (imo) to any Catholic woman who feels as your daughters do, do you not consider this [the highlighted] may be a result of indoctrination, rather than reason?
I am unsure how reason would determine this contrary to Star's and her daughters' position, nor why the only alternative basis for preference on offer is indoctrination.

A priest in any religion that has them is an officially designated presider over a religious sacrifice. It is a role, and the principal criterion for fitness is ritual appropriateness. Now, there are other apsects of the job in the Roman Catholic case, such as a limit to how high any woman can rise in church management because only priests can be top management. But the core job is to play an assigned role in the re-enactment of the events of Jesus' Last Supper.

The producer of the re-enactment, the Church, wants to cast a man in this role. How is this different in rationality from a producer of The Tempest auditioning only male actors for the role of Prospero?

Surely reason does not support the inability of actresses to discharge the role adequately. Helen Mirren did a great job as "Prospero."

Actually, though, she played Prospera, not Prospero. It's a different work when a woman plays the part than when a man does. And it would be different still if she had played the role as if she were a man (as women have played Hamlet, as it is written, and Dame Mirren has expressed some hope that she might yet do). The producer may have a preference about which Tempest she wishes to stage, and the foundation for that preference may be rational.

Gender matters in the theater and on film. Even in jurisdictions where gender discrimination in employment is closely regulated, gender distinctions in casting decisions are usually protected as reflecting a bona fide job qualification.

How could gender not matter in a situation where the audience believes that they are not merely spectators at a re-enactment, but participants witnessing the prelude to a literal indwelling of God within themselves? They are apt to be offended that I mentioned theater in the same paragraph as this, which for them so transcends any other re-enactment.

Benedict is a bureaucrat, and gave a bureaucrat's (or worse, a lawyer's) answer to a fundamental question about his faith and its ritual repertoire. Maybe Star and her daughters gave a congregant's answer. There's an argument for management reform in that, but not so much an argument for women to serve as Catholic or Orthodox priests.

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#30    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

View Post~C.S.M~, on 11 April 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Im afraid its more complex than that. There are theological reason about why women cant, and its not something that can be changed overnight or based on the caprice of a pope.

It will take many years to figure it out and maybe it will never happen, without changing the core of the RCC. But at least its not a problem unique to Catholics.


You'd nearly think the pope  or any Christian  leader has NEVER made changes  eh?   Trust me, they will change what they want to change... Women have been trying to become clergy for many years.. it is not some over night decision .. Stubbornness and  sexism will prevent it... Some Church leader's allow it...some wont..  

Fact is.. if they wish to keep it all male, it still is sexist .. and  not wanting to change is stubborn...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 11 April 2012 - 02:00 PM.

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