84 replies to this topic

[eight bits]

Chloe

Quote

but if you are so convinced Mary was an apostle, just based on John 20, no secret Gnostic text required;

Both the Roman and Eastern churches are on board with this one. The Orthodox are just as patriarchal as Roman Catholics, and also have a male-only priesthood. The Magdalene is a highly venerated saint in their rota, and her liturgical titles include apostolic status, no ifs ands or buts.

The key thing is that an apostle isn't a priest. So fas as we know, Paul wasn't a priest, either. His 1 Corintians 11 depicts the Eucharist as an already established ritual. Paul writes a lengthy description, complete except for one thing: who presides. There may not even have been a full-time status of "someone who regularly presides" in his churches. Maybe people took turns. Maybe everybody performed the ritual for themselves or their family. Paul just doesn't say.

Which I think brings us to this:

Quote

You kind of lost me here, I'm sorry

No, I'm sorry. I hope I did better at rebutting the claim that there was no reason than I did at explaining what the reason was .

We know the sacrifice was performed from the beginning, so there was such a thing as a priest, if only for each time the sacrifice was actually being performed. We don't know whether or not its performance was a special office for the earliest Christians.

We know that there was always something special about the status of Apostle within the movement. It wasn't necessarily the status of being a full-time priest. Whatever the priestly office was, it wasn't necessarily confined to the Apostles and their pupils.

There isn't really a contradiction, then, between recognizing the Magdalene's unique stature within the earliest Christianity and yet not imputing priesthood to her.

As always, when I explain what I think a position is, it doesn't mean I agree with the position. On this particular matter, I don't have a vote anyway. It doesn't really matter what I think. For what it's worth, then, I think Mary from Magdala rocked. If I had to guess Jesus' intention, I'd have guessed he was down with Mary offering the sacrifice in his memory.

But I relaize I can't rigorously conclude that simply from her having other distinctions.

[Copen]

eight bits, on 13 April 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Chloe


Both the Roman and Eastern churches are on board with this one. The Orthodox are just as patriarchal as Roman Catholics, and also have a male-only priesthood. The Magdalene is a highly venerated saint in their rota, and her liturgical titles include apostolic status, no ifs ands or buts.

The key thing is that an apostle isn't a priest. So fas as we know, Paul wasn't a priest, either. His 1 Corintians 11 depicts the Eucharist as an already established ritual. Paul writes a lengthy description, complete except for one thing: who presides. There may not even have been a full-time status of "someone who regularly presides" in his churches. Maybe people took turns. Maybe everybody performed the ritual for themselves or their family. Paul just doesn't say.

Which I think brings us to this:


No, I'm sorry. I hope I did better at rebutting the claim that there was no reason than I did at explaining what the reason was .

We know the sacrifice was performed from the beginning, so there was such a thing as a priest, if only for each time the sacrifice was actually being performed. We don't know whether or not its performance was a special office for the earliest Christians.

We know that there was always something special about the status of Apostle within the movement. It wasn't necessarily the status of being a full-time priest. Whatever the priestly office was, it wasn't necessarily confined to the Apostles and their pupils.

There isn't really a contradiction, then, between recognizing the Magdalene's unique stature within the earliest Christianity and yet not imputing priesthood to her.

As always, when I explain what I think a position is, it doesn't mean I agree with the position. On this particular matter, I don't have a vote anyway. It doesn't really matter what I think. For what it's worth, then, I think Mary from Magdala rocked. If I had to guess Jesus' intention, I'd have guessed he was down with Mary offering the sacrifice in his memory.

But I relaize I can't rigorously conclude that simply from her having other distinctions.

Yes, an apostle is more authoritative than a priest. An apostle is a messenger who is commissioned and sent by God Himself. The apostles were not all male. The entire 120 in the upper room on Pentecost were "in the apostleship." All 120 of them received the baptism of the Holy Ghost which gave them power from God. Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the other women were among the 120 "in the apostleship."
God bless us all

[TheNightOwl]

Beckys_Mom, on 11 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

You'd nearly think the pope  or any Christian  leader has NEVER made changes  eh?   Trust me, they will change what they want to change... Women have been trying to become clergy for many years.. it is not some over night decision .. Stubbornness and  sexism will prevent it... Some Church leader's allow it...some wont..  

Fact is.. if they wish to keep it all male, it still is sexist .. and  not wanting to change is stubborn...

We can't just say that everyone who wants to keep the priesthood male is sexist. Sure, maybe some of those people are sexist, but there are other people who believe for theological reasons that God has set different roles for men and women....that idea is not sexist at all. Saying that is sexist is like saying the idea that only women can get pregnant is sexist.

[Beckys_Mom]

TheNightOwl, on 13 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

We can't just say that everyone who wants to keep the priesthood male is sexist. Sure, maybe some of those people are sexist, but there are other people who believe for theological reasons that God has set different roles for men and women....that idea is not sexist at all.

In my opinion, those that created the male only rules from the very  beginning, were sexist...  

The Catholic church has  so many strict rules and some of those they have broken themselves... And they wonder why  a movement of protestantism  was ever formed?  

Quote

       Saying that is sexist is like saying   the idea that only women can get pregnant is sexist.                      

..
Saying only women  can get pregnant is sexist?   So pointing out a biological  fact of life ........is n ow sexist?.... And you use this an a logical analogy?  Are you serious? ......Hence why I enlarge the font in your post to see if I read that correctly !

I'll tell you something for real...I have just under two weks left of my own pregnany... And trust me.. what I would give just to hand it all over to my husband for him to take  his share of the pains and sickness I have went though  LOL....  IF only...He said he would but see   biologically  it cannot be...  I am happy enough  because it will be over soon...But there were times when I WISH  my husband can share my pregnancy  

Quick question............Why? It has nothing to do with  making  distinctions   on jobs that both men and women can actually do... So again I have to ask - Why use such a poor analogy?




Anything in bold or CAPS is only to lay emphasis..I do it in all my posts..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 13 April 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Beany]

Patriarchal systems do tend to favor men, don't they? And it's always the men explaining & defining the proper role of the female gender to women. I choose to define myself in accordance with my beliefs, experiences, and common sense, education, & whatever wisdom I've attained, without needing anyone's approval or consent.

[ChloeB]

eight bits, on 13 April 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Chloe


Both the Roman and Eastern churches are on board with this one. The Orthodox are just as patriarchal as Roman Catholics, and also have a male-only priesthood. The Magdalene is a highly venerated saint in their rota, and her liturgical titles include apostolic status, no ifs ands or buts.

The key thing is that an apostle isn't a priest. So fas as we know, Paul wasn't a priest, either. His 1 Corintians 11 depicts the Eucharist as an already established ritual. Paul writes a lengthy description, complete except for one thing: who presides. There may not even have been a full-time status of "someone who regularly presides" in his churches. Maybe people took turns. Maybe everybody performed the ritual for themselves or their family. Paul just doesn't say.

Which I think brings us to this:


No, I'm sorry. I hope I did better at rebutting the claim that there was no reason than I did at explaining what the reason was .

We know the sacrifice was performed from the beginning, so there was such a thing as a priest, if only for each time the sacrifice was actually being performed. We don't know whether or not its performance was a special office for the earliest Christians.

We know that there was always something special about the status of Apostle within the movement. It wasn't necessarily the status of being a full-time priest. Whatever the priestly office was, it wasn't necessarily confined to the Apostles and their pupils.

There isn't really a contradiction, then, between recognizing the Magdalene's unique stature within the earliest Christianity and yet not imputing priesthood to her.

As always, when I explain what I think a position is, it doesn't mean I agree with the position. On this particular matter, I don't have a vote anyway. It doesn't really matter what I think. For what it's worth, then, I think Mary from Magdala rocked. If I had to guess Jesus' intention, I'd have guessed he was down with Mary offering the sacrifice in his memory.

But I relaize I can't rigorously conclude that simply from her having other distinctions.

Every time we (Star, you, and I) get talking about Catholic stuff, I get dizzy, lol.  I appreciate you both being patient and trying to explain.  Seems there are some differing opinions and that's all good.  You talk about Orthodox a lot and a few years ago, before I came on here, when I was a really little spitfire and argued a lot, lol, but I was kind of a jerk, but I knew these guys that tried, (without much luck I might add) to explain everything, but I was very the bible hates women kind of mode back then, but anyway, one of those guys was finishing up a degree in theology somewhere and his friend maybe had too or invested a lot of time, but they always praised the Orthodox Church, said it was the closest to what the church was meant to be, basically it had been far enough away from Rome to avoid a lot of the corruption and such and more in sync with I guess what you would call the intention of Jesus, more Jesus less politics I assume.

[Beckys_Mom]

ChloeB, on 13 April 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Every time we (Star, you, and I) get talking about Catholic stuff, I get dizzy, lol.

The thing about the Catholic church and growing up in it    I never knew anything else other than male priests.. I saw it as the norm and  believed that's how it was meant to be...  So you tend not to get bothered by it.. You just think  -Meh its how things are so be it......

I remember once when some women  from our church would go up to help the priest give  out the bread....I refused to take  it of the women...I would only take it from the priest ......I know  silly of me... but it was only because I  believed  women  at the time had no place.. It was always just MEN....


Once I leave the faith..I get to see it from the outside looking in.......I see a different picture .  

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 13 April 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[ChloeB]

Beckys_Mom, on 13 April 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

The thing about the Catholic church and growing up in it    I never knew anything else other than male priests.. I saw it as the norm and  believed that's how it was meant to be...  So you tend not to get bothered by it.. You just think  -Meh its how things are so be it......

I remember once when some women  from our church would go up to help the priest give  out the bread....I refused to take  it of the women...I would only take it from the priest ......I know  silly of me... but it was only because I  believed  women  at the time had no place.. It was always just MEN....


Once I leave the faith..I get to see it from the outside looking in.......I see a different picture .  

We hardly ever went to church, but if it was, it was Protestant.  I think I went to church with a few Catholic friends, maybe 2 or 3 times, and I don't remember ever seeing a nun up close, and then my brother got in a wreck and was in a Catholic hospital once and this is so dorky, but I got to see a nun up close and I was so excited!  Hahaha, I'm such a nerd, but she was hugging everyone because one boy had died in the wreck and I was all sitting up in my chair next to my mom by my brother's bed, hoping she'd hug me too, like I felt all special and blessed, like she had some magic, but there's something about the nuns, they just fascinate me.  To me, they are like little priestesses.  Usually the Catholics get a lot of crap for the how they are about Mary, and that's the think I like about it.  I must have been really bored, but once I came across this old show and what made me stop and watch but it was black and white and on the church channel and it was 2 kids, a Catholic boy and a Jewish girl, and they were trying to be friends and go to one another's churches and lots of problems came up, but the little Jewish girl looked up at the statue of Mary, and said she liked her.  I thought that was sweet.  I think it's a side of it all that the other's are missing, that big dad God or even Jesus, there's nothing more sacred than a mother and I like that about them, so with how they are about her, I can't say they are too sexist, at least they give more credit to that than the Protestants.  Good God, Martin Luther, what he said about women is terrible.

[Robbie333]

ChloeB, on 13 April 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

We hardly ever went to church, but if it was, it was Protestant.  I think I went to church with a few Catholic friends, maybe 2 or 3 times, and I don't remember ever seeing a nun up close, and then my brother got in a wreck and was in a Catholic hospital once and this is so dorky, but I got to see a nun up close and I was so excited!  Hahaha, I'm such a nerd, but she was hugging everyone because one boy had died in the wreck and I was all sitting up in my chair next to my mom by my brother's bed, hoping she'd hug me too, like I felt all special and blessed, like she had some magic, but there's something about the nuns, they just fascinate me.  To me, they are like little priestesses.  Usually the Catholics get a lot of crap for the how they are about Mary, and that's the think I like about it.  I must have been really bored, but once I came across this old show and what made me stop and watch but it was black and white and on the church channel and it was 2 kids, a Catholic boy and a Jewish girl, and they were trying to be friends and go to one another's churches and lots of problems came up, but the little Jewish girl looked up at the statue of Mary, and said she liked her.  I thought that was sweet.  I think it's a side of it all that the other's are missing, that big dad God or even Jesus, there's nothing more sacred than a mother and I like that about them, so with how they are about her, I can't say they are too sexist, at least they give more credit to that than the Protestants.  Good God, Martin Luther, what he said about women is terrible.

          Nuns can indeed be scary when you are young Choe. I got a kick out of what you said, Thanks for the smile. I stay out of these from now on but let me say this. The sisters of the church around the world do much good and sacrifice much. Wether you are Catholic like me or not just let me say how much they give to help the poor, down troddin, abused and so on.

[ChloeB]

Robbie333, on 13 April 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Nuns can indeed be scary when you are young Choe. I got a kick out of what you said, Thanks for the smile. I stay out of these from now on but let me say this. The sisters of the church around the world do much good and sacrifice much. Wether you are Catholic like me or not just let me say how much they give to help the poor, down troddin, abused and so on.

Yes, that's the kind you always see in movies, those kind with the rulers!  But this was a really nice one and kind of young, had a kind face and she just had a way with all of us.  I have to give a lot of respect to her and the ladies there going that all time in the face of death and grief day after day like that and not come off as insincere and truly help families deal with it and appear that they care, even to those like us who weren't Catholic, it didn't matter.

[Robbie333]

ChloeB, on 13 April 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Yes, that's the kind you always see in movies, those kind with the rulers!  But this was a really nice one and kind of young, had a kind face and she just had a way with all of us.  I have to give a lot of respect to her and the ladies there going that all time in the face of death and grief day after day like that and not come off as insincere and truly help families deal with it and appear that they care, even to those like us who weren't Catholic, it didn't matter.

        They will help anyone Chloe. This is what they have given their life to do, charity. Pray for them.

[jugoso]

Star of the Sea, on 10 April 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Hi Jugoso,

I'm a cradle Catholic... born 1960 ( ) I'm not sure your comment that "many woman raised Catholic have progressed to different religions with no hierarchy based on gender" rings true. Look at what is happening in the Church of England because of woman being ordained, they are coming over to the Catholic Church in their droves!

Also Catholic schools are thriving... my girls age 21, 19 and 14 see no problem with woman not being ordained into the RCC! Jesus knew what he was doing at the time of choosing his Apostles... or don't you think he had the foresight to see that times would change?

edit: to add a link on the RCC reason for not ordaining woman

http://www.catholic....-the-priesthood

Hi Star of te Sea  
sorry for getting back into this conversation so late....it´s been a busy week

Thanks for answering my questions and I found the link you provided interestin as well. I found an article about dissidents leaving te Church. It mentioned only about 600 but it´s a year old.

A first wave of about 600 Anglicans are officially leaving the Church of England in protest at the decision to ordain women as bishops.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12685062

Perhaps more ave left since then.

I was also unaware that the Catholic church had created a new "branch " to accommodate them:

"They will be enrolled as candidates to join a new branch of the Catholic Church - the Ordinariate - which has been specially created for them."

It is also stated in the article:
"The group leaving the Church of England includes 20 members of the clergy"

but then mentions

"14 Roman Catholic priests had converted to the Church of England in the past five years."

Seems to be a two-way street.

My father was Catholic and my Mom Anglican. All of the kids were raised Catholic but it was always a "treat" to be able to go to church with mom. To be honest, I never really found the services to be that much different   . The bonus was at the Anglican church You´d get to go up at communion time (this was before my first communion) and the priest would lay his hand on your head and say a little prayer. O yeah....and the wine. At the Anglican church all the parishioners got a glug of it while at the catholic mass only the priest.
   Anyway, I certainly respect your views although still am puzzled by tthe belief that men have some god-given  right to be closer to god.

HI CloeB!   Long time!!

I´m certainly with you in feeling tat te catholic church has used manipulation and control of information to p ut forth their message and slowly take-over others belifs. I just don´t trust it . I´ve discussed this issue here

http://www.unexplain...pic=220268&st=0

and really and truly question the validity of that event and how nicely it fit on top of their previous beliefs. Kind of a "bait & switch" IMO.


HI Beany!!    Just like ChloeB, i always follow your posts and think you are pretty much bang on.

And Leonardo....thanks for your well-written insights

[Meiliken]

Beckys_Mom, on 13 April 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

The thing about the Catholic church and growing up in it    I never knew anything else other than male priests.. I saw it as the norm and  believed that's how it was meant to be...  So you tend not to get bothered by it.. You just think  -Meh its how things are so be it......

I remember once when some women  from our church would go up to help the priest give  out the bread....I refused to take  it of the women...I would only take it from the priest ......I know  silly of me... but it was only because I  believed  women  at the time had no place.. It was always just MEN....


Once I leave the faith..I get to see it from the outside looking in.......I see a different picture .  

Aye, I saw forced indoctrination earlier in this thread and I think it somewhat links well with yours in my stance on it.  

If you teach a child that 1+1=3 from birth, and their entire mathematical structure hinges on this, no amount of factual proof will ever change their stance.  The same goes for religious brainwashing.  It is extremely difficult for a mind to break from that kind of "indoctrination".  I came from that myself so I know what you went through with such an eye opening experience.

People have a tendency to not question things out of pure laziness and go with the flow.  These are the people I call sheep.  

[ChloeB]

Robbie333, on 13 April 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

They will help anyone Chloe. This is what they have given their life to do, charity. Pray for them.

I shall give it a try, hopefully my heathen self, the prayers don't turn into curses.

[ChloeB]

jugoso, on 13 April 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

HI CloeB!   Long time!!

I´m certainly with you in feeling tat te catholic church has used manipulation and control of information to p ut forth their message and slowly take-over others belifs. I just don´t trust it . I´ve discussed this issue here

http://www.unexplain...pic=220268&st=0

and really and truly question the validity of that event and how nicely it fit on top of their previous beliefs. Kind of a "bait & switch" IMO.


HI Beany!!    Just like ChloeB, i always follow your posts and think you are pretty much bang on.

And Leonardo....thanks for your well-written insights

Hey Jugoso!!  Yes, long time!!  I am terrible with keeping up with everyone, but I see you post, I always look too, though I miss your groovy, spiritual post stuff.  That's what I like personally.  I feel I get too negative sometimes on here, lol.